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Post 20

Wednesday, January 15, 2003 - 8:15amSanction this postReply
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I am new to the SOLO sight, although I was introduced to the philosophy a while ago, I am just now attempting to expand my opportunities to discuss and understand it more.

The topic about pornography I find interesting, one because I recently had to write a paper on the difference between art and pornography, and on a more personal note, I myself write erotica and watch pornography.

As Joy pointed out in her post the dictionary defines pornography "as any depiction of erotic behavior (pictures or words) intended to cause sexual excitement." Within this definition it may encompass anything from that of a love scene on a soap opera and a passage in a romance novel or to snuff films and bestiality. The topic originally started with a question about pornography, and not the hard-core aspect of the subject. After defining pornography then the next step would be perhaps to separate each style of porn and look at each individualy.

For instance, Snuff films for some reason do cause sexual excitement for people. On an intellectual basis, the idea of watching someone kill someone else in a sexual situation for the purpose of arousal, to me seems to be placing the need for arousal above the respect for life. Snuff films can be faked and are, however, it is the principle behind the subject which is disturbing.

As for bestiality, animals are here basically for the use of human beings and have no rights. If an individual wishes to have sex with or watch a person having sex with an animal for pleasure I'm not sure where the complication in accepting this type of pornography lies. It may be distasteful to certain people, however, there is nothing forcing a person to participate or watch. This aspect I may have to think a bit more on.

The body and sex are something to celebrate and enjoy, and while I agree that having sex with a partner you love and respect is perhaps the ultimate satisfaction, enjoying pornography and erotica by no means degrade the relationship and can in fact enhance it, as long as both individuals are willing.

Jen

Post 21

Wednesday, January 15, 2003 - 10:03amSanction this postReply
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Hi again Jen,

We have so much in common! I write erotica as well (mainly FOR my husband, though I wouldn't mind finding a paying market for it too! :) and enjoy pornography .. especially for new ideas on how to enjoy things even more. LOL!

Care to share what you wrote about art versus pornography? That actually seems a difficult question in light of the definition of pornography as Art itself can be arousing.

If I get aroused by the sight of 'David' (that famous statue done by Michaelanglo sp?) does that change what it is? It is considered Art by most people I know .. why can't or perhaps why shouldn't Art be arousing? The question seems to make them mutually exclusive things, which isn't a valid question to me.

I suspect most people equate pornography with obsenity and even obsenity is hard to define. LOL!

In any event, I agree that there are other issues with some kind of pornography like bestiality and snuff (most especially!). I haven't given those areas much thought as while I understand people may get aroused by those things, it doesn't fit with my own definitions of sexuality, the enjoyment of humans with each other that is mutually satisfying.

Joy :)

Post 22

Thursday, January 16, 2003 - 8:31amSanction this postReply
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How would porn involving children be viewed by Objectivists?

Post 23

Thursday, January 16, 2003 - 8:45amSanction this postReply
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Joy,

Actually, it was quite difficult to come up with differences between art and pornography, so of course, first I attempted to define each. I used the definition that you mentioned in one of your postings for pornography. I chose to look at art , good art, with respect to the sense of life or art projecting what man strives for and in regards to the body and sex, I identified this as the human form without flaws, and sex depicting through sculpture, painting, or writing, as both partners reaching orgasm.

One of the major differences of course is that pornography within film and magazines is not really done with the idea of using a specific style for a "selective" represention of the reality of sex or the human form, porn takes the reality and simply shows it to you, exactly as it is. True, within in magazines one can find the models who have the digital work done on them to erase imperfections, still it lacks the idea of attempting to re-create reality with a sense of life or moral ideal. Porn is used for sexual arousal and it does this quite efficiently in most circumstances.

Art however, is an artist taking the human form and showing them in a pose of what the artist sees for the human condition, not simply the body but the mind as well, although some artists are more likely to use the word soul. While looking at a statue may be arousing, this is not the main purpose of the statue itself. Artistic drawings and paintings such as those in the Kama Sutra, while they can be arousing to look upon the positions, they were again not created necessarily to cause arousal but to give a visual guide to what the Kama Sutra explains. It is more stylistic than that of a photograph of a man's penis in a woman's vagina, (or a man's cock in a woman's pussy, as may be more appropriate terminology when talking within the realms of pornography.) The Kama Sutra does attempt to show partners different ways to share pleasure through different positions, taking into consideration both a man and woman's pleasure.

When it comes to erotica I had a very difficult time trying to differentiate erotica written for porn from sexual scenes in books which would be considered art. There is some excellent writers of erotica which has both partners fully engaged in each other and can explain the sexual aspects very bluntly and beautifully at the same time. I would have to agree with Matt on the point that with erotica it is more the context which can take it from being merely two strangers hooking up at a bar and then going at it, which is what I would consider more porn for sexual arousal, to a situation between lovers and showing the relationship which exists and how they interact within the course of their sexual experiences that can perhaps move it into the artistic range. However, keeping in mind the basic style and ideal of the writer at the same time.

However, I enjoy both, and write erotica in both ways. Although, I do prefer when there is more context given for the relationship.

So basically, the difference between them is that porn is a replica of reality, while art when it comes to the human form and sex should be a re-creation of reality with a definite style chosen by the artist, and hopefully with an ideal of perfection and pleasure for both sexes.

I wouldn't mind feedback on the subject.

Jen

Post 24

Thursday, January 16, 2003 - 8:57amSanction this postReply
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MRDA,

I was going to include that topic in my first message but decided to leave it.

Children's minds are not as developed in the areas of what is right and wrong in the more complex judgments including sex. Therefore, I don't think anyone could justify child pornography by saying that the child made the choice and was not somehow forced or coerced into participating. Just today I heard on the radio on my way to the university that a 29 year old man had told a 14 year old girl over the internet that he was dieing of brain cancer and his last wish was to see pictures of her naked. She sent them. The man was arrested, but the point is, children/teens are still developing the skills to make judgments about who to trust, whether to experiment with sex and what type of experimenting is okay.

Many children who are sexually abused never tell because it is by someone they know and have been told that what is happening is okay, that is special and that it means the older person loves them. The child may feel that it's wrong, but they don't yet have the experience to judge it as something that shouldn't be happening. And generally, those abused grow up and find out it is wrong and then blame themselves for not doing anything about it and for believing the prepetrator.

I realize this is a bit off the subject of porn, but I personally don't see how taking sexual pictures of children or having children perform sexual activities for photographs or film can be considered right or acceptable.

Having said that, I realize that people can be aroused by the idea of having sex with children, if one does not act on it and keeps it within their mind I don't necessarily think this could be unacceptable. (However, feel free to debate that point.) People fantasize about rape and rough sex, if you get off on it, knowing that it is unacceptable and that it is not beneficial to act on it, then it's a fantasy and if it gets a person off, then it serves it's purpose.

Jen

Post 25

Thursday, January 16, 2003 - 2:05pmSanction this postReply
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Thank you Jen, that is the best discussion of porn versus art I've ever read!

I think you summed it quite nicely in saying that pornography is a replica while art is stylistic in nature and each have their place and unique purpose despite having similarities at times or sharing a common theme.

Arousal could be an attribute of some work of art, but it is not the 'end' of a piece of art. Not its reason for being so to speak.

With porn, arousal is the 'end' of the work, it is its purpose.

I'm going to keep mulling this over for other implications, this is an entirely new way for me to look at it and I'm so glad you shared it here!

Joy :)

Post 26

Thursday, January 16, 2003 - 2:26pmSanction this postReply
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Hello again Jen,

I had to comment again, and yes, it's straying way off subject here but I don't think any one minds. :)

You wrote:

Many children who are sexually abused never tell because it is by someone they know and have been told that what is happening is okay, that is special and that it means the older person loves them. The child may feel that it's wrong, but they don't yet have the experience to judge it as something that shouldn't be happening. And generally, those abused grow up and find out it is wrong and then blame themselves for not doing anything about it and for believing the prepetrator."

Another angle on this is one I've never seen addressed though I've spoken to women who have experienced it so I thought I would mention it.

A few women I've spoken to did have experiences at quite young ages, and yes, were told it was okay by the adult involved and so didn't feel badly about the interaction. What I found interesting in one case is where the woman felt no trauma at all until years later (as a teen) when she recognized via the media and telling close friends that this was an act regarded as pure evil. Then she began to feel incredible guilt and her reasoning was interesting. She claims that she enjoyed the contact, that it was not forced, and filled a need for human contact. Her guilt arose from the fact that she enjoyed the contact with what she was now told is 'evil' and therefore, her enjoyment of those episodes made her evil as well.

She did eventually sort things out (or I hope so as she did speak freely of it and seemed well adjusted), but I found it interesting and wonder how often this kind of scenario plays out. Definitely unearned guilt on the part of the victim, caused not by the actual incident, but of other people's reactions to it.

Joy

Post 27

Thursday, January 16, 2003 - 3:17pmSanction this postReply
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Joy,

Thank you for your response to my posting on pornography and art. I did spend some time on how to describe the differences, especially since I see nothing wrong with pornography and I think the idea when it was assigned was that it would be a simple paper because it should be an open and shut-pornography-bad, art-good situation.

Jen

Post 28

Thursday, January 16, 2003 - 3:51pmSanction this postReply
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Joy,

It's a complex situation. And one I'll probably mull over even after I write this. You are correct, that it is not often looked at when a person doesn't feel guilt and then is told by other people that they should because the actions of the prepetrator are wrong. And of course then the guilt is the "victims" because most people do find it incredible that a child could enjoy it.

I think perhaps it gets lost because when someone is in therapy they tend to try to look at what happened and why it was wrong and then help the "victim" to overcome the feelings of having been abused.

This is actually difficult to respond to without some more thinking. I myself was sexually abused as a child, however, understood it was wrong still as a child and ended up having feelings of guilt because I did enjoy it as well, and knew that was wrong as well. The guilt was perpetuated by the reactions of other people. I'm now finishing up my psychology and theatre arts degree, and have read a bit on sexual abuse. And talked to many people who went through abuse.

It is understandable to me that the woman would not find anything wrong with the abuse as a child, especially if that was the only major physical contact she received. Children tend to need the human contact, the physical presence of another person and generally their primary caretakers. When the caretaker turns it into a sexual relationship but with the statement that this is how love is shown, and it becomes normal to the child, then there is no reason for the child to believe it is wrong, and the child can and sometimes will even become possessive of the caretaker and want the contact. As for the child enjoying it, a child can feel the same pleasure an adult does when caressed in a sexual way. The body still responds, the nerve endings work in the same way. There is no shame in feeling pleasure from it.

The view about incest is more of a religious moral opinion that is considered bad. Biologically, scientifically there is really no reason why two people in the same family cannot have sex. However, the two people involved should be consenting adults and understand the choices they are making and the consequences, good or bad. And children, are still too easily coerced and forced into something they may not understand mentally.

It's difficult, once again, and a good point. Part of me wants to think that she might have had problems without the feedback from others, but then incest used to be an accepted situation, so perhaps had nothing ever been said to her, she may not have felt any guilt at all and been quite happy and healthy both mentally and physically.

I think I may still have a bit of bias in this area, but I'm glad you brought up the point. It is something I will definitely think about. If this wasn't my last semester I perhaps would have considered it as a senior thesis had I decided to do one.

Thank you, Joy. Good point.

Jen

Post 29

Thursday, January 16, 2003 - 3:58pmSanction this postReply
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Hi Jen,

I'm in agreement about pornography and interestingly enough, I think women seem to be the ones more comfortable discussing it! I've brought this up before on the SOLO forum (the yahoo group affiliated with this forum) and for whatever reasons, we never really had any good resolution on it, failed to reach climax as it were. *grin*

I think men are more shy in discussing such things, more likely to put sexual issues on a pedestal while women take a much more practical approach. LOL!

And no guys, I'm not picking on you! :)

I guess those in charge must have been quite surprised by your paper! Did you get any feedback about your views?

Joy :)

Post 30

Thursday, January 16, 2003 - 11:53pmSanction this postReply
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> By MRDA on Thursday, January 16, 2003 - 08:31 am:
>
> How would porn involving children be viewed by Objectivists?

I assume the pun in your question is not intentional.

In case of actual recording of child abuse, the consumer is paying
the producer to rape a child for the consumer's benefit. This is a
criminal conspiracy to initiate force against the child or children
abused - that is, raped - to produce the porn in question, and would
be subject to severe criminal penalties under objective law.

When it comes to so-called "child pornography" produced without actual
child abuse - for example, by using age-regression software on normal
adult pornography to produce images that only look like images of
children - that would be outside the scope of criminal law in a free
society. It might have rational uses, such as satiation therapy
materials, used in psychotherapy to prevent a fixated (involuntary)
pedophile from actually abusing real children.

--
Adam Reed
areed2@calstatela.edu

Context matters. Seldom does *anything* have only one cause.

Post 31

Monday, January 20, 2003 - 7:21amSanction this postReply
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Okay, I'm no paedophile - just someone curious as to how the Objectivist ethics on sex pertain into all areas of the subject (porn, incest. etc). Would cases involving minors be looked upon on a case-by-case basis or should there be a set age of consent to protect children from being preyed upon by nonces (sexual predators)?

Post 32

Monday, January 20, 2003 - 9:27amSanction this postReply
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Joy,

It does seem that more often I run into men that are a bit shocked and embarrassed when I can speak about sex and pornography freely. I have yet to actually analyze why they would be uncomfortable. However, I also have male friends who are extremely comfortable and enjoy the fact that a woman can converse about sex easily.

As for feedback on the article, I didn't receive actual feedback on the subject of the paper from my professor. I did talk to a couple other students who wrote on the same subject and even read one of their papers. The argument they provided was pornography is degrading to women and disgusting, while art is something beautiful. They didn't attempt to define what either was, assuming I suppose that the professor would know what they were talking about and agree. Neither did they define what they meant by degrading, disgusting, or beautiful, so their statements tended to be more subjective. And they didn't supply very good reasons for why they felt the way they did.

Jen

Post 33

Tuesday, January 21, 2003 - 7:42amSanction this postReply
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Hi Jen,

Yes, there are a few men that can face issues of sexuality head on, but they do seem uncommon. Thankfully my husband can face them openly or I'd have a very limited audience for my wild ideas. LOL!

It's a shame that nothing came of your paper on pornography. I guess I'm not surprised, though I keep hoping that more people will wake up and stop evading simple life issues. Sweeping things under the rug only makes the rug dirtier!

None of these issues are new to this generation or even the last generation. I recall being shocked that grownups had sex, had lusty thoughts, and that 40 years ago they were probably doing the same things we do today. LOL! I was raised in the dark and imagine my surprise when I learned that today's 'shocking new behaviors among teens' was old news 3000 years ago!

It somehow seems that our elders (or whoever has some authority in our early lives) believe that if we see no 'evil', hear no 'evil' and speak no 'evil', 'evil' will magically disappear. Why is it so hard to face the fact that all behaviors have a source somewhere? A reason behind it? Whether it is an attraction to red-headed women or masochistic sex, there is probably a reason for it somewhere, it is simply a matter of discovering that reason if you believe it to be damaging in some way. If it isn't damaging to anyone and you are comfortable with it .. then ENJOY it! :)

As a culture we get a lot of people accusing us all of being nothing but pleasure seekers, over indulgent and yet, from where I'm sitting, I see so few people that actually know how to enjoy anything without guilt or fear.

But I am definitely going off on a tangent here. I very much enjoyed reading your replies Jen, and I'm glad that more people are approaching the difficult subjects with excellent logic and reason!

I like Heinlein's take on all this which basically amounts to if you aren't hurting anyone else, what's the big deal. Thankfully I read Heinlein long before I read Rand. :)

Joy :)

Post 34

Sunday, February 2, 2003 - 10:27pmSanction this postReply
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If you're going to bring up the different forms of sexual taboos, let's throw incest in the mix. I saw someone mention it but no discussion. Would this be acceptable to Objectivists?

Post 35

Monday, February 3, 2003 - 12:50pmSanction this postReply
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Hmmm, incest between consenting adults is generally pretty creepy to me, but I can't think of any reason it would be immoral or should be prohibited by the state.

I once saw a movie where a man has a romantic relationship with a woman whom he later discovers is his half-sister. They decide to continue the relationship, and why not?

Post 36

Thursday, February 6, 2003 - 2:52pmSanction this postReply
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Joy,

Actually the shocking thing to me has always been that young people don't think their parents have sex and that people are so uncomfortable with it.
I've actually commented several times to my boyfriend that I can't even conceive of the idea of someone not enjoying sex and not wanting to experiment. I usually try to at least understand where a person is coming from even if I disagree with them and this is just one area where my mind can't get around it.

Jen

Post 37

Thursday, February 6, 2003 - 3:14pmSanction this postReply
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Hi Jen,

I know, we all live in our little illusions. When I was growing up the thought of my parents having sex was so shocking! LOL! But I thought that was only because I have never liked my stepfather.

When I learned others felt the same, I didn't know what to make of it. Of course, my mother also pretended that I might not be having sex .. then again, I was slow to get started so it wasn't an issue. I'm sure she thought I had sex once I got married. LOL!

It is funny that even television encourages these kinds of things. I love/hate these yogurt commercials they run here .. they are sort of cute, but then they ruin it. They set up a seductive looking scene .. one was the french maid and a man, she was acting all maidenly, feeding the man the yogurt and suddenly they are interrupted by a teenager who just rolls her eyes saying, 'You guys are weird!' which lets the viewers know that these two people were not having a clandestine affair but were simply a married couple having a bit of fun.

It's both sad and funny. I love that they are showing parents having romantic fun with a bit of role play, then they ruin it with the teen's reaction. Oh well. :)

We can't seem to escape our Puritan heritage, or dour religious beliefs on the matter. Lots of history in this whole problem, but hopefully we are moving to a more honest way of approaching sexual matters. One can hope!

Joy :)

Post 38

Friday, February 7, 2003 - 7:07pmSanction this postReply
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A note on the children issue.

Whenever I hear people talking about child pornography or people having sex with children and how bad it is an alarm bell always goes off in my head. The reason is that people too often put human beings into two classifications: "adult" (over 18) and "child" (under 18). This classification subtly implies that children stay at the maturity level of a 5 year old until their 18th birthday when they suddenly become mature adults. The reality is quite different from that.Because of this tendency people often erroneously conclude that if an "adult" is in a relationship with a "child" i.e. a 15, 16, or 17 year old that the "adult" is taking advantage of him/her. Further inspection tends to show that many times it is the "child" who is the aggresive one.This is just something that needs to be kept in mind.

Post 39

Saturday, February 8, 2003 - 4:58pmSanction this postReply
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Hi Tom,

You are so right! I get so angry when I see a headline about some pedophile (sp?) that was arrested and then I read on to find out that he was actually with a 15 - 17 year old!

I know I was pretty forward from about 13 (though I looked at least 16!) on and almost, just almost, had a lovely encounter with a college aged man, who alas, refused me as if I were a leper. Well, not exactly, but I am almost certain he would have had me if only it wasn't for the threat of the rest of his life being ruined if we had been caught. LOL!

What a damned shame! :)

Joy

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