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Post 20

Friday, May 2, 2008 - 9:07pmSanction this postReply
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Bill,

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What is the evil act? Suppose I point a gun at you that I know is loaded and pull the trigger, but the gun jams. Am I culpable for an evil act? Yes. What is the evil act? The evil act is my attempt to murder you. And that's true even if you get hit and killed by a truck at the same time.
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Yes, that's how the law views it.

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I didn't cause your death -- the truck did -- but I am still culpable, because I was the cause of an evil act. My attempt to murder you is the evil act for which I am culpable, even though it didn't harm you -- didn't actually cause your death.
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This is not how the law views it. And it doesn't hold up. Either you were a causal link in the crime, or you weren't. Either you committed a crime, or merely attempted to commit a crime. Your act is evil if is coupled with an intent to bring about a harm. In legalese: you must have a mens rea concurrent with an actus rheus.

Crimes further require causation. Attempt crimes -- like your truck-beating-the-gun or trigger jam scenarios -- do NOT have a causation element. The overdetermination bit doesn't come up with attempt crimes.

Jordan

Post 21

Saturday, May 3, 2008 - 3:19pmSanction this postReply
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I wrote,

=========
What is the evil act? Suppose I point a gun at you that I know is loaded and pull the trigger, but the gun jams. Am I culpable for an evil act? Yes. What is the evil act? The evil act is my attempt to murder you. And that's true even if you get hit and killed by a truck at the same time.
=========

Jordan replied, "Yes, that's how the law views it."

I continued,

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I didn't cause your death -- the truck did -- but I am still culpable, because I was the cause of an evil act. My attempt to murder you is the evil act for which I am culpable, even though it didn't harm you -- didn't actually cause your death.
========

Jordan replied, "This is not how the law views it. And it doesn't hold up. Either you were a causal link in the crime, or you weren't. Either you committed a crime, or merely attempted to commit a crime..."

Jordan, I think you misunderstood me. I wasn't saying that I was culpable for your death. Obviously, you died, not by my hand, but from being hit by the truck. I was saying that I was culpable for the attempt to kill you. But that culpability is still actionable. I can be charged with a crime nonetheless -- the crime's being not a murder, but an attempted murder.

So, I don't see the problem. You were plainly NOT guilty of murder, but you WERE plainly guilty of attempted murder.

- Bill

Post 22

Saturday, May 3, 2008 - 10:59pmSanction this postReply
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Hi Bill,

I agree with what you're saying.

But it's sort of side steps the whole causation mess I wanted to talk about. I'm interested in the alternative to the "but for" test. The "but for" test becomes a problem with overdetermination, as in the case of the spy who dies of thirst in the desert after his water bottle is poisoned by one guy, then the bottle is hole-poked by another.

Jordan



Post 23

Sunday, May 4, 2008 - 5:17amSanction this postReply
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Jordan,

=========
I'm interested in the alternative to the "but for" test. The "but for" test becomes a problem with overdetermination, as in the case of the spy who dies of thirst in the desert after his water bottle is poisoned by one guy, then the bottle is hole-poked by another.
=========

Still? I thought I provided a solution to this "problem" -- just a couple of posts ago. What do you think, Jordan (or Bill), about my perfected "Law of Culpability" rubric?

Ed


Post 24

Tuesday, May 6, 2008 - 3:58pmSanction this postReply
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Ed,

Sorry. Bout to leave one job and start another. Very busy.

Quick answer -- Your reasonable expectation test suffices (e.g., it catches the poisoner AND the hole-poker, I think) and makes me wonder why you'd bother with the other 3 criteria. Who needs 'em when this handy one sufficies?

Then again, I wouldn't want to vest the outcome in a "reasonable person" or her or his expectations. "Reasonable expectations" are wrought with problems in tort law. It's not such a prominent concept in crim law, but if we dragged over there, I'm sure the problems would be quite similar. Too much to go into here. I'm sure a quick google of tort + "reasonable expectations" will spot you the tip of the iceberg.

That said, I'm realizing I'm far more interesting just in raw causal issues than in any legal quandary. Let's rest this thread, and perhaps given time, I'll pop out another.

Jordan


Post 25

Tuesday, May 6, 2008 - 6:49pmSanction this postReply
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Very well, Jordan.

Ed


Post 26

Wednesday, May 7, 2008 - 6:39pmSanction this postReply
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It is discouraging to see objectivists, of all people, stuck in this silly medieval model of thinking about issues such as "responsibility," "criminality," "justice..."

Justice is when I get and keep what I have earned.  It has nothing to do with causing pain to some other person, based on judging their character or lack thereof, and then figuring out how many months or years they should be locked up, or tortured, or killed.

In a just society, if someone attempted to murder another person and failed, and that fact was known in general, then the result would be that many doors would shut to that person, on the totally rational grounds that his or her behavior indicated a risk to others who chose to deal with him or her.  The object of the intended murder might also sue for damages, based on the actual level of risk they were subject to.  In general, life would become more expensive and less enjoyable for the would-be murderer, perhaps quite a lot so, depending upon the circumstances of the attempted murder.

The elements of character and responsibility play a role, not in some Alice in Wonderland search for the perfect "punishment" but rather as things to take into account in ones dealings with the person - or not.  On a more concrete basis than the preceding paragraph, assuming that we have a society in which people have the equivalent of a credit card, which specifies via a secure ID how much general insurance or bonding they carry to back up their Social Contract, which is my best bet for how human society will evolve in the near to mid term, then someone who attempted premeditated murder over a trivial cause would be paying very high insurance rates for a fairly low rating once the news made it to the insurance adjusters.

Such a person would be effectively excluded from a wide range of enjoyable and profitable social opportunities as a consequence of their poor character.  It would probably take years of righteous behavior and sign-offs by highly rated therapists to bring the premiums down and undo the loss.

On the other hand, if our murderer actually succeeded in killing his intended victim, then the victim's friends, relatives, business partners, employers, etc., would likely sue the murderer for their loss, and the fact of the murder having actually happened would likely carry more weight with the insurance agents than a mere attempt, even if the victim only escaped the attempt by pure dumb luck.  I.e., the murderer would be spending the rest of his or her life literally paying for his or her crime.


Post 27

Wednesday, May 7, 2008 - 8:29pmSanction this postReply
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ah yes - Eric Frank Russell's And Then there Were None....

Post 28

Thursday, May 8, 2008 - 5:45amSanction this postReply
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Reply to post 26.

See what Lysander Spooner, the American anarchist has to say about Justice.


http://www.panarchy.org/spooner/law.1882.html


Here is the first sentence from his work on Justice:

The science of mine and thine - the science of justice - is the science of all human rights: of all a man's rights of person and property; of all his rights to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.


Bob Kolker


Post 29

Thursday, May 8, 2008 - 8:11pmSanction this postReply
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Phil,

Until we arrive at that kind of Utopia (and we can get there), it's a little presumptuous for you to argue "all-the-way" against formal law like that. You remind me of Aristotle when he said that, if all men were friends, then there would be no need of justice.

Well, we're not all "friends" yet ... Buddy.

Ed

Post 30

Friday, May 9, 2008 - 4:44pmSanction this postReply
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Speaking of Mediaeval:

"In a just society, if someone attempted to murder another person and failed, and that fact was known in general, then the result would be that many doors would shut to that person, on the totally rational grounds that his or her behavior indicated a risk to others who chose to deal with him or her. The object of the intended murder might also sue for damages, based on the actual level of risk they were subject to. In general, life would become more expensive and less enjoyable for the would-be murderer, perhaps quite a lot so, depending upon the circumstances of the attempted murder."
- Phil O.

This is the same way ancient tribal Germans ran things. If you killed or wounded someone, and could afford it, you paid weregeld and "justice" was done. Of course, if you were poor or couldn't pay the "manprice" you might simply get executed. You also had to watch out for my family killing you. Blood feud was de rigeur. And what if the crime victim had no friends, no family, no resources to sue?

This is not utopian. It is historically ignorant armchair anarchism. It is barbarity.

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