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Sunday, April 25, 2004 - 4:43pmSanction this postReply
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 [Originally posted on The Autonomist]
 
Freedom vs. Government
 
The recent SOLOHQ article, "Aristotle: Ayn Rand's Acknowledged Teacher" by Edward W. Younkins is an excellent, succinct overview of Aristotle's philosophy. There is one paragraph in that article that was particularly interesting to me, because it clearly illustrated a basic flaw in both Ayn Rand's and Aristotle's political philosophy.

Younkins wrote: "For both Aristotle and Rand, the issue of how a person should live his life precedes the problem of how a community should be organized."

But, there is no, "problem of how a community should be organized." The problem is all societies are comprised mostly of individuals who have not solved the problem of, "how a person should live his life."

All political solutions are attempts to build a brick building with bad or crumbling bricks. There is no method of producing a free society comprised of individuals who loath freedom, are incapable of self-sufficiency, and are morally corrupt.

Even the success of the fictional Galt's Gulch depended on the hand-picked individual's who comprised it, not it's organization (which was little to none). The mistake of all political theory, including Ayn Rand's, is the baseless belief that human behavior can somehow be managed or organized by the imposition of some kind of force or system, which is based on the even more fallacious notion that one can change people.

There are no "political" solutions, minarchism and anarchism included. The problem is not the system or lack of one, the problem is the "stuff" societies are comprised of. There will always be government. Ayn Rand described the results of anarchy as the emergence of rival gangs of thugs. The Autonomist Notebook says, "When gangsters compete for territory, the winning gang is called the government."

Those who attribute the highest level of individual freedom ever achieved in any society in history to the American form of government, are partially correct. That freedom was not the result, however, of the form of government, which we still have without the freedom, it was the fact that there was so little of that government, and one other, much more significant fact. In the early years, most of the citizens in this country were self-sufficient, productive, individualistic, highly moral, and proud of their own achievement. They were that or they lived in poverty and died.

The phenomenal social and economic prosperity of early America is the result of what individuals did, not the system under which they did it. But, from the beginning, those free Americans were clamoring to throw away their freedom as fast as they could, mostly through local laws and ordinances that would eventually govern every aspect of every individual's life.

The biggest threats to individual liberty, with the exception of the tyranny of taxes and regulation of business, are not the federal government, but the local gangs, the municipal, county, and state governments. Between them all, federal and local, there is not a single freedom enjoyed by our free ancestors they have not regulated out of existence.

If it is truly freedom an individual seeks, they will not find it in any government, system, or organization. Freedom, like every other value, must be achieved by the individual who enjoys it. In the world today, that means in spite of government.

Regi


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Sunday, April 25, 2004 - 6:33pmSanction this postReply
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Regi Said "All political solutions are attempts to build a brick building with bad or crumbling bricks. There is no method of producing a free society comprised of individuals who loath freedom, are incapable of self-sufficiency, and are morally corrupt."

I use the Philosophical Building analogy a lot to explain philosophy to kids and adults without using vocab heavy speech.

Metaphysics = foundation                                               Where do we build buildings?
Epistemology = frameing;                                                How does the building stay standing?
Ethics = walls, ceiling, floor, stairs                                   Where can we stand in the building?
Politics = windows, doors, pumbing, electric                    How does the building function?
Esthetics = the paint, style, siding                                     What does a beautiful building look like?

        I was actualy talking to someone the other day about why the "they should pass a law" political solution mentality is like trying to hang windows and doors, run electric wiring and indoor plumbing in a house that has no foundation, frame or even walls and floors.  You can't establish a functioning systeming in a non-existent building.  Just like you can't fully establish a free society without freedom loving people. 

        Until a sufficient number of minds are won, no political solution will hold out against the freedom destroying 'public good.'  This is why I think that the campaign for mens minds has to be organized in a way that moves from fundimentals out, not corolaries in.  A person may support capitalism and Lassiez-Faire Economics but none of this is worth a damn if they believe in an irrational metaphysical foundation.

Regards,
~Eric J. Tower


Post 2

Sunday, April 25, 2004 - 7:35pmSanction this postReply
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Hi Eric,

Thanks for the comments.

Since I've already had my say, I do not intend to argue with you. You certainly understand the problem, but your view of the solution is very different from mine.

You said:

Just like you can't fully establish a free society without freedom loving people. 

Until a sufficient number of minds are won, no political solution will hold out against the freedom destroying 'public good.'  This is why I think that the campaign for men's minds has to be organized in a way that moves from fundamentals out, not corollaries in.

 
You are certainly in good company here on SOLO and in most Objectivist circles, I think. Most think of Objectivism, not only as a correct philosophy, but as a movement that requires promotion, like a, "campaign for men's minds." They believe, by promoting it, eventually, somehow, people will come to understand and embrace the principles of Objectivism and be the kind of people that a free society can be built on.

My oldest copy of Atlas Shrugged is dated 1957; my oldest copy of Introduction to Objectivist Epistemology is dated 1966. Objectivism has been around over 40 years. How long will it be before the revolution?

Chris Matthew Sciabarra makes a very good case for the success of Objectivism in recent years in his excellent article, "The Cultural Ascendancy of Ayn Rand," [The Atlasphere, 12/31/03], in which he concluded, "When Rand has become so much a part of the vernacular that her ideas are filtered through cartoons and comics, fiction and film, I think it is safe to assume that she has not only survived culturally, but flourished."

Still, I have grave doubts that the influence of Objectivism is at all significant relative to the massive decline in the intellectual and moral character of the general population.

My question to you is, do you believe that promoting Objectivism, even the basic principles, will ever effectively change anything in any significant way? I'm asking the question, not as a challenge, but to provide you the opportunity to explain how that can be done and how it will work.

While I doubt it is possible, I would enthusiastically support and work for anything that would achieve that end, even if the possibilities were remote.

Regi 


Post 3

Monday, April 26, 2004 - 9:16amSanction this postReply
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Reginald,

Most think of Objectivism, not only as a correct philosophy, but as a movement that requires promotion, like a, "campaign for men's minds." They believe, by promoting it, eventually, somehow, people will come to understand and embrace the principles of Objectivism and be the kind of people that a free society can be built on.
The "somehow" is persuasion.  Are you advocating an alternative -- or merely expressing pessimism over our chances?


 
You certainly understand the problem, but your view of the solution is very different from mine.
What is your view of the solution?





Post 4

Monday, April 26, 2004 - 10:35amSanction this postReply
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Hi Michael,

You asked: The "somehow" is persuasion.  Are you advocating an alternative -- or merely expressing pessimism over our chances?
 
I would be very pessimistic about persuasion as a method. Persuasion can mean so many things. Certainly, Objectivists cannot use the usual kinds of persuasion like those used by the religious or politicians, who appeal to peoples emotions and feelings rather than their intellect. We also cannot use the kind of persuasion governments and the Muslims use, employing threats of and actual coercion.

The only kind of persuasion Objectivists can use is reason, and only with those who are willing to listen. Of those, there are going to be very few. I certainly have no objection to using it, and do myself, but do not expect any great results from it, because, you cannot change people.

George Bernard Shaw may have been a socialist, but he was right when he said: "Liberty means responsibility. That is why most men dread it." Objectivism labors under two great handicaps. Objectivism is true, and most men loath the truth, but it also advocates individual liberty, which does mean individual responsibility; as soon as men learn that, they are no longer interested. Most people spend their lives trying to avoid the very thing Objectivism will demand of them, total responsibility for their own lives.

What is your view of the solution?

My view is that Objectivism is a philosophy which provides the principles required for an individual to understand the world he lives in and the requirements of his own nature, and how he must live in this world to fulfill the purpose of his life, which is to enjoy it. That is the solution. All problems are individual problems, and so are the solutions. There is no "social" problem and no "social" solution.

While I agree the kind of political system advocated by Objectivism would be the best and only moral one, I do not believe it is possible to establish such a system unless the number of people is extremely small, which, as a political system, is not very practical.

I also think it is a mistake for an individual to make his own liberty and fulfillment of life dependent on what any other individuals do or think. Everyone concentrates on Atlas Shrugged, but the message of the Fountainhead is, you don't have to wait for anyone else's agreement or approval to live your life objectively and successfully.

If every Objectivist would concentrate on living their own lives successfully instead of trying to persuade others their view is right, the result of their successful lives would be more persuasive than all the arguments in the world.

But, Michael, I am not trying to convince you my view is correct or that anyone else ought to adopt it. I'm just answering your question honestly.

Maybe you would like to explain how you think persuasion ought to be pursued and why you think it will work.

Regi  








Post 5

Monday, April 26, 2004 - 12:00pmSanction this postReply
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Regi:

Since man posses volition, i.e. since we cannot force others to agree, there is no alternative to persuasion. I don't know how many Objectivists exist today, but the great majority got there by being persuaded by the works of Rand and other Objectivists plus their own individual thinking.

If every Objectivist would concentrate on living their own lives successfully instead of trying to persuade others their view is right, the result of their successful lives would be more persuasive than all the arguments in the world.

It is interesting that you make this comment. I have indeed “concentrated on living my own life successfully instead of trying to persuade others“. I have made virtually no effort to persuade others for the last, say, ten years. Instead, I worked 12 - 15 hour days, 7 days a week and now find myself financially independent.

The free time I have now has allowed me to recently discover the existence of the various Objectivism forums and sites. I can state honestly that I am positively stunned by both the number of Objectivists out there and the great quality of the minds involved -- minds such as yours.

Though I am very proud of my success, I do not see how it alone has persuaded anyone to become an Objectivist. Those that have observed my success have often put it down to luck or exploitation of others or similar drivel. It seems obvious that we need more speaking out, not less. Of course, I do not mean inappropriate proselytizing. One must choose one’s audience and time, not do it at random.

“Living one’s own life successfully instead of trying to persuade others” is a false alternative. The two are not mutually exclusive. In fact, the workplace is an area that offers many opportunities for promoting ideas. In retrospect, I wish I’d done more of it.

The question of when and how to persuade people is good one and worthy of a lot of discussion. But the more fundamental question is, “Is it worth it?” I say yes!  What would it take to convince you to try, Regi?

Perhaps there is more progress than you are aware of.

On the Objectivism Online Forum, Betsy Speicher responded to the question, “Where is there any evidence of the spread of Objectivism?“ as follows:

All over the place!

Here are a few items from my CyberNet in just the past month:

An Objectivist Conference in Europe
An Objectivist Conference in Virginia
An Objectivist opening a psychotherapy practice
28 books by Objectivists in the Amazon Top 100K books
10 Objectivists in the Amazon Top 10K reviewers
Several references to Ayn Rand in the media including a UPI syndicated story
19 publications or references to ARI op-eds in the press
Articles and Letters by Objectivists in major publications
An Objectivist with a regular radio show on 30 stations
12 lectures by Objectivists
Yaron Brook appearing on The O'Reilly Factor on Fox News 4/7/04

*** Yaron Brook appearing on Geraldo at Large TONIGHT 4/17/04 ***

And THIS ...

The University of South Carolina's Moore School of Business just
received $1 million from BB&T to set up a faculty position to teach
and research the moral foundations of capitalism.

In addition to creating the BB&T Chair for the Study of Capitalism,
the donation will fund undergraduate and graduate courses to study Ayn
Rand's _Atlas Shrugged_, establish a speaker series on capitalism and
add an Ayn Rand reading room to the business school's Springs
Library.

JOHN ALLISON, CEO and chairman of BB&T, announced the grant yesterday
(3/24/04). The news appeared in The State (Columbia, SC)
<http://tinyurl.com/yu8e9>, the USC student newspaper
<http://tinyurl.com/3ethv>, and syndicated by the Associated Press
<http://tinyurl.com/2hqzv>.

To this list I will add the fact that sales of Rand’s books continue to grow at a much faster rate than the population. It is still early, Reg!


Post 6

Monday, April 26, 2004 - 1:15pmSanction this postReply
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Michael,

Congratulations on your success. I'm sure it would have been sooner and better if it had not been for the freeloaders and parasites you had to carry while you were doing it.

To this list I will add the fact that sales of Rand’s books continue to grow at a much faster rate than the population.
 
I am aware of the increased interest and Rand, even in academia (which actually makes me a little suspicious), and I did point out Dr. Sciabarra's article, "The Cultural Ascendancy of Ayn Rand," in which he points out that very thing.

It is still early, Reg!

Well, not for me, but for others and you, I hope it is true.

Thanks for the interesting comments.

Regi


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Monday, April 26, 2004 - 4:50pmSanction this postReply
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Well, bravo Regi!

As someone who has spent many years of my life attempting to "convince" others - I have to heartily agree with what you've said.

In many respects, Objectivism is like Christianity. I know this, because before I became an "evangelical" Objectivist - I was an evangelical Christian.

I simply changed my philosophy - but not my modus operandi!

It took me 15 years to change my mind, and my ways.

I now know, with certainty, that freedom will not come by attempting to convince others of the value of it.

However, freedom is available to any individual who claims it, and is prepared to do what is necessary to implement it. And it was when I finally realised this (some 6 years ago or so), that I gave up on politics and the futile attempt of trying to convince others - and concentrated on my own life.




Post 8

Tuesday, April 27, 2004 - 5:39pmSanction this postReply
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Regi,

Just so you don't think I ditched your question, I am posting this to inform you I am working up a clear explination of how I persuade people and my general theory on this enterprise.  Its taking longer to put it to words than I though it would.  Give my profile a read and you can see that I have been looking deep into the 'HOW' for the war for mens minds.  I won't be able to give you a full run down of the HOW but I will post what I have been doing to establish a HOW and what I have found to work so far.

Be with you by the end of the week most likly,

Eric.  :-)


Post 9

Tuesday, April 27, 2004 - 6:55pmSanction this postReply
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David,

I wanted to acknowledge you very nice and interesting comments before this thread got away.

However, freedom is available to any individual who claims it, and is prepared to do what is necessary to implement it. And it was when I finally realised this (some 6 years ago or so), that I gave up on politics and the futile attempt of trying to convince others - and concentrated on my own life.

But most people really do not want freedom or even know what it is. How sad.

By the way, you might get a kick out of "We have evangelical Objectivism" in my article: "Brave New Objectivism."

Cheers!

Regi


Post 10

Tuesday, April 27, 2004 - 6:59pmSanction this postReply
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Eric,

Its taking longer ... than I thought it would.
 
I know about that. It always does.

Don't hurry. Do a good job. I'm patient.

Regi


Post 11

Wednesday, April 28, 2004 - 6:01pmSanction this postReply
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Yes, Regi, I had read your "Brave New Objectivism" before - and found it most interesting.

Actually, my own comparison of Christian evangelism with Objectivist evangelism lead me to come up with a theory which has been simmering in my mind for a couple of years now.

I call it the "redemption by passing it on" theory.

When I was a Christian - which is now nearly 30 years ago - I was serious about it. In fact, it was this seriousness that lead me to have to walk away from it after nearly four years - because I was convinced of my hypocrisy in not being able to live up to the beliefs.

However, I noted an interesting phenomenon back then, amongst Christians who didn't appear to suffer from this awareness of inner hypocrisy.

To such people, being a good Christian meant "witnessing". It meant making the effort to win over others. So, as long as you were making an effort to convince others - you were deemed to be acting like a Christian. In fact, you WERE a good Christian.

I see a very similar phenomenon with evangelical Objectivism. It is concerned primarily with convincing others - and it is in the "convincing" that being a "good" Objectivist is defined.

The strange thing about this type of "activism" - is all that is happening is the passing on of a set of ideas - not the implementation of the ideas themselves.

In other words, the "passing on the ideas" becomes a substitute for living the ideas.

Hence, a good Objectivist is then one who spends time convincing others of the soundness of Objectivist philosophical ideas. You can lecture, you can write books, you can harangue your friends and neighbours - but whatever you do, you simply must "pass it on".

In this regard, Objectivism IS operating under exactly the same assumption as Christianity. That is - if only Objectivists would take up the task of convincing others (intellectual activism), then the philosophy would spread - and in spreading would influence society.

Christianity has had over 2000 years. I'm not sure whether any Christian could honestly say society today is any more Christian than at any time in the past. And yet this is still the driving force of Christianity - to spread the word.

Yes, it's much harder to just be quiet, and get on with living life according to one's philosophy.

Post 12

Wednesday, April 28, 2004 - 10:37pmSanction this postReply
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I have only recently in my life come in contact with Objectivist Ideas nine months ago, i have since read everything that has been penned by Ayn Rand because firstly I have an obsessive drive to learn when I am interested in a subject and secondly because I thought, rightfuly so, that this was the correct ideas.  Finaly something grounded in reality that could be practiced without the contradictions in ideology that are so present in religious doctrine and other secular philosophies.

David Said:
The strange thing about this type of "activism" - is all that is happening is the passing on of a set of ideas - not the implementation of the ideas themselves.

In other words, the "passing on the ideas" becomes a substitute for living the ideas.
In the past three months, I have started my private study of Objectivism as a movement compared to my understanding of how the Leftists work as a movement.  I have to say that I have seen exactly what you have commented on above here over the past three months.  Although the Leftists have their own preach don't practice mentality that they are always trying to overcome as a movement, a good percentage more Leftists practice what they preach than Objectivists. 

I spent two and  a half years in Western Massachusetts (In the Berkshires) and anyone who has ever visited the streets of Pittsfield or Northhampton can see the many homeless punks begging for change and eating out of dumpsters practiceing their plans to thwart the system.  Also you can currently visit the remains of what was once a working factory town called Adams where the consisten practices of socialist unions drove the mills into the ground.

Indeed, I would say that if we measure quality of ideas Vs. quantity of practice we would find that the Leftists and Objectivists are not just mirror images of each other ideologicaly but also mirror images of each other in terms of implimentation of ideas.

Leftists are avid implimentors of horrid ideas,  Objectivists are horrid implimentors with wonderous ideas.

I think this has to do with the history of Objectivism in regards to TOC and ARI.  Neither of these groups are about implimentation as much as they are evangelical churchs, one protestant the other orthadox.  As a movement Objectivism on the Macro level (nation and world wide) has never left the research and development stage.  Only in rare cases on the Micro level has implimention started to occur.

Some business leaders like this Architect are an example of the Micro level implimentation.
http://www.gibson-design.com/index.html

Macro Level implimention would need either a very well organized and influenial minority of Objectivists or considerably more Micro level implimention.

I am working on a way to analyze different philosophical movements to figure out what makes them sucsessful the above is one of the issues.  Another is related to How they persuade people and what kind of people they persuade.  (again working out my preliminary ideas on the How of Persuasion for Objectivism based on what I have done so far.)

Regards: The Insomniatic Wonder,

Eric J. Tower.


Post 13

Thursday, April 29, 2004 - 11:27pmSanction this postReply
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I think this conversation is suffering from bad sampling.  It should be obvious that if you look at the Objectivist movement (i.e., the people involved in promoting the philosophy) you're going to find all of them "preach".  That's like going to an alcoholics anonymous meeting and trying to figure out how many people used to drink.  So there's no surprise at all that you're going to have a bias towards "preaching".

Of the people "preaching", many don't have a very deep grasp of Objectivism.  A significant number are just trying to understand it better.  So when people are talking about Objectivist activists, are they talking about random people who basically agree with the philosophy (what they know of it) and participate in an open forum?  If those are included in the sampling, isn't that a little misleading?

Another possibility is that the sampling is based on visibility.  I happen to know there are very successful people in SOLO.  They earn a lot of money, they're happy with their jobs, they're intelligent, etc.  And they participate very little, primarily because they have so much else to do.  Contrast this with a student or someone who's unemployed or does the minimal amount of work at their jobs.  They've got all the time in the world to post or otherwise participate.

Eric made the point that Objectivist activists are mirror images of Leftist activists.  But that just confirms the point that you're making generalizations based on a faulty data set.

Now all that being said, I'd further question the validity of the generalizations.  Do you see the details of people's lives outside of the forums?  I know many Objectivists who are wealthy, successful at their jobs, and generally happy.  And they still find time to be involved in activism.  You won't see this from chatting about politics with them on a forum.   Try going to a SOLO conference, and you'll see people who understand that this is a philosophy for living.


Post 14

Friday, April 30, 2004 - 4:33amSanction this postReply
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Joe said:

A significant number are just trying to understand it better.  So when people are talking about Objectivist activists, are they talking about random people who basically agree with the philosophy (what they know of it) and participate in an open forum?  If those are included in the sampling, isn't that a little misleading?

Another possibility is that the sampling is based on visibility.  I happen to know there are very successful people in SOLO.  They earn a lot of money, they're happy with their jobs, they're intelligent, etc.  And they participate very little, primarily because they have so much else to do.  Contrast this with a student or someone who's unemployed or does the minimal amount of work at their jobs.  They've got all the time in the world to post or otherwise participate.

Eric made the point that Objectivist activists are mirror images of Leftist activists.  But that just confirms the point that you're making generalizations based on a faulty data set.

Your right, point well taken.  I should be more careful to point out when I am just steaming off with observational conjecture.
(Polite way of saying shit I have noticed from what I have seen). 

Heres a list of the limitations with what I have posted above in post #12:

1.) The above generalizations are all based on observation.  (In this case a very limited scope as I have only just started)
2.) I have not by any means established any working population set for statistical study.
3.) I have not defined what level of understanding of the philosophy would constitue someone an objectivist activist.
4.) There are a lot more variables that would need to be worked out before any of the conjecture in post #12 could be considered remotely scientific polling.

Incidently, Joe, when and where is the next Solo Conference? Any talk about it going on behind the scenes?

Regards,

Eric.


Post 15

Friday, April 30, 2004 - 2:12pmSanction this postReply
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There is some talk of another conference behind the scenes.  I'd rather not commit either way right now, though.  You'll have to wait.  Or you can contact Elizabeth and offer suggestions on format, time, and location.

Post 16

Sunday, May 2, 2004 - 10:24amSanction this postReply
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Eric, David, Joe,

Jonathan Barrett and David Mayes have made comments similar to those made by David MacGregor and I ( 2, and 4, 7, and 11
) on the Applying Objectivism poll discussion thread.

I have invited them to this thread to comment.

Regi



Post 17

Sunday, May 2, 2004 - 9:22pmSanction this postReply
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Yep, interesting thread Regi, thanks for bringing it to my attention.

FTR, I consider it a waste of energy believing that en masse TRUTH conversion can occur at this point of mankinds evolutionary stage.
That doesn't mean that what Ayn Rand did was worthless, only that the masses{those who are dogmatic} are swayed more by the mass media/leadership, IOW trash, than by worthwhile life enhancing doctrines.

I know from experience that many Objectivists reject the idea that we're heading for any enviornmental trouble, but if true, it will be interesting to see how the world reacts, although obviously, those currently embracing nonsense won't suddenly "get a clue".

Btw, I'm in favour of Capitalism, although ideally it should operate inline with what the science of ecology says, whereby sustainability is factored in pragmatically, not ideologically via adopting the Julian Simons mentality that everything will be ok, another billion more means another x amount of genius's who will solve our problems.

Obviously if pops, consumption and manufacturing methods are the problems, then it will be the adjusting of at least one of those factors that will solve our problems, we don't need any genius's to tell us that.


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Post 18

Monday, May 3, 2004 - 5:32amSanction this postReply
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David,

I thought this thread might interest you and am glad it did.

... the masses{those who are dogmatic} are swayed more by the mass media/leadership, IOW trash, than by worthwhile life enhancing doctrines ...
 
Yes, that is true, but...

I'm in favour of Capitalism, although ideally it should operate inline with what the science of ecology says, whereby sustainability is factored in pragmatically ...

...seems to be an example of an opinion swayed by the very mass media/leadership you decry, as well as a contradiction. I have been studying ecology since the word was coined and regard most if junk-science and bunk. Pragmatism, sustainability, and environmentalism are all concepts that are antithetical to Capitalism.

"Save the world, (or earth, or environment, or ecosystem, etc.)" movements have replaced the "save society" movements but are driven by the same collectivist/altruist notions.

Regi


Post 19

Monday, May 3, 2004 - 7:00amSanction this postReply
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...seems to be an example of an opinion swayed by the very mass media/leadership you decry, as well as a contradiction. I have been studying ecology since the word was coined and regard most if junk-science and bunk. Pragmatism, sustainability, and environmentalism are all concepts that are antithetical to Capitalism.

Regi.

I assume that you think a finite amount of land has a unlimited productivity value?
If so, are you suggesting that you believe that we can continue to both increase pops and consumption endlessly?
It seems to me that a unit/area of land or water, needs a relative balance of non-toxic invasion, otherwise it goes troppo, just as a Goldfish bowl functions{maintains life} only when in relative balance, similarly, local areas and eventually the global area needs a relative balance to sustain life....do you disagree with this?


 
"Save the world, (or earth, or environment, or ecosystem, etc.)" movements have replaced the "save society" movements but are driven by the same collectivist/altruist notions.
The environment is the basis of all wealth, and is our life support system.
If our leading scientists keep warning us that we have sustainability issues, AND there are real world examples of companies using "The Natural Step Program*", which saved money and decreased emissions, why would you be anti that?

*I think TNS will score 2 million hits on google.

I advocate a practical philosophy as well as having a version of Full Truth, and my practical philosophy enables industrial society to function by preserving its basis...the environment.


 


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