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Thursday, August 5, 2004 - 1:57pmSanction this postReply
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How does objectivism interpret humility? Is it a virtue in itself, or a mere reflection of one's integrity to accept reality as it is (which is a virtue)?

coaltontrail

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Thursday, August 5, 2004 - 7:33pmSanction this postReply
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coalton trail

I am interested in hearing thoughts on this as well. Assuming my interpretation of the term humility in this context to exclude any form of altruism or self-abnegation, more akin to a soft-spoken self-confidence.

One thing that has always struck me about objectivism as seen in Atlas Shrugged and The Fountainhead was that the ideal man seems to carry himself with confidence yet humility. After spending time here at SOLO and reading other current objectivist thought/discussions, the lack of humility is the single biggest difference between Objectivists (as they are in the world today) and Ayn's ideal man. I often have trouble picturing Howard Roark spouting off, name calling, and partaking in the irate banter that peppers our discussion board. How do we objectivists embrace this rational philosophy yet demonstrate behavior so different from Howard, Galt, Dagny and the crew? How did the apple fall so far from the tree?

I would like to hear definitions and commentary on behavioral traits relating to humility as we see it in those ideal characters and ourselves. This is Sense of Life Objectivism, yet that humble (though unfalteringly confident) style seems to be absent from a large portion of those who carry the torch.

Dave

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Thursday, August 5, 2004 - 8:56pmSanction this postReply
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Dave, Coalton.

Being humble I don't see as a virtue if being humble means putting up a false image of yourself.  If you have something to be proud of being humble about it is akin to saying you don't value it.  I don't think that the ideal people of Rand's Fiction were humble. Galt never played down the true greatness of his inventions and life, he was quite proud to take credit for it. However he does not possess a pathological need for other peoples aproval.  He knows his existence speaks for itself and there is no need for him to brag or spout out for attention.

This is how I like to live.  I am not a humble man but I do not possess a pathological need to be seen a heard.  I choose instead to let my rational thoughts, words, actions and life to speak for itself.  If that draws praise I am delighted to recieve it but I am not out to please others with MY life; I am out to please myself.

The humble do not take their own lives as their own moral standard they spend their lives down playing their own lives so that others will not feel bad about their own lives.  They accept other peoples lives as their moral standard of good.

Regards to you Gentlemen,

~E


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Thursday, August 5, 2004 - 10:06pmSanction this postReply
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"Galt never played down the true greatness of his inventions and life"

True, actively "playing down" anything would be artificial and essentially living a lie. This is not what I am stressing in the term humility. Galt put it out there but never sought attention or started rambling about how right he was. His work spoke for itself. No need to run his mouth or argue with those who didn't see it. Also, I refer to the social style shown in Roark's attendance at Kiki Holcombe's parties. There he was, head and shoulders above everyone there, but he wasn't even thinking about obtaining the stage. He wasn't playing down anything, but more in a quiet mode of self-assurance. Obviously, he had a lot of things he could have said to those empty souls, but it wasn't a consideration. Why bother yelling and screaming? Just put it out there and the rest takes care of itself. Keeping it cool and composed in spite of the obvious potential for screaming was a uniquely Randian heroic trait. Humility?


Dave

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Thursday, August 5, 2004 - 9:16pmSanction this postReply
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hi Dave,

I have had the same thoughts in mind. Yes, I used the word humility in the exact sense as you interpreted.

I think there are three types of 'knowledge:' things that I know that I know, 2) things that I know that I don't know and 3) things that I don't know that I don't know. I tend to think that the first and second give rise to self-confidence and the awareness of the third is humility. Does it make sense?

I am not good at arguing philosophy at an abstract level, but I think 'existence exists,' the fundamental premise of objectivism, implies the third as well.

What are your thoughts?

coaltontrail



Post 5

Friday, August 6, 2004 - 12:06amSanction this postReply
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coaltontrail

"I tend to think that the first and second give rise to self-confidence and the awareness of the third is humility."

Right! It goes back to how you started this thread. Being confident about reality as it is now, but also accepting a responsibility to adjust to reality as it changes over time. The unique position of objectivism as a philosophy is that it accepts what IS without compromising what MIGHT BE. Ayn described a system for living life that accounted for reality now (metaphysics), but emphasized that life is dynamic and man needs a process to interpret and adapt to new information (epistemology).

Consequently, the ethics of self-interest and political structure of laissez-faire capitalism grant the most efficient means fostering that interplay of metaphysics and epistemology.

I now seek to explore an addition (*GASP*) to objectivism (it has probably already been thoroughly debated elsewhere) that addresses a social style with respect to a "humble" disposition. It seems that when Ayn fleshed out her ideal man, objectivism inevitably lead to this reserved self-assuredness we've mentioned here ("humility"), in the same way it inevitably lead to capitalism as an ideal political system. Why wasn't Howard challenging those party-goers at Kiki's? Why wasn't he vigorously defending himself when expelled from college? Why didn't John Galt curse his captors when faced with torture and death? How did Dominique Francon carry herself in every social context? How does that compare with the manner in which people engage one another on this website?

Maybe there is a common flaw with many of those who embrace reason as a means of acquiring knowledge but then fail to integrate the other rational virtues (integrity, honesty, pride, etc.) We'll have to think of a better term than humility, but this is helping me understand why I often feel like many objectivists are closer to Rush Limbaugh than Howard Roark.

Dave





Post 6

Friday, August 6, 2004 - 4:56amSanction this postReply
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Humility is the vice of presumption, the hubris of the inferior.

[The Fountainhead]

A person entering a temple seeks release from himself. He wishes to humble his pride, to confess his unworthiness, to beg forgiveness. He finds fulfillment in a sense of abject humility. Man's proper posture in a house of God is on his knees. Nobody in his right mind would kneel within Mr. Roark's temple. The place forbids it. The emotions it suggests are of a different nature: arrogance, audacity, defiance, self-exaltation. It is not a house of God, but the cell of a megalomaniac. It is not a temple, but its perfect antithesis, an insolent mockery of all religion.

Toohey proved that the Stoddard Temple contradicted every brick, stone and precept of history. "I have endeavored to show," he said in conclusion, "that the two essentials of the conception of a temple are a sense of awe and a sense of man's humility.

[The Journals of Ayn Rand
16 - Two Possible Books
To Lorne Dieterling ("Sense of Life")]

Emotional abstractions. An emotional abstraction consists of all those things which have the power to make one experience a certain emotion. For instance: a heroic man, the New York skyline, flying in a plane, a sunlit "stylized" landscape, ecstatic music, an achievement of which one is proud. (These same things will give an emotion of terror and guilt to a man with the wrong premises; all except the last, which is impossible to him.) An opposite example: a humble or depraved man, an old village or ruins, "walking on the moors," a desolate landscape, folk songs or atonal music, the failure of someone else's achievement or ambition.
(The root and common denominator in all these things is self-esteem or lack of it; pro-man or anti-man; pro-life or anti-life.)

[The Objectivist Newsletter: Vol. 4 No. 1   January, 1965
Check Your Premises: Bootleg Romanticism]

For example, consider one of the best works of modern naturalism—Paddy Chayefsky's Marty. It is an extremely sensitive, perceptive, touching portrayal of an humble man's struggle for self-assertion. One can feel sympathy for Marty, and a sad kind of pleasure at his final success. But it is highly doubtful whether anyone—including the thousands of real-life Martys—would be inspired by his example. Nobody could feel: "I want to be like Marty." Everybody (except the most corrupt) can feel: "I want to be like James Bond."

[The Romanic Manifesto
8. Bootleg Romanticism]

This universal need is precisely what today's intellectuals cannot grasp or fill. A seedy, emasculated, unventilated "elite"—a basement "elite" transported, by default, into vacant drawing rooms and barricaded behind dusty curtains against light, air, grammar and reality—today's intellectuals cling to the stagnant illusion of their altruist-collectivist upbringing: the vision of a cloddish, humble, inarticulate people whose "voice" (and masters) they were to be.

[Atlas Shrugged
Part Three / Chapter VII
"This Is John Galt Speaking"]

Accept the fact that the achievement of your happiness is the only moral purpose of your life, and that happiness—not pain or mindless self-indulgence—is the proof of your moral integrity, since it is the proof and the result of your loyalty to the achievement of your values. Happiness was the responsibility you dreaded, it required the kind of rational discipline you did not value yourself enough to assume—and the anxious staleness of your days is the monument to your evasion of the knowledge that there is no moral substitute for happiness, that there is no more despicable coward than the man who deserted the battle for his joy, fearing to assert his right to existence, lacking the courage and the loyalty to life of a bird or a flower reaching for the sun. Discard the protective rags of that vice which you called a virtue: humility—learn to value yourself, which means: to fight for your happiness—and when you learn that pride is the sum of all virtues, you will learn to live like a man.

[The Ayn Rand Letter
Vol. 1, No. 14  April 10, 1972
The Shanghai Gesture--Part II]
And those who regard humility as a virtue, should ask themselves whether it is becoming to the President of a great country when he deals with its enemies. Of all the possible variants, Pragmatist humility is the worst: the silly reference to "infallibility" is embarrassingly awful in that context. This is an epistemological, i.e., a philosophical, issue. Infallibility is not a precondition of knowing what one does know, of firmness in one's convictions, and of loyalty to one's values. Since Mr. Nixon's Chinese adversaries have made it amply clear that they do not intend ever "to re-examine their own attitudes," the declaration served notice on them that Mr. Nixon does, that he is prepared to re-examine, to reverse—or to betray—anything.

[The Ayn Rand Letter
Vol. III, No. 13  March 25, 1974
Moral Inflation--Part II]

Here are some of the things that men had to evade in order to think up a moral atrocity such as a "National Day of Humiliation."
Self-abasement is the antithesis of morality. If a man has acted immorally, but regrets it and wants to atone for it, it is not self-abasement that prompts him, but some remnant of love for moral values—and it is not self-abasement that he expresses, but a longing to regain his self-esteem. Humility is not a recognition of one's failings, but a rejection of morality. "I am no good" is a statement that may be uttered only in the past tense. To say: "I am no good" is to declare: "- and I never intend to be any better."

[For the New Intellectual]

The echoes answering them are the voices of the plain, medieval Witch Doctors that are beginning to be heard again, preaching the doctrine of man's innate, preordained impotence, of humility, passivity, submission and resignation—here, in New York City, the greatest monument to the potency of man's mind—and proclaiming that all the disasters of the modern age are man's punishment for the pride of relying on his intellect, for his attempt to improve his condition, to establish a rational society and to achieve a perfect way of life on earth.

[The Journals of Ayn Rand
14 - Notes While Writing Galt's Speech]

The vices of the Life Morality: non-thinking—which means the evasion of knowledge, the placing of anything whatever above your own mind, any form of mysticism, of faith, or denial of reality; dependence—the placing of others above yourself in any manner whatever, either as authority or as love; aimlessness—the non-integrated life; pain—the submission to it or acceptance of it; humility—the acceptance of one's moral imperfection, the willingness to be imperfect, which means: the indifference to moral values and to yourself, i.e., self-abnegation; the initiation of force—as the destruction of the mind, as the method contrary to man's form of survival, as the anti-man and anti-life.

[The Same]

Your morality disarms you and protects itself from your mind by making a virtue of imperfection: humility is a virtue, pride is a sin. It gives you a blank check on evil and forces you to give a blank check to others. If you cannot be proud of yourself, you cannot condemn any depravity. The man who is unable to praise himself is unable to blame anything on anyone.

[The New Left: The Anti-Industrial Revolution
The Comprachicos]

But humility and hostility are two sides of the same coin. An overwhelming hostility toward all men is his basic emotion, his automatic context for the concept "man." Every stranger he meets is a potential threat—a member of that mystic entity, "others," which rules him—an enemy to appease and to deceive.
[The Objectivist Newsletter: Vol. 2 No. 1  January, 1963
Check Your Premises: Collectivized Ethics]

Humility and presumptuousness are always two sides of the same premise, and always share the task of filling the space vacated by self-esteem in a collectivized mentality. The man who is willing to serve as the means to the ends of others, will necessarily regard others as the means to his ends. The more neurotic he is or the more conscientious in the practice of altruism (and these two aspects of his psychology will act reciprocally to reinforce each other), the more he will tend to devise schemes "for the good of mankind" or of "society" or of "the public" or of "future generations"—or of anything except actual human beings.


Post 7

Friday, August 6, 2004 - 5:21amSanction this postReply
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HI All,

I have always thought of humility as being the antithesis of pride. Pride is well documented in Objectivism as a virtue. The trouble, I think, comes in the form of Arrogance or Hubris, which is an irrational state where you beleive you know more than you actually do, or are better than you are.

Ethan


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Friday, August 6, 2004 - 5:36amSanction this postReply
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Years before I had even heard of Objectivism, I considered humility to be a form of dishonesty...as is arrogance.  Both are confidence coupled with dishonesty.  One places personal worth too low, the other places it too high.  In no case is it an honest assessment of your own person.

In this respect, I see pride, as a virtue, as honest confidence.


Post 9

Friday, August 6, 2004 - 6:17amSanction this postReply
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Hi, Regi.

>>Humility is the vice of presumption.<<

Not always.  Any virtue can be twisted into a vice if it is not practiced objectively.  Just as my humility can devolve into self-debasement, my pride can become conceit, if I am not relating to things as they are and instead relating to them as I fear or wish them to be.

For example, there would be very few people here (the inestimable Mr. Firehammer, I humbly submit, being one of the few ;) who would not practice humility upon meeting Ayn Rand.  Doing so would not be a vice.  It is the deference and respect one pays to greatness -- in this case, Rand's superior achievements in philosophy.

Humility is the recognition of greatness in others, just as pride is the recognition of greatness in ourselves.  Only when we use humility or pride with respect to that which is not great, do they become vices.  So when it comes to vice or virtue I believe the pertinent question is:  Does this deserve my humility (if assessing another) or my pride (if assessing myself)?

Regards,
Bill


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Friday, August 6, 2004 - 12:08pmSanction this postReply
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Bill,

For example, there would be very few people here (the inestimable Mr. Firehammer, I humbly submit, being one of the few ;) who would not practice humility upon meeting Ayn Rand.  Doing so would not be a vice.  It is the deference and respect one pays to greatness -- in this case, Rand's superior achievements in philosophy.

You are right, Mr. Firehammer would be very careful not to even accidentally display what might be considered "humility" less it be mistaken for obsequiousness, which thing Ayn Rand would hate.

One's value to himself is not determined by the relative value of others. If a person is good, i.e. a moral person of integrity, that's what he is. The presence of another person of moral integrity, however much they have achieved, does not at all diminish an individual's self-worth, nor does the presence of another person who is a moral degenerate increase the individual's self-worth. A person's self-worth (pride) or self-loathing (humility) must be determined by what they know they are, not how they compare to others.

(I hate dogs that cower. I would prefer a dog to attack me than to cower and whimper. If a dog does attack me, it dies; but I still prefer it cowering.)

The ability to recognize the greatness of others is itself a thing to be proud of. Pride and humility are matters of evaluation, self-evaluation. The person who is "humble" in the presence of others is simply devaluating themselves; any person who expects that of someone else is a despicable and shameful human being. Example, most religious leaders, politicians, and government thugs (e.g. police and other "enforcement" agents).

As Oriana Fallaci would say, "I spit on them all."

Regi




Post 11

Friday, August 6, 2004 - 12:11pmSanction this postReply
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Ethan,

Pride is well documented in Objectivism as a virtue. The trouble, I think, comes in the form of Arrogance or Hubris, which is an irrational state ...
 
Exactly!


Post 12

Friday, August 6, 2004 - 12:19pmSanction this postReply
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Ayn: "Self-abasement is the antithesis of morality"

Regi: "Humility is the vice of presumption, the hubris of the inferior.

Rat: "Humility is the recognition of greatness in others"

Humility seems to be already defined in such a way that clearly conveys submission, inferiority, denial of pride, etc. I concede that humility, as it is defined, is not a virtue.

Given that concession, does anyone have some feedback on the "social style" of reserved self-confidence in the face of the absurd/irrational. It's that manner of speaking that all Rand's ideal characters showed in the presence of looters. Not humility for sure, but something else. The sense of pride is there, but a total lack of interest in conflict with the mindless screamers seems to keep the hero quiet. Even around other producers in the Gulch, there seems to be a pervasive style. One that is clearly not verbose, wordy, arrogant, vain. Yet never for a moment does that style convey a submission of the self or inferiority. In the presence of the looters it is meaningless to be argumentative. In the presence of producers it is an unspoken acceptance of common values that renders much conversation unnecessary. The common feature is the lack of "spouting off" or an absence of outspoken proclamations of superiority/righteousness. They were superior and righteous, but never felt motivated to scream it to everyone. What's that called?

Dave



Post 13

Friday, August 6, 2004 - 12:21pmSanction this postReply
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Joe Trusnik,

... I considered humility to be a form of dishonesty...as is arrogance.
 
Oh yes, I agree. Humility is acutally a kind of arrogance, itself. It is an attempt to cash in on one's perceived inferiority, it is a claim of moral superiority based on one's own metaphorical self-immolation. "Look how good and humble I am."


Post 14

Friday, August 6, 2004 - 12:24pmSanction this postReply
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Dave asked: "What's that called?"

True confidence and self-esteem.



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Friday, August 6, 2004 - 1:42pmSanction this postReply
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Hi, Regi.

An obsequious Mr. Firehammer strikes me as a metaphysical impossibility.  Therefore, with all due humility, deference, and respect, I acknowledge the superiority of your argument.

Regards,
Bill


Post 16

Saturday, August 7, 2004 - 11:56amSanction this postReply
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Ayn: "Self-abasement is the antithesis of morality"

Regi: "Humility is the vice of presumption, the hubris of the inferior.

Rat: "Humility is the recognition of greatness in others"

Ed: "Humility, as the word has most often been used, is the absence of moral ambition. Within a moral man, it is never more than a transient 'condition' which limits, and eventually defeats, itself. There is nothing and no one standing above the potentiality of human rationality."

Ed

Post 17

Saturday, August 7, 2004 - 3:59pmSanction this postReply
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I suppose it's a matter of how you define humility. I have never thought of humility as being the opposite of pride. I consider shame the opposite of pride. Humility, to me, is the opposite of hubris (false pride).

Humility is the virtue of always keeping things in perspective.
Humility is the Principle of Conservatism applied to one's self-evaluation.
Humility keeps you grounded in reality when your accomplishments make you seem invincible.
Humility is what makes you double-check your work, even when you're convinced it's flawless.
Humility never lets you lose sight of your own fallibility (and we are all fallible, like it or not).
Humility is looking inward periodically to check on the state of operations.
Humility is honesty in recognizing your own shortcomings.

I am immensely proud of all of my achievements, but humility will always remind me that I must continue to achieve, and continue to improve. Those who think themselves greater than they are will eventually suffer the consequences of that mistake. It is hubris, not pride, that goeth before a fall.

Gordon


Post 18

Sunday, August 8, 2004 - 11:06amSanction this postReply
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Mr. Ellis: "I suppose it's a matter of how you define humility. I have never thought of humility as being the opposite of pride. I consider shame the opposite of pride. Humility, to me, is the opposite of hubris (false pride)."

Mr. Ellis: "I am immensely proud of all of my achievements, but humility will always remind me that I must continue to achieve, and continue to improve. "

Resonates with the views I tried to express. Thank you.

coaltontrail

Post 19

Sunday, August 8, 2004 - 6:17pmSanction this postReply
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I agree with Gordon Ellis. 

Humility is not about false modesty or undervaluing yourself... humility is a tool for properly down-valuing yourself, when your self-appraisal is too high.

On the other hand, if your self-appraisal is too low, then pride is called for, in order to raise you up to the truthful level of sense of self-worth.



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