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Friday, January 22, 2010 - 7:06pmSanction this postReply
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My first post to this ROR forum involved a criticism of a Seddon post. I think it is now time to criticize an off-forum article of his located at the TOC page http://www.objectivistcenter.org/events/advsem03/SeddonKantonFaith.pdf.

Not that I mean to "take it out on Seddon," but he does have a strange way of writing with great power and truth, while at the same time missing the boat.

In the present article Seddon wishes to deal with the Randian critique of Kant. In one section in particular he concerns himself with infamous "make room for faith" quote found in the Critique of Pure Reason at page Bxxx. This quote is by far most often quoted by Objectivists, Randroids, as well as their libertarian cousins and cousines. It must seem to them both glib and damning at the same time - it seems the normally obscure Kant had an off-moment of sparkling clarity to take advantage of.

It is also a great excuse for out-of-context quoting, followed by the usual building up from this one E-vil little seed (or grain of sand) to the entire Kant universe. This is characteristic of the Randian way of thinking, which is (to quote from a Barbara Branden post on this forum) her ability "to see the universe in a grain of sand."

That's a wonderful and envious ability. However, what happens when you have misidentified the grain of sand? Then the entire universe that results rests on a false premise. So in dealing with this Objectivist issue it is only necessary to deal with that grain. And that is what Fred Seddon has done, or tried to do.

And so in analyzing the Kant quote "I have found it necessary to deny knowledge in order to make room for faith," Seddon rightly follows the Aristotelian path of considering the context of the quote. And this he sets out to accomplish in dazzling detail. Seddon analyzes the phrases leading up to the quote, he analyzes various translations from the original German, he dissects key terms. He even delves into a little Kant theory which comes remarkably close to making the point that he should have set out to make in the beginning of this section. But he never quite gets around to making the key point that will dissolve the entire Randian critique in "the cheap acid of mere logical acumen."

And that point is this: Kant denied knowledge - of topics common to speculative metaphysics up until Kant's day. Those topics concerned the nature of God, of the simple soul, and other topics of "rational psychology" and theology.

Kant has limited reason's scope - but he has limited its scope to the material or empirical realm, while denying it access to the spiritual realm. In this, Kant has literally saved reason from itself, that is, from its inherent or innate tendency to "fly to the sun on wings of wax," that is, to attempt to comprehend the realm of spirit and always fail miserably.

And so it is as Kant wrote on the very next page of the Preface to the B edition, "It is therefore the first and most important task of philosophy to deprive metaphysics, once and for all, of its injurious influence, by attacking its errors at their very source."

But Kant also wants to make room for faith,

"...there is
the inestimable benefit, that all objections to morality and
religion will be for ever silenced, and this in Socratic fashion, namely,
by the clearest proof of the ignorance of the objectors."

Thus in one stroke Kant has quelled both the dogmatists - the speculative metaphysicians of his era - and the empiricists who seek through the failures of the metaphysicians the destruction of morality and religion.
In this, Kant has not destroyed reason, he has saved it from being torn apart in an endless quarrel between opponents who are both laying claim to "reason" while having no Critical ground to stand upon.


(Edited by Robert Keele on 1/22, 8:22pm)


Post 1

Friday, January 22, 2010 - 7:58pmSanction this postReply
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[yawn]

[casual look around]

[exit]


Post 2

Friday, January 22, 2010 - 8:03pmSanction this postReply
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Ed,

Troll, troll, troll your boat!

Post 3

Friday, January 22, 2010 - 8:41pmSanction this postReply
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[re-entrance]

Kant has limited reason's scope - but he has limited its scope to the material or empirical realm, while denying it access to the spiritual realm. In this, Kant has literally saved reason from itself, that is, from its inherent or innate tendency to "fly to the sun on wings of wax," that is, to attempt to comprehend the realm of spirit and always fail miserably.
But this thinking of yours is a self-fulfilling prophecy! IF you start with the notion that Reason is merely mechanical calculation (i.e., formulas and algorithms), THEN you will go on to claim that Reason can tell you nothing about the Spirit or the Spiritual realm.

And the reason that that's done is to avoid contradiction. But the basic premise that "reason = mechanical calculation" is a begging of the question. You are equating "reason" with some kind of rough facsimile of "Marxist dialectical (reductive) materialism." This is the same thinking mistake of Game Theory researchers who claim that reason (or "rationality") should lead us to rat out our friends in the Prisoner's Dilemma game. It is a grossly distorted view.

Here is the rub:
Reason doesn't lead to Reductive Materialism. Reason doesn't lead to predatory egoism. You are accepting some of the old canards of liberal elites. Don't do that. Don't accept them. If you do, then your view of Reason will remain impoverished and you will -- out of desperation -- reach for a mind-body, spiritual-material dichotomy in order to try and resolve the avoidable tension.

If you keep accepting these old, pernicious bromides, then you won't be open to a fuller understanding of what Reason is (and what it, when practiced well, can do).

Ed

(Edited by Ed Thompson on 1/22, 8:42pm)


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Friday, January 22, 2010 - 8:43pmSanction this postReply
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I'd like to go into detail as to how closely Seddon came in my estimation to creating a devastating critique.

I did enjoy this part of the Seddon article,

"God here serves for Kant the same function that the equator has for geography. The equator does not have objective reality, but it does have objective validity. That is, with its use as a regulative rather than constitutive concept, we are able to organize and integrate our knowledge of the earth. But we know that the equator is not a possible object of perception."

I myself couldn't think of a better way of putting the issue which is why I respect Seddon as a top-rate thinker.

However, in the same article he later claims that the Kant word "faith," originally "glauben," should best be translated "thought." Seddon writes:

“I have therefore found it necessary to deny knowledge in order to make room for faith.” Or “I have therefore found it necessary to deny knowledge in order to make room for thought.”

I think this is where Seddon missed his opportunity to give the Randian anti-Kant critique a really good spanking, so caught up as he was on translating and interpreting the fairly non-controversial word glauben.

But I cut him some slack, because Seddon does write,

In order to save morality, Kant critiques pure reason but his conclusions cut both at the rationalist and the skeptic. Since we cannot know the thing in itself, neither the rationalist nor the skeptic can make positive, constitutive claims. The rationalist is denied knowledge of freedom, God and the immortality of the soul. But so is the skeptic denied knowledge that there is no freedom, no God, no soul. Both are denied knowledge of the thing in itself.


As I said in my thread-starter, that's close to being an appropriate counter-thesis to bring against the Randites. But it doesn't quite cut to the quick. If only he had said something like:

Thus in one stroke Kant has quelled both the dogmatists - the speculative metaphysicians of his era - and the empiricists who seek through the failures of the metaphysicians the destruction of morality and religion. In this, Kant has not destroyed reason, he has saved it from being torn apart in an endless quarrel between opponents who are both laying claim to "reason" while having no Critical ground to stand upon.


This conclusion brings to the fore some history the Randites would like to evade - the fact that there were two sides of a great debate ranging over the centuries in which both sides lay claim to a superior form of reasoning. And that the Enlightenment era debate did not primarily concern reason vs. faith, but two very different expressions of reason commonly known as "rationalism" and "empiricism." (Epistemologically speaking, they are "dogmatism" and "skepticism," respectively.) They do share this in common, however: they both lack a critique of pure reason.







(Edited by Robert Keele on 1/23, 7:02am)


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Friday, January 22, 2010 - 8:52pmSanction this postReply
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Ed,

I thought you ran away!


I don't see where you interpret my comments as analogous to Marxist materialism, my effort has been to keep this in historical context, that context being the Enlightenment period.

I did not conflate materialism and empiricism with something sinister regarding the 20th century, in the Enlightenment period they were part of any respectable science. A respectable science maintains a rigorous discipline to remain within the empirical, and considers everything in existence bound to scientific, empirical methods. They would say, if it can't be studied by science, then it doesn't exist. And the only thing that can be studied by science using empirical methods is the material world. Thus they are scientific materialists.

Is that circular? Of course, it is circular and dogmatic, they are the very dogmatists (including Newton) Kant referred to.

I see by the end of your response that you had not read my essay in full. Because if you had, you would not have tried to build a universe from a grain of sand somewhere in the middle of my essay before it had reached its startling conclusion.


(Edited by Robert Keele on 1/22, 8:55pm)


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Friday, January 22, 2010 - 10:19pmSanction this postReply
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Stephen Boydstun tells me on another thread that Seddon was already corrected on the meaning of glauben. While true on that thread, that correction is not sufficient to make the present case on the present thread. All such correction required was to easily, although painstakingly, present a zillion facts against Seddon's case that glauben means "thought" and not "faith" or "belief."

However, I just want to point out that in this present thread I have built upon Seddon's error to show that it affected his ability to properly diagnose and cure the Randian anti-Kant critique. In other words, I have a new, and perhaps interesting, synthesis to introduce to the conversation.

Boydstun proclaimed that he may not have time for me; by the same token, I do not have time to read a zillion-fact empirical analysis that leads up to no new synthesis but only a blizzard of verbiage.

Post 7

Friday, January 22, 2010 - 10:24pmSanction this postReply
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Please link to threads rather than just mentioning their existence.


Post 8

Saturday, January 23, 2010 - 4:42amSanction this postReply
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I second Ted. Robert, if you click on "Link" at the top of a post, that puts its URL in the navigation toolbar. You can easily copy it.

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Saturday, January 23, 2010 - 6:23amSanction this postReply
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Merlin and Ted,

I ended the practice of linking back to this site because those links don't work out for me.

P.s., thanks Merlin, I have worked out the technique of linking through the "link" button whereas before I was typing in the post number.
(Edited by Robert Keele on 1/23, 7:00am)


Post 10

Saturday, January 23, 2010 - 9:45amSanction this postReply
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Robert,

Your conjecture is that reason is limited to the material universe, leaving spirituality out of its bounds. Until a cogent argument is made for that point of view, it is merely an opinion -- it is not knowledge. You are simply offering an opinion over something which is a "matter of fact", not merely a "matter of opinion."

The question: Which color is most beautiful? -- is a matter of opinion. The question: What is the scope of reason/rationality? -- is a matter of fact. So, now, do you have an argument for limiting reason to the material universe?

Ed


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Saturday, January 23, 2010 - 10:12amSanction this postReply
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Ed,

Are you still trolling? I'm not representing myself as a materialist. I only mentioned materialism as a view that went contrary to another view prevalent during the Enlightenment period. These two views are represented by Kant in terms of a conflict. Kant described this conflict in the form of antinomies of pure reason.

The purpose of my post was to show how Seddon "missed the boat" with the Randian anti-Kant critique.



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Post 12

Saturday, January 23, 2010 - 11:24amSanction this postReply
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You would do well to imitate Ed, Robert. He is neither a troll nor an Objectionist. He is one of the few people who will sometimes actually admit a mistake, however grudgingly, and obliquely, when he is forced to.

Post 13

Saturday, January 23, 2010 - 11:48amSanction this postReply
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Ted,

Ok then, I obliquely admit to making some mistake or other.

Post 14

Saturday, January 23, 2010 - 12:27pmSanction this postReply
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Oblique - isn't that as in 'house of mirrors'? ;-)

Post 15

Saturday, January 23, 2010 - 1:15pmSanction this postReply
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Ed's not an Objectivist?



Post 16

Saturday, January 23, 2010 - 2:07pmSanction this postReply
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Jordan,

Ted just likes to test us.

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Post 17

Saturday, January 23, 2010 - 2:33pmSanction this postReply
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Ed's not an Objectivist?
He doesn't believe in Jerus either.

(Edited by Ted Keer on 1/23, 2:37pm)


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Saturday, January 23, 2010 - 3:33pmSanction this postReply
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Ted,

You're "Jerus" link didn't work out.

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Saturday, January 23, 2010 - 3:55pmSanction this postReply
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