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Post 0

Sunday, December 21, 2008 - 7:17pmSanction this postReply
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If the reason it is wrong to initiate force against others is that it impedes there ability to take life-furthering action, then why should one respect the life or property of someone who didn't want to live?  If someone actively sought ways to die and no longer wanted to live, for instance, could one not have the right to punch him in the face if this argument was true?  Or to take his property, or lock him up, etc... even if he had not violated the rights of anyone else?

Post 1

Sunday, December 21, 2008 - 9:05pmSanction this postReply
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There would be several problems with punching him in face. The first is that rights belong to person by virtue of being human. Humans to live, have specific requirements. It is from those requirements that we deduce rights. The right isn't a physical thing that lives in the person (regardless of his desire to live) - that would be an epistemological error referred to as intrincism. The rights live in the concept of human nature and apply equally to all humans. Also, his not wanting to live is most likely a psychological/emotional state and may not be equivalent to having moral permission to punch him - that is, he possesses the rights and has done nothing to give them up. Almost everyone I know or have known is less alive than they should or could be - but it doesn't mean their rights are only partial. And speaking on a practical level, we get great value out of delegating the use of force in all cases other than emergency use of self-defense, and out of the rule that no one should ever initiate force.

Post 2

Sunday, December 21, 2008 - 10:18pmSanction this postReply
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Who turned out the lights?

Sanction: 4, No Sanction: 0
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Post 3

Monday, December 22, 2008 - 10:07amSanction this postReply
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Christopher,

NIOF has more to do with the "Golden Rule" than that force "impedes their ability to take life-furthering action"..

See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethic_of_reciprocity

It also has to do with property rights. We own ourselves, our bodies, our thoughts, the creations of our minds and our hands. The value I place on what's mine is no ones business but mine.

If you are looking for justifications to punch someone in the face because their philosophy of life differs from your own you've come to the wrong place.

Post 4

Monday, December 22, 2008 - 1:11pmSanction this postReply
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Okay... so if someone wanted to die, you could not punch him in the face, but could you kill him?

Post 5

Monday, December 22, 2008 - 1:20pmSanction this postReply
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I think that you could kill him in a manner that was with his consent. Meaning you could assist him, not shoot him in the face from hiding while he checks his mail.

Post 6

Monday, December 22, 2008 - 1:48pmSanction this postReply
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And if he wants me to hide in the bushes?

Post 7

Monday, December 22, 2008 - 2:08pmSanction this postReply
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lol, I guess that would fall under the heading of him giving consent. Kind of like inspector cleusea and kato the butler. :)

Post 8

Monday, December 22, 2008 - 4:11pmSanction this postReply
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Christopher,

Sometimes optimizing well-being -- which I think is a preferable re-wording of your "life-furthering action" -- means choosing death over, say, a terminal and agonizingly painful illness. Choosing death does not necessarily equate to an open invitation to getting punched in the face, looted, or jailed. Those responses likely do not align with one's optimal well-being.

Jordan


Post 9

Monday, December 22, 2008 - 4:51pmSanction this postReply
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The problem with a supposed right to have someone kill you is not that it violates your rights, but that it poses an insuperable problem for a civil society. "Excuse me Mr. Simpson, we're arresting you for chopping your wife's head off. Oh, no, Mr. Darden. She said she wanted me to kill her. I will swear to that under oath. Oh, okay, if you had her consent, no problem..."

Post 10

Tuesday, December 23, 2008 - 7:03amSanction this postReply
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TK:  "The problem with a supposed right to have someone kill you is not that it violates your rights, but that it poses an insuperable problem for a civil society. "Excuse me Mr. Simpson, we're arresting you for chopping your wife's head off. Oh, no, Mr. Darden. She said she wanted me to kill her. I will swear to that under oath. Oh, okay, if you had her consent, no problem..."
That is a non-sequitar.  Certainly, if there is a line of reasoning, it must be presented more fully and consistently.
The problem with a supposed right to exchange corn for gold is not that it violates your rights, but that it poses an insuperable problem for a civil society. "Excuse me Mr. Simpson, we're arresting you for taking your wife's corn.  Oh, no, Mr. Darden. She said she accepted gold in exchange. I will swear to that under oath. Oh, okay, if you had her consent, no problem..."
My wife has a legally binding statement from me that no extraordinary measures are to be employed to keep me alive in the event that I cannot make that decision for myself.  My mother had the same legally binding statement in a different jurisdiction and we went there to sit with her while she passed away.  Civil society continues nonetheless.


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