Metaphysics

Dear Mr.guest,
I wonder whatever made u think that "existentialists" were philosophers.and it's not about what someone or a group of people "believe"in something or not,it's about what one 'thinks'is true or not,and no real,sincere objectivist 'd ever talk about beliefs and then give u that as an evidence of anything whether it be God or communism or environmentalism because it isn't about beliefs but about truth in which one 'd properly believe only after evaluating all the facts involved.

Post 41

Thursday, November 13, 2003 - 10:45pm

Misperceptions of God.

Human fallibility and misconceptions have labeled God for the past several millennia as one who interferes with the natural forces and free will of people by threatening punishment to those who disobey his bidding. The spiritual existence of this deity, if one decides to accept this premise, could not have changed with the times but the perception of who or what this deity is should change as societies eliminate their superstitious beliefs. Logically this God could not possibly be encumbered by human attributes and needs or desires to be worshiped, prayed to, exalted, venerated, deified, or anything else that mankind has to offer. It is also the human characteristics and attributes that exercise upon others: power, control, dominance, destruction, punishment, revenge, and judgment.

The destruction of civilizations, most sufferings and premature deaths are due to human frailties, stupidity or imperfections and are not God's doings. God, exists in a spiritual realm and never has and never will interfere with anything on earth or in the universe. God is interested in and is involved in humanity, but does not interfere in any way in our physical lives. God guides the development of the universe and everything thereon like a Master Planner. Our relationship and interaction of our spirit with the Spirit of God is for our, not God's benefit. All religions have the same goal and everyone is individually and personally responsible for his own soul's destiny.

God is spiritual and is the progressive and accumulative spiritual intelligence of the universe; an accumulation of all the righteous souls who have passed into the spiritual realm. God does not and never has meddled in the tangible universe. It is of no importance during our physical life whether God exists or not if one so chooses. Whether or not one believes in a spirit or God really makes no difference to God. Righteous living will determine the continuance and destiny of our spirit/soul.

http://www.internet-encyclopedia.org/wiki.phtml?search=kurt+kawohl

Post 42

Sunday, November 16, 2003 - 4:23pm

Kurt:

"God is spiritual and is the progressive and accumulative spiritual intelligence of the universe" - How do you know?

"God does not and never has meddled in the tangible universe". - How do you know?

"It is of no importance during our physical life whether God exists or not if one so chooses". - How do you know?

"Whether or not one believes in a spirit or God really makes no difference to God". - How do you know?

"Righteous living will determine the continuance and destiny of our spirit/soul". - How do you know?

Post 43

Sunday, November 16, 2003 - 6:49pm

why can't man come to reason,
That God is/was made up!
Only to control mankind.

Post 44

Wednesday, November 19, 2003 - 6:59am

IMHO, I have personally experienced my spirit leaving my body and being united with the "ultimate supreme spirit" (God?). In 1956, when I was fifteen years old, I had pneumonia and thought I was dying. My father took me to a doctor who gave me a penicillin injection and recommended immediate hospitalization. We had no medical insurance or money, so my father took me home to recuperate. I remember the drive home vividly. Every breath was painful and my chest felt as though a great weight was upon it. I watched cars and trucks drive by, and wondered how people could make long term plans when life was so unpredictable.

Several nights later, it felt as if my spirit left my body and it experienced being in a place with a gathering of souls or spirits. I sensed great peace, tranquility and ecstasy -- a rapture that was beyond a person's imagination. I felt as if I was a part of ALL, a part of God. I was mentally communicating and in sync with everyone, including not only some of my deceased acquaintances and relatives, but many of the prophets of the bible, and historical people I had read about. There was no dominant force, no forceful leader. I somehow knew who everyone was. Every thought interacted with the whole community. I had no questions; it seemed as if everything was revealed and crystal clear. I saw the universe stretched out with spirits engaged in mental interaction like master craftsmen contemplating the creation of a new frontier.

When I told my father who was a preacher of the Lutheran Faith about my experience he dismissed it abruptly and told me that this "supreme spirit," this God that my spirit had witnessed, was not the God of the bible and he told me to pray for my salvation. We never talked about it afterwards.

Since that time I never really gave it much thought until the New York World Trade Center tragedy on 9-11-01. I went into deep meditation. I wanted to find an answer to why and how some misguided individuals could believe that their actions would be rewarded with their soul's eternal life with God. I then had a couple of experiences similar to the one I had at age fifteen of my spirit communicating with the "ultimate spirit." (God, Allah or whatever one desires to call him/her/it) One spiritual experience seemed to last throughout the entire night. My spirit observed the entire history and the evolution of the universe and our varying perceptions of God, as if in a fast-forward film.

The experiences I encountered after the 9-11 tragedy helped me come to these conclusions:

1. ALL religions have the same goals and all who live by the basic principles of peace will attain their goal. The problems arise when religious fanaticism arises. A fanatic passion to please God has been demonstrated throughout the Ages. We have seen vast destruction and useless killings by religious zealots that have followed us into the present century whereby even technology is unable to quell its tide.

2. In this 21st Century, the Age of Technology, we are still plagued by religious beliefs that are a contributing cause toward terrorism, killings and wars between nations. Belief in a deity, who keeps causing catastrophes, punishes people, and created the universe out of nothingness as if by magic was brought about by hysteria and superstitions. This thought process needs to be reassessed and brought up to date. Open-minded people must use common sense to determine whether this so-called deity was incorrectly perceived, misinterpreted and misunderstood by the masses of a bygone era.

3. God is a spiritual unity, a oneness, a structured government-like "Spiritual Collective"; the "Progressive and Accumulative Spiritual Intelligence" of the universe existing in a spiritual dimension; a collective of the righteous souls who have passed into the spiritual realm; a spiritual continuity.

Some will say that my personal experience of oneness with a supreme spirit is nothing but a dream or a vivid imagination. It doesn't matter whether you accept or totally reject my story. What does matter is that we evolve to a point whereby we can encourage open-minded people to offer feedback on how our religious beliefs can be brought into the 21st century.

Let us hope that man will eventually progress intellectually and evolve to a point whereby he can socialize with totally eliminated tendencies for barbarianism and without fanaticism; This would be true enlightenment.

Namaste,
Kurt Kawohl

http://www.internet-encyclopedia.org/wiki.phtml?search=kurt+kawohl

Post 45

Thursday, November 20, 2003 - 12:45pm

'It seems like I had a spiritual experience, therefore I had a spiritual experience, therefore "the divine" exists,' huh? Doesn't seem like a very good argument to me. In fact, they have a name for this kind of logical fallacy: wishful thinking.

Post 46

Friday, November 21, 2003 - 11:02am

The last time I thought I had a spiritual experience, I took a look at the bottle in front of me and yelled, "Whoa, did I drink that whole 40 already?"

What can I say? I'm a lightweight.

Post 47

Friday, November 21, 2003 - 3:29pm

Kevin, the basis for your conclusions notwithstanding, I find the conclusions themselves puzzling.

"1. ALL religions have the same goals.."

You don't state what those goals are, but I would imagine that different religions have different, stated goals outside of trying to expand their beliefs. One sure goal of religion is to minimize or remove the use of reason itself and to devalue individualism.

"and all who live by the basic principles of peace will attain their goal."
Again, I'm not sure what the goal is, but if by "principles of peace" you mean not initiating violence against another, you are correct.

"The problems arise when religious fanaticism arises. A fanatic passion to please God has been demonstrated throughout the Ages. We have seen vast destruction and useless killings by religious zealots that have followed us into the present century whereby even technology is unable to quell its tide."

The problem, as I see it, is that this fanaticism is almost built into religion. "I am the one true god." "Worship only me." "This is the one, true religion" are constant messages delivered to the followers. That some take this message to kill "in the name of god", whether a suicide bomber or an abortion clinic bomber, should not be surprising. What do you perceive to be the faith-based, religious solution?

"Belief in a deity, who keeps causing catastrophes, punishes people, and created the universe out of nothingness as if by magic was brought about by hysteria and superstitions."

The particular deity that you mention above is the result of the very "holy" texts that are prevalent in religion. "In the beginning..."

"Open-minded people must use common sense to determine whether this so-called deity was incorrectly perceived, misinterpreted and misunderstood by the masses of a bygone era."

Open-minded (i.e., rational individuals) know that the deity requires no interpretation or understanding because it does not exist.

"3. God is a spiritual unity, a oneness, a structured government-like "Spiritual Collective"; the "Progressive and Accumulative Spiritual Intelligence" of the universe existing in a spiritual dimension; a collective of the righteous souls who have passed into the spiritual realm; a spiritual continuity."

There's no more proof in your statement than found in "god is the supreme being".

I find it interesting that your concept of god is slightly different than that of the "major" religions, but I find it as uncompelling.

Post 48

Friday, November 21, 2003 - 3:55pm

Kurt demonstrates the link between original religious thinking and mental illness. Kurt nicely describes unexplained perceptual abnormalities as well as a psychological condition called derealisation. These initially at the time of physical illness, which is common. Just like when on drugs, the brain does not work well when toxic.
These symptoms have lead to the emergence of a fully formed and unshakeable delusional system. Based on nothing more than false perceptions!

Kurt has switched off his rational mind in favour of what he felt and feels. He is therefore not an objectivist.

Post 49

Sunday, November 23, 2003 - 5:51am

Arrgh! Of course I was addressing Kurt and not Kevin. My apologies.

Post 50

Saturday, January 3, 2004 - 8:17pm

A concept that has fascinated me for a really long time is the creation of entities from simpler elements. Things are more than their parts. The old joke that �this broom is 100 years old � it�s had 4 new handles and 8 new heads, though� exemplifies the concept that �the broom� is an entity of its own and has an existence of its own. The King�s Singers formed in the 1960s - but this entity still exists, even though the members of the group have all changed personnel. Therefore, the entity exists in its own right. Although it could be destroyed as an entity when all the members agree to disband, it could be thought of as having a time axis of zero, yet the other attribute dimensions still exist in history (recordings, books, etc.) � dimensions such as quality, humor, style, appearance, etc.

Is this metaphysics? Where can I read more about this � I�ve never studied philosphy!

Alan L.

Post 51

Saturday, January 3, 2004 - 9:08pm

Saelig: There is a thread on the OWL (Objectivism @ We the Living) board:

http://www.wetheliving.com/

in August 2003 that deals with the Ship of Theseus, that you will find is pertinent. You will have to enroll to get to the archives, but it is free.

Paul

Post 52

Thursday, January 8, 2004 - 6:54pm

On the existence of a god; I have a few observations on this topic.

First I would define the position I approach this subject from. As I understand from my exploration and reading: Objectivity means, "in accordance with reality." and, Reality is the specific and unequivocal recogition of the primacy of existence. Conciousness is that which perceives that which exists (or reality).

I know that all objects (existents?)which have a Identity and are "known" are subject to analysis or comparison to the laws or principles of light, physics, chemistry, or mathematics. The fact a given object is not readily quantifiable by our current laws/theories etc, doesn't mean they are supernatural or defy the rules which govern reality, it means either a)there are properties of reality our knowledge is as yet unaware, and when we gain this knowledge then the anomaly will be explained, or b)there is some inherent flaw in the theory or law that is not in accordance with reality (I think this is called a "contradiction).

Now then, what does this have to do with the non-existence of a god? Everything.

It is my thought that god does not exist for these reasons:

Lack of Identity : A = A

A)The lack of a specific nature:
What is the nature of god? The nature of god varies by culture or person, hence it is subjective and therefore non-specific and arbitrary in nature. (Reality is Absolute)

B)An inability to subsume all particular gods, thus allowing the formation of a mental abstraction known as a concept.

C)A lack of an explicit definition of god; again this varies according to culture or person, hence it subjective and arbitrary. When god is defined, the definition is subjective and therefore not valid.

D)The inability to posess a single Identity. To exist, an entity must exist as a particular identity with characteristics peculiar to it as part of its identity. It can not exist as something else. (Existence Exists)

God has no Identity, no explicit definition, no specific nature, and no existence outside that of faith or belief, and finally is purely subjective in nature.

The existence of any entity with any of the properties as listed above is a contradiction which will only arise from incorrectly developed concepts which in turn lead to erroneous conclusions.(such as contradictions)

Any application of rational thought or critcal thinking, will exclude as illogical or irrational the idea of a god, or its existence.

Anyways, this is my first posting here. Leave it to me to pick the grand-daddy of all debates to chirp in on.

Have to run now, studying for a Calculus test in the morning.

Bye now

Christian

Post 53

Thursday, January 8, 2004 - 7:32pm

Many thanks to both this site, IOP.com,, my Professor. Dr. Jutta von Schlesswig-Gotha PhD, and Mme. Ayn Rand, for helping me to find the tools (reason & logic)by which to organise my thoughts and give my thoughts substance on paper as well as existence in my mind.

Christian

Post 54

Thursday, January 8, 2004 - 9:58pm

Thursday, January 15, 2004 - 1:01pm

Well said my brotha'.

Post 56

Saturday, August 13, 2005 - 11:04am

Objectivism 101 states:
"Nothing, or non-existence, is that which doesn't exist. It is not a metaphysical entity. It doesn't exist. It has no identity. It is not an object.
Non-existence is a concept that is meaningless by itself. It isn't something. It is a relational concept, gaining meaning only in comparison to another concept. Non-existence gains meaning only in comparison to existence. It is the denial of existence. The concept "nothing" is a denial of the existence of a particular entity. Both "non-existence" and "nothing" are denials of concepts, which must be accepted and understood in order to give meaning to "non-existence" or "nothing".
The important point is that "nothing" is just that: nothing. It doesn't exist. It has no identity. It's not a vacuum. It's not dark. It's not cold. It has no characteristics. As a tool of cognition, it can be useful, but doesn't exist."

This takes into consideration only one connotation of the term "nothing". Nothing is ALSO considered a null value, the empty set - often represented by the value �. Its importance is immeasurable. To understand its true significance is to understand the principle behind existence, itself -

http://www.theory-of-reciprocity.com

Post 57

Sunday, August 14, 2005 - 12:44am

Thor,

An empty "set" is like an empty bucket -- it is a defined and determined potentiality, one which has once been filled, or is waiting to be filled. Being defined and determined as such, empty sets have nothing to do with nothing -- and, therefore, nothing to do with anything you've said here in support of nothing.

You're conflating the definable and determinable with the indefinable and indeterminable.

Ed

Post 58

Sunday, August 14, 2005 - 6:18am

Ed:
    Strictly speaking, empty sets have Everything to do with nothing; what they have nothing to do with is Anything. Ergo, conversely, Everything has nothing to do with empty sets, while Nothing has everything to do with them.
    Hope that clarifies everything...dare I add, including nothing?

    But, since the subject has been brought up (I hope it hijacks this thread on God/gods), are there more than 1 'empty sets' (like, holes in the ground), potentially an infinite 'number'? Or, can it be considered a mere conceptual tool, in which case there's only *1* 'empty set'?

:)
    The Encyclopedia of Philosophy (Collier-Macmillan) has a semi-serious, but ultimately funny short article on "Nothing," btw.

LLAP
J-D

P.S: This is all I'm going to bother posting on "Metaphysics"-(aka gods). Nothing really is all that's needed to be said on the subject. --- I do hope that the next new subject-thread isn't going to be "Epistemology"-(aka faith).

(Edited by John Dailey on 8/14, 6:37am)

(Edited by John Dailey on 8/14, 8:14am)

Post 59

Sunday, August 14, 2005 - 8:35am