About
Content
Store
Forum

Rebirth of Reason
War
People
Archives
Objectivism

Post to this threadMark all messages in this thread as readMark all messages in this thread as unread


Post 0

Friday, November 9, 2007 - 11:32amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
If at least part of consciousness is physical, as it obviously is, then why is it not conceivable that through some of its actions it should be able to alter the nature of existence?  However, Peikoff says in OPAR that "From the outset, consciousness presents itself as something specific--as a faculty of perceiving an object, not of creating or changing it."
He also says "Consiousness, therefore, is only a faculty of awareness.  It is the power to grasp, to find out, to discover that which is.  It is not a power to alter or control the nature of its objects." 


Post 1

Friday, November 9, 2007 - 1:27pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Mr. Parker,

Your first quote is from a section in OPAR in which Peikoff is talking about a young child. It will be a while before the child learns it has the power to effect changes in its environment.

Your second quote is not much later. Though Peikoff has moved on to talking about adults as well, his main topic is still arguing in favor of the primacy of existence. But I do believe it would have been more accurate and less misleading to say, "Consciousness, therefore, is firstly a faculty of awareness." Also, qualifying his next two sentences with something like "in this role" would have been less misleading.

The point of your question is good. Consciousness can't alter the nature of our existence directly, but a part of consciousness is the control of our actions. Our hands are significant parts of such control, and with them we do significantly alter the nature of our existence. When a young child learns this, just watch him/her do so!

(Edited by Merlin Jetton on 11/09, 1:39pm)


Post 2

Friday, November 9, 2007 - 1:40pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Merlin,
I was not talking about our ability to affect our environment through the use of our hands our our feet or whatever; I was referring to the possibility that through our becoming conscious of something that we affect that something.  My argument is that since at least part of our CONSCIOUSNESS is physical, and since part of it therefore perceives existence through material action, why is it inconceivable that our consciosness could not affect that nature of its objects through becoming conscious of them.


Post 3

Friday, November 9, 2007 - 1:58pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Consciousness directs action through physical existants, such as your body, in the same way it arises from the same.  There is no evidence that it can exist outside of a physical constraint, therefore it also cannot exert an influence without the use of physical, and therefore observable, methods.

Post 4

Friday, November 9, 2007 - 2:30pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
My argument is that since at least part of our CONSCIOUSNESS is physical, and since part of it therefore perceives existence through material action, why is it inconceivable that our consciosness could not affect that nature of its objects through becoming conscious of them.
We have afferent nerves and efferent nerves. Each is one way. They would need to be two way if I get the gist of your question. If instead you are talking something like the quantum world, in which case our effect on the situation is via hands or physical instruments, not via the paths of incoming sensory signals.


Post 5

Saturday, November 10, 2007 - 6:50pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
then why is it not conceivable that through some of its actions it should be able to alter the nature of existence?
What kind of alterations are you thinking of?

Our consciousness is a continual neural computation. One is using a neural network with various algorithms for sensing & self reflection, memory recall, simulating/predicting, considering actions and creating plans, executing plans. All done though physical processes and matter. Neurons are a kind of cell that communicate with electrical spikes. Algorithms and memory are adjusted by altering the influence of connected neurons.

And neurons control muscles with electrical spikes. Neurons in the retina convert light intensity into spike rate. Similar neurons exist for sound, pressure, temperature, taste, ...

In 20 years I wouldn't be surprised if many people communicated and controlled things by thought alone. Mainstream. Currently we have monkeys and people controlling very simple machines and mouse cursors.

Sanction: 10, No Sanction: 0
Sanction: 10, No Sanction: 0
Sanction: 10, No Sanction: 0
Post 6

Thursday, November 15, 2007 - 12:28pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit

Consciousness is a Relation, Not an Entity

Consciousness is not an entity, but a relationship between certain types of entities and their environments.  (This environment includes the self as well.)  So it is a category mistake to say that "part of our CONSCIOUSNESS is physical."  Bodies are physical entities.  Consciousness is not a body, but a relationship between a body of a certain type and certain existents.  (I would describe consciousness as an harmonic relation between an entity with a nervous system and its environment by which it apprehends the forms of existents without assimilating their substance.)  Consciousness is not "partly" physical.  One wouldn't say that equality or fatherhood are bodies or entities - they too are relations between certain types of existents.

One can certainly say that conscious entities affect existence, but it is the bodies that are those entities which effect changes in other bodies.  A body - a physical entity - is identical to the sum of all its properties and relations.  It is our use of language and abstraction which allows us to conceive of certain of those properties and relations like consciousness apart from the entities which they comprise.  But in reality you are your body.  You can no more separate your consciousness from your body than you can separate your height or your position from your body.

Ted Keer



Post 7

Wednesday, November 28, 2007 - 6:40amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Consciousness is in my opinion completely physical. Consciousness much like reality is the ability to percieve things in a physical manner. People in comas are alive but they are not conscious. They are not conscious for one reason. They cannot react to physical stimuli. Also i think alterations of reality are possible. All things relative to the senses are all physical matter. Much lke the human body. Your mind is in synch with the humn body. Your mind singles the body out as your own, and as your indentity. Thus allowing you to control it. This is done by sending little signals of energy to various parts using your mind. I believe that if singled out with the mind, something like a spoon or a book could be moved or bent. Everyone has chi energy. It can be released or stored. This is also why levitation is possible. We are not "stuck" to the ground by "gravity". Our chi flows through our feet thus holding us to the earth with our own personal strengths. The reason we walk on the ground is because we give ourselves that physical border. You must remember you cannot have physical without mental. Mental created what we know as physical. Physical has no set rules because mental has no set rules. The mind is ever expanding, wich means that "YOUR" interpritaion of "YOUR" physical world is only yours to decide.

Sanction: 5, No Sanction: 0
Sanction: 5, No Sanction: 0
Post 8

Wednesday, November 28, 2007 - 3:27pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Joe:

This troll might just qualify for a ban, setting a new record for least number of qualifying posts!

Regards,
--
Jeff

Sanction: 5, No Sanction: 0
Sanction: 5, No Sanction: 0
Post 9

Wednesday, November 28, 2007 - 4:29pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Most honerable Yasashii,

Sir, this is an Objectivist forum.  We enjoy, and have found the secret of life through the works of one Ayn Rand.  Some of us climbed very high mountains to find her. Some of us found her while sitting under a tree.  Others found her while sitting lotus style on the sofa, or while sick in bed, or in an airplane, train, or automobile.

I encourage you to seek out Ayn Rand so you may enjoy our company and avoid our complaints.

Ooooooooooooohmmmmmmm


Post 10

Wednesday, November 28, 2007 - 6:18pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
I'm surprised that nobody has yet drug in Heisenburg's uncertainty principle or the collapse of the wave forms into eigenvalues...  This was the subject of that incredibly stupid movie, "Everything you know is wrong," or some such title.  It made me physically ill to see how thoroughly they managed to trash objectivity via pseudo-scientific crap that no reputable scientist would have spent two seconds on. 

It is certainly true that every sensation is, in some sense, an interaction, and that all interactions go both ways.  I.e., we do often minutely change the things that we sense thru the act of sensing.  In the case of touch, this is obvious, to the degree that we might actually break or seriously modify something through a miscalculation in how hard to touch it as part of our investigation of its nature.  However, it is also true as a general principle in the sense that we can only sense something via some interaction with it that partakes of its identity. 

Consider a simple one-celled organism.  It survives and prospers by virtue of the fact that through the luck of many trials and errors it has evolved mechanisms that switch its behavior according to simple signals, chemical or electromagnetic, that correspond to the same general states - food, danger, etc. - again and again.  The ratio of energy output for the identifying signal to the energy gain from eating the food or avoiding the danger has to be rather high in order for this to work, and it could thus only work in a universe in which the same signal corresponds to the same state a very high percentage of the time.

It is that "energy leverage" which is crucial for all forms of self-replicating order in the universe, especially life, and most especially consciousness.  It is only the fact that the universe is orderly, in the sense of there being a finite number of recognizeable classes of events, attributes, etc., that life and consciousness are possible. 

If we had to fully interact with every entity we encountered, to the point of destruction, as would be the case if every entity was completely unique, then there would be no room for life or consciousness.  And, to the point, if our interactions were such that we altered the nature of everything we encountered significantly by our very perception of it, then an equivalent problem would arise.  I.e., we could never know anything.  The universe and our knowledge of it would be a slippery fog that never quite congealed to the point that we could dependably interact with it.

It is the very fact that things do have stable attributes, that we do not alter them significantly in most cases by our act of sensing, perceiving and identifying them, that makes knowledge, consciousness and life possible at all.


Post 11

Wednesday, November 28, 2007 - 6:31pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
There is no easier way to change someone's behavior than to let them know that you are watching them.  This does not work so well with rocks.

I know that the cats who share our home are conscious.  I do not know if they are conscious of being conscious.  I suspect not.  If I stand at the door and say "Out?" they will decide.  But if I say "How's it going, old cat?"  I do not get much response, mostly the same blank stare that is their default mode.

The problem of measuring a photon begs a verb to go with its object.

Even if your being conscious of another existent could change it, existence would still exist.  The change (such as it may be) would still be what it must be according to its nature and the nature of your awareness.

An axiom is that which cannot be denied without using it.  The primacy of existence cannot be questioned.

(Edited by Michael E. Marotta on 11/28, 6:33pm)


Post 12

Wednesday, November 28, 2007 - 7:26pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
hmm, your words are all interesting however some of you seem to be to close minded. I am not bashing nor confronting your views. I am simply expressing my own. I admit when i am wrong because i like to learn.  I am seventeen. However i am not a child. I desire interaction with other adults, not children. So let us all be adults and learn from one another. I honestly do not know what an objectivist is. I know myself and that is the best i can do. I live my life through my benevolance. Label me what you must. As i said before i am not trying to argue however i do not take answers so easily. I like to know who why what when and where. I like to truly grasp concepts and learn them. Do not blindly tell me i am wrong. Explain to me your side and teach as you would like to be taught.  

Post 13

Thursday, November 29, 2007 - 8:39pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
I suggest that you google on "Brady apologetics."  His proof of the existence of God is wrong; however, for the first several pages of it, before he gets to the God parts, he really lays out the case for objective reality as coherently and convincingly as any that I've ever seen.  What he is using is basically a neo-aristotelian argument, developed, I believe, by the Thomist scholastic philosophers in the middle ages.  It is quite brilliant and intellectually enjoyable and you will have great fun with it, I think.  Then, when you have some basic background in the line of thinking that assumes existence, consciousness and identity and the reasoning behind that position, please come back and put forth your best objections.  I think that you will find a much better reception then. 

It would also help if you read Rand, expecially "Atlas Shrugged," as her work and ideas are the central focus of this discussion site, but I do suggest Brady, as his specific ontological argumentation is presented in a more coherent and focussed way than the equivalent arguments put forth by Rand in the voice of one of her characters, as she is covering a lot more than just the basic ontology there.


Post to this thread


User ID Password or create a free account.