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Post 40

Friday, January 15, 2010 - 4:28pmSanction this postReply
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Jordan,

You wrote: I suppose it doesn't matter. I think what matters to this thread is whether Peikoff's argument can be applied to Kant's treatment of the distinctions. In my post #1, I suggested it can be.

I recall your suggestion that Peikoff's misidentification of those proposition forms doesn't affect his argument against Kant.

You're assuming his argument was against Kant. But after all,
Peikoff wrote:

In its dominant contemporary form, the theory states that there is a fundamental cleavage in human knowledge, which divides propositions or truths into two mutually exclusive (and jointly exhaustive) types. These types differ, it is claimed, in their origins, their referents, their cognitive status, and the means by which they are validated.


It is the "claim" of this "dominant contemporary form" that Peikoff is addressing. Kant said nothing about validating propositions, he was only interested in clarifying the logical form of propositions not in validating them. After all, Kant held that the proposition 7 & 5 = 12 is validated simply by counting on your fingers (B15-16) (that's why it seems analytic to some people), so the logical form of the proposition has nothing to do with validation.

B15-16 reveals that Kant's argument is precisely as I have expressed it here and in posts before, despite your complaint that I have mischaracterized it.

Edit: As an after-thought, it is obvious that Peikoff's failure to address the synthetic a priori in his essay shows either that he didn't understand the issue or he completely ignored Kant's take on it; either way, it was not Kant's idea he was criticizing but that of Logical Positivism.
(Edited by Robert Keele on 1/15, 4:36pm)


Post 41

Friday, January 15, 2010 - 4:32pmSanction this postReply
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Hi Robert,

Does Peikoff's critique not apply to Kant's treatment of the topic?

Aside, it seems to me that logical positivists and Kant had the same general understanding of what was "analytic" and what was "synthetic." They just disagreed with Kant about the status of synthetic a priori judgments.

Jordan


Post 42

Friday, January 15, 2010 - 4:46pmSanction this postReply
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Jordan,

Logical Positivism only had to borrow those terms from Kant, either directly or vis á vis someone else. Peikoff claims that Kant advocated some variation on a dichotomy, but he does not back up his claim and only goes on to state the modern variation.

Einstein, for example, was a Positivist at an earlier point in his life and, according to my reading of his autobiography, not a fan of Kant's for philosophical reasons. Nevertheless, Einstein avowedly held to a dichotomy in propositions such that if its analytical then its truth can't be verified in reality.

Any reading of Positivism's take on Kant will reveal the same kind of anti-Kant opinion as Einstein's.

Post 43

Friday, January 15, 2010 - 4:49pmSanction this postReply
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Jordan,

You wrote: Aside, it seems to me that logical positivists and Kant had the same general understanding of what was "analytic" and what was "synthetic." They just disagreed with Kant about the status of synthetic a priori judgments.

I think that the bare ideas of analytic vs. synthetic are fairly non-controversial between schools of thought. But to a great extent many thinkers have confounded the distinction between analytic and a priori.

Post 44

Saturday, January 16, 2010 - 8:47amSanction this postReply
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Agreed. Does this counfounder post problems for Objectivism?

Jordan


Post 45

Saturday, January 16, 2010 - 10:20amSanction this postReply
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Robert,

Kant said nothing about validating propositions, he was only interested in clarifying the logical form of propositions not in validating them.
Right. Kant was not interested in discovering the validity (read: truth) of propositions (read: things). Another way to say this is that he had an ulterior motive from the get-go. What kinds of things can be said about someone who is not interested in the truth, but who has an ulterior motive?

His motive was to take Hume's error (that the relations of "ideas" are all that we really know) and to twist it -- rather than to outright reject it -- in order to keep the idea of God (and therefore, of deontological morality) and the idea of Free Will alive in order to get men, with the subsequent guilt and doubt, to freely subject their wills to God.

He didn't like what could be concluded from Hume's writings: vulgar empiricism, metaphysical skepticism, logical positivism, scientism, and determinism. Instead, he wanted a free will for man, and a robust faith in the intrinsically unknowable (for the slave-making reason just mentioned above). He put chains on man's mind in order to "ready" it for subserviency to something (or to anything).

Okay, okay. Let me back-track a little. That might have been a little too much speculation on my part  -- to presume that Kant was thoroughly evil, right down to the bone (a philosophical "Anti-Christ", if you will). A more nuanced version or take on this is found in Mortimer Adler's book: Ten Philosophical Mistakes (p 90-100). In it, he comes to much of the same conclusion about the work of Kant:

The authors of the two philosophical mistakes with which we are concerned here are David Hume and Immanuel Kant. ...

Looked at one way, the two mistakes represent opposite extremes. Looked at another way, they represent opposite faces of the same error. ...

Hume's mistake had its roots or origin in earlier mistakes, ... especially ... with regard to ideas as objects we directly apprehend. On the other hand, Kant's mistake had its origin in the mistake made by Hume. He might have avoided his own mistake by pointing out that the conclusions Hume reached, which he found so repugnant, were based on false premises.

... Instead, he invented and erected a subtle and intricate philosophical structure in an effort to reach and support conclusions the very opposite of Hume's, and just as incorrect. ...

The a priori, according to Kant, includes whatever is in the mind prior to any sense-experience and also whatever judgments it can make that are not based upon sense-experience. The a posteriori is, of course, the opposite in both respects.

The analytic consists of judgments the truth of which depends entirely upon definitions. ...


Philosophers since Kant have misconceived what an earlier tradition in philosophy had understood to be self-evident truths or axioms. They have mistakenly accepted Kant's restriction of such truths to verbal tautologies, to trifling and uninstructive statements. ...

To maintain that there are synthetic judgments a priori, as Kant does, is, perhaps, the single most revolutionary step that he took to overcome the conclusions reached by Hume that he found so repugnant. ... 

To do this, Kant endowed the human mind with transcendental forms of sense-apprehension or intuition (the forms of space and time), and also with the transcendental categories of the understanding. ... The mind brings these transcendental forms and categories to experience, thereby constituting the shape and character of the experience we have.

According to Kant, the mind is not ... a tabula rasa--a total blank--until it acquires ideas initially from sense-experience. Locke rightly subscribed to the mediaeval maxim that there is nothing in the mind that does not somehow derive from sense experience. It was this maxim that Kant rejected. ...

How anyone in the twentieth century can take Kant's transcendental philosophy seriously is baffling, even though it may always remain admirable in certain respects as an extraordinarily elaborate and ingenious intellectual invention. ...

Kant argues for the exclusion of traditional metaphysics from the realm of genuine knowledge on the grounds that it must employ concepts derived from experience to make assertions that go beyond experience--the experience that is constituted by the a priori structure of the human mind. Where Hume dismissed traditional metaphysics as sophistry and illusion, Kant dismissed it as trans-empirical.

However, all the ideas used in metaphysics are not empirical concepts. The idea of God, for example, and the idea of the cosmos as a whole are not concepts derived from sense-experience. They are instead theoretical constructs. ... unlike an empirical concept, a theoretical construct does not and cannot have any perceived particular instances. ...

Kant had no awareness of the distinction between empirical concepts and theoretical constructs. His reasons for dismissing traditional metaphysics as devoid of the validity appropriate to genuine knowledge would apply equally to much of twentieth-century physics. ...

Finally, we come to what is, perhaps, the most serious mistake that modern philosophy inherited from Kant--the mistake of substituting idealism for realism. Even though Locke and his successor Hume made the mistake of thinking that the ideas in our minds are the only objects we directly apprehend, they somehow (albeit not without contradicting themselves) regarded us as having knowledge of a reality that is independent of our minds. Not so with Kant.

The valid knowledge that we have is always and only knowledge of a world we experience. But precisely because it is a world as experienced by us, it is not, according to Kant, a world independent of our minds. It is not independent, as we have already seen, because experience is constituted by the transcendental or a priori structure of our minds--its forms of intuition or apprehension and its categories of understanding.

For Kant the only things that are independent of the human mind are, in his words, "Dinge an sich"--things in themselves that are intrinsically unknowable. This is tantamount to saying that the real is the unknowable and the knowable is ideal in the sense that it is invested with the ideas that our minds bring to it to make it what it is.

The positivism or scientism that has its roots in Hume's philosophical mistakes, and the idealism and critical constraints that have their roots in Kant's philosophical mistakes, generate many embarrassing consequences that have plagued modern thought since their day. In almost every case, the trouble has consisted in the fact that later thinkers tried to avoid the consequences without correcting the errors or mistakes that generated them.

Ed
(Edited by Ed Thompson on 1/16, 10:47am)


Post 46

Saturday, January 16, 2010 - 10:40amSanction this postReply
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Jordan,

You wrote: Agreed. Does this counfounder post problems for Objectivism?

No, because Objectivism refuses to take the issue seriously enough to incorporate it. As with the problem of universals, it only becomes a problem if you acknowledge it. Likewise with Hume and the problem of causality.

Post 47

Saturday, January 16, 2010 - 11:26amSanction this postReply
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Ed,

You wrote: Kant was not interested in discovering the validity (read: truth) of propositions (read: things). Another way to say this is that he had an ulterior motive from the get-go. What kinds of things can be said about someone who is not interested in the truth...

As I also said in the same post, After all, Kant held that the proposition 7 & 5 = 12 is validated simply by counting on your fingers (B15-16).





Post 48

Saturday, January 16, 2010 - 12:12pmSanction this postReply
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Adler wrote:

The authors of the two philosophical mistakes with which we are concerned here are David Hume and Immanuel Kant. ...

Looked at one way, the two mistakes represent opposite extremes.


Adler cites some extremes or other, yet Kant is said to have reconciled the two extremes of empiricism and rationalism, this in accordance with his famous quote, Concepts without percepts [Intuition] are empty; percepts [Intuition] without concepts are blind.

Post 49

Saturday, January 16, 2010 - 12:32pmSanction this postReply
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Robert,

Kant is said to have reconciled the two extremes of empiricism and rationalism,
No. Kant merely offered (read: invented) a version of rationalism which no longer stood in direct opposition to empiricism. This is not a reconciliation of the two extremes. It is a Red Herring. Within Kant's view, empiricism's past criticisms of rationalism cannot hold water. His own version of rationalism -- via an arbitrary limitation of the human mind -- is immune from such one-sided criticisms (as was his plan).

It's like he was playing poker against Hume and he merely stacked the deck so that Hume would lose. His poker hand is better than Hume's, but that is not because he's a better poker player -- it's because he broke rules in order to get it.

Ed


Post 50

Saturday, January 16, 2010 - 12:49pmSanction this postReply
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Ed,

Certain metaphysical problems - to view the whole, to find the ultimately small particle, to find a beginning for the universe - and man's inability to solve them point naturally in the direction of man's intellectual limits.

I only named another limit, our inability to know whether or not one has found the ultimate metaphysical "cause" of all the rest. This is not a pseudo-problem, not when Rand herself stated that there was such a fundamental cause. Metaphysically, this means: which characteristic makes the others possible? Which is the cause?


Yes, Miss Rand, which metaphysical characteristic makes the rest possible as a cause? And can you know this for certain?

This IS a problem of metaphysics, and it is one of many "rocks" that metaphysical thinking has foundered upon. That is why Kant wrote the Critique of Pure Reason. By exposing the limitation of the intellect to the empirical (the non-metaphysical) there is no longer any need for the intellect to engage in useless metaphysics, even though, as Kant stated, the rational impulse to engage in such metaphysical pondering still remains.

Instead of quoting wiktionary on metaphysics I suppose I should have quoted Rand herself:

These answers are the province of metaphysics—the study of existence as such or, in Aristotle’s words, of “being qua being”—the basic branch of philosophy.



Post 51

Saturday, January 16, 2010 - 2:22pmSanction this postReply
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Ed,

As you should be able to see from this quote, Kant's theory of truth was more positive, and more advanced, than you may realize.

http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/kant-judgment/
So much for truth-valuedness: but what is truth? According to Kant, truth is a predicate of whole judgments, and not a predicate of the representational proper parts of judgments (A293/B350). Furthermore we already know that objective validity is a necessary but not sufficient condition of the truth of a judgment. Kant also holds that logical consistency is a necessary but not sufficient condition of the truth of a judgment (A60/B85). Most importantly however, according to Kant the “nominal definition” of truth is that it is the “agreement” or “correspondence” (Übereinstimmung) of a cognition (i.e., a judgment) with its object (A58/B82). Now a Kantian nominal definition is a special type of analytic definition that picks out the “logical essence” of that concept — i.e., the generic and specific intensional criteria for bringing things under that concept — but without also picking out the “inner determinations” or real essences of the things falling within the comprehension of that concept, which would be the job of a real definition (9: 142-143). So this means that for Kant truth just is agreement or correspondence, which can then be further unpacked as a relation between a judgment and an object such that (i) the form or structure of the object is isomorphic with the logico-syntactic and logico-semantic form of the proposition expressed by the judgment, (ii) the judger cognitively orients herself in the world by projecting the object under specific “points of view” (Gesichtspunkte) or modes of presentation that would also be typically cognitively associated with the constituent concepts of the judgment by any other rational human animal in that context (8: 134-137) (9: 57, 147) (24: 779), and (iii) the object represented by the judgment really exists (Hanna 2000b). Another way of putting this is to say that truth is nothing but the objective reality of the total propositional form-and-content of the judgment: that is, nothing but the real existence of that which is precisely specified by the logico-syntactic and logico-semantic features of the judgment taken together with the judger's intersubjectively rationally communicable cognitive orientation. Or in still other words, true judgments are nothing but ways of rationally projecting ourselves onto truth-makers. This is not what is nowadays called a “deflationist” conception of truth however, because Kant is not saying that truth is nothing but asserting the corresponding actual facts. On the contrary, for Kant truth is irreducible to merely asserting the facts, because for him the concept of truth also inherently expresses both the judger's fundamental rational interest in “getting it right” (whether theoretically via true judgment or practically via good intentional action) and her intersubjectively rationally communicable cognitive orientation.


Post 52

Sunday, January 17, 2010 - 8:45pmSanction this postReply
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From the quote above concerning Kant's theory of truth:

"...the object represented by the judgment really exists..."

Is this Immanuel Kant's gimmick, Mr. Mossoff?

Post 53

Monday, January 18, 2010 - 5:21amSanction this postReply
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From the quote above concerning Kant's theory of truth:

"...the object represented by the judgment really exists..."

Is this Immanuel Kant's gimmick, Mr. Mossoff?
I haven't heard Mr. Mossoff's lecture and you have, so what is Kant's gimmick according to Mr. Mossoff? The snippet you quote does not rule out a gimmick.  The object really existing does not rule out a distorted view or apprehension of the object.


Post 54

Monday, January 18, 2010 - 7:51amSanction this postReply
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Merlin,

Kant did not equate deception or delusion with truth.

As I recall, Immanuel Kant's "gimmick" was allegedly obfuscation or subjectivism, or both. But it's been a long time since I've heard the tape and I would have to dig it out of a box somewhere.

Post 55

Monday, January 18, 2010 - 8:32amSanction this postReply
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Merlin,

The tape was easy to find, the tape recorder was not. However, I have the answer for you.

According to the Mossoff lecture -

The issue at stake: What can man know? Reality. And how does man know it? (Standard of knowledge.)

What can man know: Kant says, experience or appearances.

How does he know it: Kant says, Man's mind dictates how the world appears to you.

According to Kant, Man's mind dictates content of what you perceive and think.

Kant's gimmick: he substituted the how for the what. "The how, for Kant, becomes the what." The means of perceiving becomes the content of man's thought.


(Edited by Robert Keele on 1/18, 9:00am)


Post 56

Monday, January 18, 2010 - 8:46amSanction this postReply
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I'm listening to this Mossoff lecture. It's funny. He thinks "synthetic" and "a posteriori" are synonymous terms, and that the latter is Latin for the former.
(Edited by Robert Keele on 1/18, 8:59am)


Post 57

Tuesday, January 19, 2010 - 6:23amSanction this postReply
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Robert Keele, thanks for your report about Mossoff's lecture.

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