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Post 20

Monday, May 3, 2004 - 6:59pmSanction this postReply
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David,

The environment is the basis of all wealth, and is our life support system. 

If the "environment is the basis of all wealth", then would you think that a good capitalist will simply ignore the relevant, acceptable, and sufficient implications that this statement brings?  Your tone seems to affirm this presumption.  Let me answer this $64,000 question for you: a good capitalist plans long-term (and those who don't plan long-range simply do not dominate a free market - they don't have big effects).

David, please buy the book "The Skeptical Environmentalist" by Bjorn Lomborg and read it with a critical mind.  To my knowledge there is currently no other book which provides the quantity and quantity of relevant, acceptable, and sufficient data on the major issues of environmental debate.

When at least millions, if not billions, of tax dollars are allocated to various projects, it is absolutely imperative that we run a systematic decision analysis that quantifies probabilities, instrumentalities, and values.

I am not optimistic about appealing to critical reasoning over this issue with you, but I have to give it one more try (please buy the book; or at least find quotes from it online at Google, etc).

Ed


Post 21

Tuesday, May 4, 2004 - 3:20amSanction this postReply
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If the "environment is the basis of all wealth", then would you think that a good capitalist will simply ignore the relevant, acceptable, and sufficient implications that this statement brings?  Your tone seems to affirm this presumption.  Let me answer this $64,000 question for you: a good capitalist plans long-term (and those who don't plan long-range simply do not dominate a free market - they don't have big effects).
Yes, yes Ed, but you and others ignore the undisputable laws of ecology, ie, each area/unit of land has a limited productivity value, and it's the opinion of many scientists that we have breached that limit and are toxifying our soils and water reservoirs{see The Warning to Humanity Statement 1992 and GEO-3 Report 2002,.. 2800 scientists, many senior, warning us}.
These warnings don't back your take on the matter.


 
David, please buy the book "The Skeptical Environmentalist" by Bjorn Lomborg and read it with a critical mind.  To my knowledge there is currently no other book which provides the quantity and quantity of relevant, acceptable, and sufficient data on the major issues of environmental debate.
That book is $60 Aus, and is not the work of a credible scientist, IOW, his specialty is either statistics or political science.
When I'm interested in knowledge on the environment, I seek the environments most knowledgeable, ie, ecologist/biologists, I don't take the word of a scientifically illiterate, absurdly optimistic keyboard operator.



I am not optimistic about appealing to critical reasoning over this issue with you,

You have to answer for the laws of ecology Ed, you have to look into concepts such as eco-footprint and eco-deficit.
It's all very well to assume that we can handle massive increases in pops whilst both globalizing and continuing to increase local consumption, but can the productive base support this??


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Post 22

Tuesday, May 4, 2004 - 5:09amSanction this postReply
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Yes, yes Ed, but you and others ignore the undisputable laws of ecology, ie, each area/unit of land has a limited productivity value, and it's the opinion of many scientists that we have breached that limit and are toxifying our soils and water reservoirs{see The Warning to Humanity Statement 1992 and GEO-3 Report 2002,.. 2800 scientists, many senior, warning us}.
These warnings don't back your take on the matter.
If this is true, then wouldn't we be seeing a decrease in productivity per acre? We're not. Yield per Acre is going up at a remarkable rate.

http://www.usda.gov/nass/aggraphs/cornyld.htm

http://www.usda.gov/nass/aggraphs/riceyld.htm

http://www.usda.gov/nass/aggraphs/crops.htm

Craig


Post 23

Tuesday, May 4, 2004 - 10:09amSanction this postReply
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David,

You have confirmed my earlier pessimism with regard to appealing to critical reasoning in discussions with you. This rules out the possibility of rational discussion aimed at objective presentations of evidence and mutually drawing logically valid, explicit, transparent inferences.

David, I care strongly about truth, understanding, and the personal growth and capacity for love that are only possible to those who care about the truth and understanding ("first seek to understand, ...").

I will not outline the fallacies of reasoning that you used in order to exempt yourself from "seeking to understand" the evidence in the book that I so strongly recommended. Instead, and in the spirit of triage, I will refrain from further engagement with you until and unless you electronically sign my Rational Discussion Treaty (available upon sincere request).

Ed



Post 24

Wednesday, May 5, 2004 - 10:48amSanction this postReply
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I will refrain from further engagement with you until and unless you electronically sign my Rational Discussion Treaty (available upon sincere request

I'm prepared to read your treaty Ed, but I haven't been dishonest or disingenuous, so if you expect me to admit mistakes I haven't made then we have an impasse.



Post 25

Wednesday, May 5, 2004 - 9:43pmSanction this postReply
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David,

My original treaty is in the archive (post 55 to "Objectivist Condemnation of Abortion"-Stolyarov) if you wish to preview my intellectual "aspiration" with it. However, I would like the opportunity to add some more "perspiration" to it. In other words, please wait a few days for my newer, updated, more-insightful version (RDT 2.0).

p.s. I don't believe that you have any actual malice/malevolence toward me (which would, by the way, eradicate the possibility of any productive discussion).

Ed
(Edited by Ed Thompson on 5/05, 9:53pm)


Post 26

Wednesday, May 5, 2004 - 10:16pmSanction this postReply
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No problems Ed...and I agree with you over the idea that malice would be immediate grounds for dismissing a forumer as worthy of reasonable debate.

It's funny to me that at this stage of my life I happen to hold certain views, "some" of them clash with objectivist epistemology, yet some of the people on this forum either ignore me or even go to the extent of creating threads which totally misrepresent me, but if in 2 months or 2 yrs I arrived at this forum and said, hey guys I once was brainwashed by irrational epistemology and have seen the error of my ways,..... you guys would have welcomed me aboard and presumably upped my points tally, but instead I'm being constantly downgraded and literally abused.

Go figure!

David.


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Post 27

Monday, May 17, 2004 - 1:28pmSanction this postReply
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Okay David, the new treaty is up (new article - main page). It's actually one of the rough drafts (minor errors included) from the 3 drafts that I sent - which is a minor mix-up that I take partial credit for - but it is comprehensible nonetheless.

Is it something that you could bring yourself to electronically sign (simple worded affirmation)? If so, please read the axiom links and nominate at least a few (I am simply not willing to carry on in a discussion with someone who explicitly rejects all axioms).

Ed

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