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Post 20

Tuesday, January 12, 2010 - 9:56pmSanction this postReply
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Hi Robert,
So again I ask: Is there really any practical distinction being made between a metaphysical "essence" and a concept's "essential characteristics"?
In Objectivism: The Philosophy of Ayn Rand, pages 98-100, Peikoff discerns essential characteristics from fundamental characteristics. He talks about essential characteristics in the context of making definitions. He notes that essential characteristics are used to differentiate what is subsumed and not subsumed under a concept. This function of differentiation is that the characteristic that metaphysically "makes the others possible" does.

Jordan


Post 21

Wednesday, January 13, 2010 - 5:30pmSanction this postReply
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Jordan,

Could you state the last line in your post a slightly different way so even I can understand it?

Post 22

Thursday, January 14, 2010 - 2:31pmSanction this postReply
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Yoiks. Don't know what happened there. I was going for: "This function of differentiation is not something the characteristic that metaphysically "makes the others possible" does." It's still awkward. A shorter perhaps less precise rephrasing is: metaphysics doesn't deal with differentiating.

Jordan


Post 23

Thursday, January 14, 2010 - 8:08pmSanction this postReply
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Jordan,

If some characteristic (e.g., rationality) is essential to the concept, isn't it also essential to the entity being defined? Isn't it also the characteristic that "causes the rest" (Rand's own words)?

I'm not failing to differentiate the two (essential or fundamental characteristic). But I question the Objectivist refusal to admit that they get their essentials from entities, therefore the former constitute essences.
(Edited by Robert Keele on 1/14, 8:08pm)


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Post 24

Friday, January 15, 2010 - 10:11amSanction this postReply
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Hi Robert,
If some characteristic (e.g., rationality) is essential to the concept, isn't it also essential to the entity being defined?
Perhaps this is how Objectivism would answer: Entities can be included as referrents under more than one concept. Their metaphysically causative characteristics won't change based on which concepts they fit under. Their (epistemically) essential (distinguishing) characteristics will.

For instance, consider the concepts "mascot," "pet," and "mammal," which all can refer to the entity, Morris, the cat from 9Lives catfood ads. As a mascot, Morris is (epistemically) essentially a symbol for the company. As a pet, he's (epistemically) essentially a human's companion animal. And as a mammal, Morris is (epistemically) essentially a member of a species with mammary glands. Presumably, not all three of these disparate characteristics are causally necessary for Morris to be Morris. Whatever metaphysically causes Morris causes Morris irrespective of how we conceive him.

Jordan


Post 25

Friday, January 15, 2010 - 11:20amSanction this postReply
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Jordan,

I find nothing to disagree with in your example. But let's take another look at these concepts.

Morris the cat is a mascot, a pet, and a mammal.

The first two are defined by a relationship to humans. However, the ontologically essential ingredient of being a mascot or a pet is still in the existent relationship to humans. If that relationship for some reason ceases to exist, then the concepts no longer apply to Morris.



Post 26

Friday, January 15, 2010 - 12:14pmSanction this postReply
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Hi Robert,

So what's your point? My point, rephrased, is that if an entity doesn't possess the (epistemically) essential (distinguishing) characteristic that puts the entity under some concept, then the entity doesn't go under that concept, yet it might still (metaphysically) exist. What makes it belong to a concept is not necessarily the same as what makes it exist.

Jordan


Post 27

Friday, January 15, 2010 - 12:25pmSanction this postReply
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Jordan,

I wonder what you mean by "metaphysically" in this context? Does it relate to something literally above the physical plane of reality?

Post 28

Friday, January 15, 2010 - 12:29pmSanction this postReply
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No.

Jordan

Post 29

Friday, January 15, 2010 - 1:19pmSanction this postReply
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Jordan,

I'm sure that Miss Rand didn't mean anything like that either, but what did she mean when she said at ITOE2 230-1,

But metaphysically—that is, apart from human observation or knowledge—it doesn't constitute an explanation, it's just a fact. Epistemologically, the process of determining a defining characteristic will proceed by means of the question: which characteristic explains the others? Metaphysically, this means: which characteristic makes the others possible? Which is the cause?


Sounds to me like she knew a lot about metaphysical essences even if they had nothing to do with Aristotle or his "process of becoming" metaphysics. She knows, for example, that an entity's essence (a certain "characteristic") is that which causes the rest or makes them possible.

So she is literally saying that a man can be a man if he possesses the real characteristics of rationality and animality.

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Post 30

Friday, January 15, 2010 - 4:16pmSanction this postReply
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Robert,

Did Rand think some of an entity's characteristics make its other characteristics possible? Yes. Are those causative characteristics necessarily the same as the characteristics that make an entity a referrent of a particular concept? No. Might that blurb from ITOE give rise to some confusion? Sure.

Jordan


Post 31

Friday, January 15, 2010 - 5:02pmSanction this postReply
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Jordan,

The only problem I see here is that Rand cannot claim rationality and animality as absolutes, because there may yet be an undiscovered deeper metaphysical cause of both. The most she can say about the definition of "man" is "as far as I know within a given context."

Thus there is a necessity of abstracting from the metaphysical playing-field altogether, that is, if she wanted to lay claim to knowledge of absolutes.

Post 32

Saturday, January 16, 2010 - 9:03amSanction this postReply
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Robert,

The only problem I see here is that Rand cannot claim rationality and animality as absolutes, because there may yet be an undiscovered deeper metaphysical cause of both.
You are confusing the term "absolute" with the term "foundational." Absolute simply refers to necessary (i.e., objective) truths. This, by the way, is how Rand could say:

Reality is an absolute, existence is an absolute, a speck of dust is an absolute and so is a human life. Whether you live or die is an absolute. Whether you have a piece of bread or not, is an absolute. Whether you eat your bread or see it vanish into a looter’s stomach, is an absolute.
Looking at "a speck of dust" or "a human life" or "a piece of bread" -- we find that they are associated with necessary truths, but not foundational ones. For instance, a speck of dust won't nourish you, but a piece of bread will. However -- and this is where the "piece of bread" is shown to necessarily be nourishing, but not foundationally so -- you can also get nourished by a chicken breast with green veggies. The take-away point is that, while bread is necessarily nourishing, you do not absolutely need bread (absent alternatives) in order to get nourished. Other things can nourish you.

When you use the term "absolute" -- your mind mistakenly tacks-on things like "absolute need for" (which is better characterized as "foundational"), instead of understanding an absolute simply as a necessary fact of reality.

Ed


Post 33

Saturday, January 16, 2010 - 10:35amSanction this postReply
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Ed wrote:

You are confusing the term "absolute" with the term "foundational." Absolute simply refers to necessary (i.e., objective) truths. This, by the way, is how Rand could say:

No, absolute is what I meant. And I stated it in the context of metaphysical uncertainty, that is, of never knowing whether or not one has uncovered the ultimate "cause" (Rand's own word in the ITOE appendix) of all the rest of an entity's characteristics.

What Rand is talking about in the quote you gave is not metaphysics.

Here is an interesting quote from Einstein regarding such statements:

"The physical world is real." That is supposed to be the fundamental hypothesis. What does "hypothesis" mean here? For me, a hypothesis is a statement, whose truth must be assumed for the moment, but whose meaning must be raised above all ambiguity. The above statement appears to me, however, to be, in itself, meaningless, as if one said: "The physical world is cock-a-doodle-doo." It appears to me that the "real" is an intrinsically empty, meaningless category (pigeon hole), whose monstrous importance lies only in the fact that I can do certain things in it and not certain others. This division is, to be sure, not an arbitrary one...


No, it's not an arbitrary division, only an empty one. You can substitute existence is an absolute for the physical world is real in the above quote and Einstein's criticism still applies.

Such statements are empty and meaningless for physics, likewise for philosophy. But they DO have psychological impact, even if they are entirely lacking in intellectual importance. Having psychological impact they can give the appearance of intellectual importance because of the philosophical context of the statements.

I agree with your distinction between necessary and foundational truths. That is identical to the Kantian distinction between necessary and a priori truths. All a priori truths are necessary, but not all necessary truths are a priori.






Post 34

Saturday, January 16, 2010 - 11:13amSanction this postReply
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Robert,

No, absolute is what I meant. And I stated it in the context of metaphysical uncertainty, that is, of never knowing whether or not one has uncovered the ultimate "cause" (Rand's own word in the ITOE appendix) of all the rest of an entity's characteristics.
Then you have a non-sensical view of the term: absolute -- a view which depends upon omniscience (or the arbitrary postulation of self-limiting epistemology, as Kant invented) as the means to its discovery.

To discover an absolute, in your mind, requires either being the Creator of reality (because you are then fully aware of your intentions in making something, from the foundation up, to be a certain way), or it requires arbitrarily restricting yourself in order to make something always come out a certain way for a certain reason.

What Rand is talking about in the quote you gave is not metaphysics.

Wrong! All non-Man-Made facts are metaphysical (don't you get that?). If the nutritional relation of bread to man wasn't made by man, then it's a metaphysical relation. Rand, who was talking about absolutes, was also talking about metaphysics. That this isn't obvious to you is troubling.

At times, I'm unsure that you really even understand what it is that you are saying.

Ed

(Edited by Ed Thompson on 1/16, 11:18am)


Post 35

Saturday, January 16, 2010 - 12:27pmSanction this postReply
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Ed,

You wrote: Wrong! All non-Man-Made facts are metaphysical (don't you get that?).

No, actually I don't.
http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/metaphysics
1. (philosophy, uncountable) The branch of philosophy which studies fundamental principles intended to describe or explain all that is, and which are not themselves explained by anything more fundamental; the study of first principles; the study of being insofar as it is being (ens in quantum ens).


You wrote: ...a view which depends upon omniscience (or the arbitrary postulation of self-limiting epistemology, as Kant invented) as the means to its discovery.

But that was exactly my point, Ed, although in not so many words, when I stated a metaphysical "uncertainty principle" regarding the (im)possibility of discovering the utmost foundation or principle governing (causing) all the rest.

As for Kant, it is therefore obviously not an arbitrary principle of his that the intellect is self-limiting, it is a natural conclusion based on the very premise that you yourself stated. Therefore, to be non-self-limiting would require that one be omniscient.

Lastly, as for what Rand considered her three absolutes - existence, identity, consciousness - these have little if any constitutive importance but have what Kant would have at best granted a merely regulative importance for formal logic as links in a chain of method.

Post 36

Saturday, January 16, 2010 - 1:13pmSanction this postReply
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Ed,

If you really want to know what's going on with Kant's philosophy, I highly recommend looking into the Friesian.com site.

For example:

http://www.friesian.com/kant.htm
The path to resolving the paradoxes of Kant's theory opens up with two basic realizations: (1) Kant always believed that reason connected us directly to things-in-themselves, and (2) Kant's system is not a Cartesian theory of hidden, transcendent objects, but a version of empirical realism, that we are directly acquainted with real objects. Kant's notion that reason connects us directly to things-in-themselves does not allow for speculative metaphysics as practiced by the Rationalists because reason alone does not determine any positive content of knowledge ("Thoughts without content are empty; intuitions without concepts are blind," A 51). For that some datum is required. Kant allows that we possess two sources of input that can serve as such a datum, physical sensation and the sense of moral duty. Physical sensation precipitates an application of reason to experience, producing the perception of phenomenal objects. The supreme rational expression of this is science. The sense of moral duty precipitates an application of reason that generates ethics and religion. The supreme rational expression of this is the "Postulates of Practical Reason," the "Ideas" of God, freedom, and immortality which, to Kant, are required as conditions of the Moral Law.

(Edited by Robert Keele on 1/16, 1:14pm)


Post 37

Saturday, January 16, 2010 - 5:05pmSanction this postReply
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Robert,

*********
If you really want to know what's going on with Kant's philosophy, I highly recommend looking into the Friesian.com site.
*********

I did that 6 years ago. Copy this link into your browser for details (and see, specifically, post 25):

http://rebirthofreason.com/Forum/GeneralForum/0170_1.shtml

Ed

Post 38

Saturday, January 16, 2010 - 8:21pmSanction this postReply
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Ed,
Recycling old posts that have nothing to do with the topic don't do much for me.

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