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Tuesday, April 7, 2009 - 4:58pmSanction this postReply
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When dealing with the issue of how to resolve conflict, Objectivists tend to emphasize making sure that people's rights are properly respected, protected, and restored. I'll refer to that as achieving justice. Objectivists don't so much emphasize the importance of preserving peace. Preserving peace differs from achieving justice in that the latter requires a rigid maintenance of rights while the former does not.

We see peaceful but non-just resolutions of conflict often when cases settle. Someone might deserve, say, $10,000 for the loss of some right, and the just scenario would be for the violater to pay up that exact sum. But the victim might accept $8,000, were it offered, just to avoid legal costs in excess of the award, or to keep on good terms with the violater, or to just be done with it because it's emotionally difficult. The victim still believes the lost right is worth $10,000 but does a little pragmatic arithmetic and settles for the unjust but peaceful resolution.

It might be that Objectivists think it's somehow just for a victim to take what is less than the full value of the right. If so, I'd like to hear why. 

Now this, I think, is an awfully innocuous thread for the dissent forum; it could just as well have gone into the general forum, but since I'm being mildly critical of Objectivists, I figured I'd stick it here.

Jordan


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Tuesday, April 7, 2009 - 8:10pmSanction this postReply
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To make this thread more suitable for the dissent area, you need a less innocuous example than a person settling for $8,000 instead of $10,000 (a certain settlement rather than a risky trial, reduced legal expenses, etc.)

Have you got an example where the conflict between justice and peace is more pronounced?

Post 2

Tuesday, April 7, 2009 - 8:45pmSanction this postReply
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I don't understand actually how a court settlement is unjust. If both parties agree to it, I would think the settlement is agreed to as fair compensation for the violation. You say the victim says they are cheated out of 10,000, and thus should be compensated that amount, but the victim cannot unilaterally decide that is what is just compensation, because the victim could be in error about the amount, or even in error that they were actually a victim.

But since you are being mildly critical Jordan of Objectivism here on the concept of justice, I would ask if could you provide something to the contrary that is better than what Objectivism has to offer? (which I should point out the concept of justice Objectivism holds is not unique to Objectivism)


(Edited by John Armaos on 4/07, 8:51pm)


Post 3

Wednesday, April 8, 2009 - 8:14amSanction this postReply
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Jordan,

Saying "cheated out of a right" is rather broad. One of the biggest problems, I think, in most civil cases is objectively determining the value of a loss. Unless there is a specific calculable value such as may be ascribed to a physical object - e.g. blue book value on a car, replacement cost for a specific model computer, etc. - the value is otherwise based to the subjective opinions of the litigants. Hard to determine. I agree that you'd need a better example.

jt

Post 4

Wednesday, April 8, 2009 - 8:32amSanction this postReply
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Henry & Lanier, Essential Criminology Reader,  11.2: “Peacemaking” by Hal Pepinsky

 

Postulate 1: Violence begets violence

Corollary:  Economic exploitation breeds embezzlement and sabotage.

 

Postulate 2:  Measures intended to stop violence only channel it into other outlets.

 

Theorem:  There exist forms of human relations that are satisfying to all.

Corollary:  Violent interactions can be transformed into constructive human relations.

Corollary:  These constructive human relations restore the victim and the offender.  They reconcile the victim and offender to the best possible extent.  They require that the offender recognize the losses of the victim as a condition of transformation.

 

Definition:  The opposite of peacemaking is unresponsiveness.

 

Criticisms (Straw men)

1. Peacemaking is not a theory.

2. Peacemaking is impractical

3. Peacemaking is privileged.

 

Replies.

  1. Admitted that this is not a positivist theory.  It does assert a testable and falsifiable hypothesis:  Reconnecting broken social relations will produce less violence in the future, rather than adding violence and deprivation.
  2. We know what separates people and what brings them together.  Given that, it remains that people can choose the impractical continuation of risk from their fear of peace.  This is a personalized reflection of a general self-defeating modality pervasive within society.
  3. The position of privilege does not invalidate the means of peacemaking.  

Pepinsky’s Peacemaking.

Ø      The essence of peacemaking is to continually learn where the other people in the relationship are and what the "subject one" needs to do to adjust to the newly stated context in order understand where the "subject one’s" own interests as well the interests of the "subject other" all lie.

Ø      The "Navajo" rules of peacemaking are: Show up. Tell the truth.  Pay attention.  Detach yourself from any expectation of outcome.

Ø      Remain comfortable with open disagreement.

Ø      Rather than a substantive rule of objective, rational law based on predefined outcomes, peacemaking proceeds by fluidly changing needs and interests at hand.

 Ø    The process hinges on a set of assumptions.

1.      No distinction between violence and peacemaking as the definition of crime is politically and economically arbitrary. 

2.      Rich and powerful people are likely to commit crimes of violence. 

3.      The greatest violence is the silencing of the powerless.

4.      Children are the ultimate underclass.

 

Reflective critique

  1. Basically, I like this theory.
  2. Pepinsky begins with the assumption that exploitation causes embezzlement.  He does not consider that employee theft is the initial aggression that demands remediation, restoration and peacemaking.  Employee theft reduces the capital of a business, not only preventing growth but threatening the employment of others.  The thief steals not the owner’s purse, but the co-worker’s pay. 
  3. See Appendix A for source material on employee theft.
  4. In short, if being poor is not a crime, neither is being rich.  If the underclass have needful requisites that underlie the harms they commit, then, so, too, must the rich.
  5. This theory reflects certain truths of economics, especially those discovered by the “Austrian” school. 
    1. All values are subjective. 
    2. All open exchange brings profit to both parties: you buy the gel pen not because it is equal to a dollar, but because it is worth more than a dollar.
    3. There is no such thing as an objectively “fair” price, only the price established by the buyer and seller at this place and this time.
    4. All prices are constantly subject to renegotiation with each new transaction.
    5. The past is no indication of the future.  Statistical summaries are of limited usefulness at best.
    6. Human action is contingent and therefore not amenable to central control by political means. 
    7. Government intervention is the injection of force (coercion; aggression) into the marketplace. This robs individuals of agency.
    8. Government intervention always must have negative consequences, often unseen and unexpected, real in their harms to unintended others. 
Rather than a substantive rule of objective, rational law based on predefined outcomes, peacemaking proceeds by fluidly changing needs and interests at hand.
Max Weber pointed out in City that the rational law of bourgeois (craft and market; urban) society replaced the situational law -- often by ordeal or combat -- of traditional, land-based power.  Rational law allowed predictable outcomes.
 
That was then.  This is now.  An "Austrian" theory of law might -- my conjecture here; might -- assert that attempting to write down all laws and all applications of all laws is like attempting to post a huge billboard of all fair and just prices for all goods and services.  Values are subjective.  If you wrong me, our solution would depend on our values, whereas if Jordan harms John, they have different measures of the loss and restoration.
 
I had a couple of classes in conversational Italian and in one the instructor told of being on the street when there was a fender-bender.  A car and truck collided.  Melons were all over the street.  Soon the two men were yelling at each other, waving and walking around angrily, shouting accusatoins and insults.  After about 10 minutes of this, maybe more, a pretty good crowd was still about from people coming and going and finally someone yelled out "Just say you're sorry."  And the one driver did and the other accepted it and they both picked up the watermelons and put them in the truck. 
 
Sometimes, just saying you are sorry is enough.
 
Does anyone want to assert an objective harm in the loss of value to the melons, the loss of time to the innocent driver, and the need to punish the harmful driver in order to "reflect back on him the harm he caused" (Bidinotto's retribution theory).
 

(Edited by Michael E. Marotta on 4/08, 8:35am)


Post 5

Wednesday, April 8, 2009 - 11:29amSanction this postReply
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"Peace versus Justice" debates creep up on the macro-scale (See Sudan or Uganda, for example), but offering macro examples to get to a principle here is difficult because they are seriously messy. So I offered the most basic example I could think of. You guys clearly aren't buying it. Let me try to sell it a bit more, and if that doesn't work, I'll try to rattle another basic micro example out of my brain.

John,
You say the victim says they are cheated out of 10,000
I'm not sure I'd use the phrase "cheated out." And the victim who accepts $8,000 would be forgoing $2,000 if his right were actually worth $10,000. Oh, and you're totally right that the Objectivist concept of justice is not unique to Objectivism. It goes back to Aristotle and even Plato, who did manage a smart idea every once in awhile. Plato viewed justice as granting to each what he or she deserves (or has earned), and conversely, witholding from each what he or she does not deserve (or has not earned). (Less importantly here, Aristotle "equalized" this basic premise by saying justice entails treating like cases alike and unlike cases unalike.) 

JT fairly points out that ascertaining the exact value of a right can be difficult. But it's not too difficult to get a ballpark estimate much of the time. So let's accept for the sake of argument that $10,000 is a fair estimate of what the victim actually deserves for the loss of the right. (I could make it $10,000,000 for Steve to make it more pronounced, but I'm pretty sure that won't work.) Under Plato's premise, and Objectivism's so far as I can tell, justice dictates full compensation of the $10,000. I'm not sure whether this is "fair" or whether the $8,000 settlement is "fair," as John suggested. "Fairness" is not the same as "justice." But $8,000 satisfies the parties so that they agree to end the conflict. It makes peace. The victim is willing to stomach the $2,000 loss (perhaps so as not to lose more). The aggressor is happy to take the discount for the transgression.

Any headway?

Jordan


Post 6

Wednesday, April 8, 2009 - 5:06pmSanction this postReply
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The problem Jordan is that you are claiming special knowledge you would not be privy too. And the litigants have a disagreement on the amount of damages, and in some cases would disagree damages were even incurred. It's difficult to accept your example that the plaintiff deserved 10,000 dollars because it begs the question whether the plaintiff is actually correct in that claim. So absent of a trial, with a judge that makes a final decision, you wouldn't have any better knowledge that the settlement is less just than what the court outcome would've been. But more broadly the problem is the idea justice would only be valid if it could be applied as a Platonic ideal. As an Economist I see a worthwhile activity as worthwhile as long as it greater than zero. That is as long as there is an outcome that is better than not attempting anything at all, that means doing something is more worthwhile than doing nothing. Since there is no Platonic Ideal of justice because we are not omniscient, you can only strive for an outcome that is more just than something completely unjust.

Post 7

Thursday, April 9, 2009 - 4:48pmSanction this postReply
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Okay, so I need to abandon my example. Having not come up with another one just yet, how about I ask a couple of general questions? First, if people violate your rights, then justice dictates that they must fully compensate you for their loss, right? Second, is there ever a time where your rights are violated, but to "keep the peace," you go with some alternative resolution and forgo full compensation for yours loss of those rights?

Jordan


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