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Wednesday, August 18, 2004 - 9:09pmSanction this postReply
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There's a fantasy writer named Terry Goodkind who blatantly ripped off Ayn Rand's philosophy in the sixth book of his Sword of Truthseries, and again in the recent eigth release. The books aren't particularly well-written or edited, but the author's imagination got me hooked, so I read the books. Goodkind has so far given absolutely no credit to Rand, even though he almost re-wrote Atlas Shrugged as a fantasy epic in book six, titled Faith of the Fallen. How you can have objectivism and its rejection of mysticism alongside sorcery and forays into the underworld, I have no idea. But the author sloppily kludged the two conflicting principles together, offering no resolution to the discrepancy.

Now, on to Ayn herself:
I don't particularly care for the hubris that we are equipped to know a single reality, or that such a reality even exists. (Quantum theory seems to tear holes in the idea of a singular, concrete reality). In fact, that kind of thinking leads to a dogmatic, and potentially fascist, mindset, rejecting the possibility of "maybe." All indications are that reality is different for different people, and that by consensus we accept certain things to be true. If there is one concrete reality, then how come no one can agree upon it, and who determines what that reality is, and why should others accept this arbitrary determination, when it is counter to what they know?

I also don't care for the rejection of outside factors in determining one's fate. Sure, it may be possible for someone in a war-torn ghetto to rise out of his situation, but the obstacles are incredible, and to assume that all people have even close to the same opportunity is patently ridiculous. Yes, even someone in such a disadvantaged state is accountable for what they do and become, but Rand's philosophy coldly and inacurately rejects the crucial role of environment in determining who one is and becomes and can be. It gives people an excuse not to better our worlds and to continue class stratification and discrimination, and the worst kind of social Darwinism. Reason is NOT the only guide to ethics. Reason alone can be used to justify any kind of horror. Adopting an inaccurate reality, like the Nazis, and using reason to live it out, can lead to tremendous disaster. And don't tell me the Nazis didn't exercise reason: they were the strongest induistrial power in the world, with the most advanced technology, until the Japanese "awoke the sleeping giant" while the Nazis fought a 2 front war.

Ayn Rand also rejects altruism, saying you should live selfishly and never help others. Ridiculous. Selfish pursuit is what is destroying the world. A little altruism goes a long way, and it betters the spirit of both the giving and receiving parties. The last thing we need is MORE selfishness, look what the blind pursuit of wealth has wrought over the past few years!
Last, Ayn Rand says that the use of force is wrong unless done in self-defense, and then says free market Capitalism is the only system in which the use of force becomes obsolete. Huh? In what parallel universe did she live? Capitalism is inextricable linked with the use of force. How do people acquire and maintain the property required in such a system? They TAKE it, and the only reason they KEEP it is the threat of violence. Choctaws used to roam the land I am on right now. Through superior numbers and technology, and the earliest instance of chemical warfare (deliberately spreading smallpox and other diseases), this land was taken from people who considered it their territory, but not their possesion. This was driven purely by econmic imperialism, which is part and parcel of Capitalism. Capitalism gives the incentive to not only conquer through violence, but to dominate through economic bullyism. Capitalism rewards the wrong insticts, those that are damaging and that atomize society instead of bringing harmony. Man in his natural element, ask any anthropologist, is communitarian in nature. The Capitalist system is therefore extremely violent and counter to instincts, and centuries of experimentation bear this out.

Ayn Rand is fascist. She has the ability to put her ideas forth very persuasively, but she shares some very odd, very dangerous, irresponsible and hypocritical beliefs with those who are running, and ruining, the world. I hope that you think about these things and don't blindly accept her teachings, which resonante well with those few who benefit from our inequitable system: but those who benefit become an ever shrinking number.

 

"You are not what you own." --Fugazi


Post 1

Wednesday, August 18, 2004 - 10:00pmSanction this postReply
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>>  Ayn Rand also rejects altruism, saying you should live selfishly and never help others.

No she didn't.  Try (carefully) reading 'The Virtue of Selfishness' before you attempt to summarise Rand's views.

The rest of your post is full of equally absurd strawman arguments which are not even worth responding to.

By the way, your use of the present tense is puzzling, as Rand died in the 1980s.

Keep reading.


Post 2

Wednesday, August 18, 2004 - 9:57pmSanction this postReply
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Why I don't like Ayn Rand. Thats what it's supposed to say.

Post 3

Wednesday, August 18, 2004 - 10:10pmSanction this postReply
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Actually I am a very open minded person. If you explain to me in greater detail why I am wrong then I might change my mind.

Post 4

Wednesday, August 18, 2004 - 11:58pmSanction this postReply
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Oh wow.  Hahaha!  Talk about belly-laughing!

Look, Kid.  Read more about Objectivism on your own.  I won't speak for anyone else, but I'm not looking for converts; I'm looking for people who don't want to be converted by others.  People that look into available material and then ask questions and then decide what to live by. 

Make up your own mind about these things.  Don't ask others to make it up for you by "changing your mind".  There's plenty of browsing room on SOLOHQ, so put it to use.  That crap you posted is totally refuted on just about every archive page they have around here.  It's your brain, not ours.  If you want to change your mind, do it yourself.  It's always nice to have bright people help you out, but they'll be much less inclined to do so if you come to the table with empty pockets.

And if you bother to go to Terry Goodkind's website you'll find that you're completely wrong...again. 

(Edited by Jeremy on 8/19, 12:06am)


Post 5

Thursday, August 19, 2004 - 12:19amSanction this postReply
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Your absolutely right. The thing is that I have starting reading some stuff about Objectivism and its made me question all of my old beliefs. That stuff I posted before was actually written by a friend of mine. I told him I was starting to get into objectivism and he flipped out. So he e-mailed me that essay. I just wanted to see how easily you guys could destroy his argument. Sorry about that, i know it was kind of low. I just don't know enough about objectivism to make any real argument against him. That's why I am here to learn.

Post 6

Thursday, August 19, 2004 - 7:28amSanction this postReply
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That's why I am here to learn.
 
Great.  That's a start.  But a piece of advice: don't post ill-informed shotgun-blast rants about the entirety--or what your "friend" thought was the entirety--of Objectivism.  It's...well, ranty.  It would be entertaining to see one of SOLOHQ's many bright minds answer and annihilate each and every sentence of that post, but personally I wouldn't waste time on it.  (A post of such little value deserves no more time than it takes read and laugh at, and advise the poster to seek guidance in some form.)

Like Jonathan asked of you, Keep Reading!  It's the best way to learn.  And if you have individual questions about a certain something within Objectivism, ask them that way: individually.  This usually leads to offshoots and corollaries and links and...well, let's just say Objectivism lies upon a much firmer and far-reaching foundation than your "friend's" post might lead one to believe.  But that's all up to you; you've got to evaluate that particular statement on your own.  If you get stuck on an idea, then try using your SOLOMail feature to ask someone about it.  Ask someone like...Ed Thompson, or Joe Rowlands (SOLO President, or Executive-Something-or-Other), or Regi Firehammer! He's a riot. 

But don't ask Linz!!!  He's...well...just, whatever you do, do not ask Linz!!!!!!!  (Lindsay Perigo, SOLO Founder and the only man around here I suspect could match me shot-for-shot of Absolut.)
 
Or me, now that I think about it...don't ask me.  I'm far too sassy.

I suppose this could be the official "Educating the Kid" thread....whatever. 

Anywho, good luck and stuff.



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Post 7

Thursday, August 19, 2004 - 10:11amSanction this postReply
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Terry Goodkind did not "rip off" objectivism in his books (including his best one, faith of the fallen). he simply used objectivism as the central theme of his books.

he does give credit to ayn rand in interviews, and letters.

he did not re-write atlas shrugged. faith of the fallen had the same theme (objectivism), but very different characters, setting, and a completely different plot.

be warned, objectivists, if you ever try to write a novel about heroes who stand up for your objectivist principals, rotters will come out of the woodwork saying you plagiarized ayn rand.

"I don't particularly care for the hubris that we are equipped to know a single reality, or that such a reality even exists."

yet you assert accusations about an author. is that author unreal? how do you know that he stole ayn rand's ideas? you aren't equipped to know reality, right? oh, maybe in your subjective reality, he re-wrote her novel, but you see, in my subjective reality he didn't.

"Ayn Rand also rejects altruism, saying you should live selfishly and never help others. Ridiculous. Selfish pursuit is what is destroying the world."

what world? your subjective one? in my world, it's selflessness that's the cause of destruction.

"All indications are that reality is different for different people, and that by consensus we accept certain things to be true."

heh heh. what kind of "indications" are those? after all, if you aren't equipped to know reality, are you equipped to know that reality is different for different people?

what indications are these? sensory input? i thought your ilk rejected the senses...

something else? faith?

i reject your general consensus.

you're not equipped to know reality? why don't you stand up for that principle, and ignore your senses next time they tell you a car is coming down the road at you?

or are you a hypocrite?

your life, or your rejection of your senses. this is the choice that reality places before you.



eli

Post 8

Thursday, August 19, 2004 - 10:16amSanction this postReply
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"Your absolutely right. The thing is that I have starting reading some stuff about Objectivism and its made me question all of my old beliefs. That stuff I posted before was actually written by a friend of mine. I told him I was starting to get into objectivism and he flipped out. So he e-mailed me that essay. I just wanted to see how easily you guys could destroy his argument. Sorry about that, i know it was kind of low. I just don't know enough about objectivism to make any real argument against him. That's why I am here to learn."

eh, i didn't see this.

well, my previous post still stands, in response to your friend's essay.

eli

Post 9

Thursday, August 19, 2004 - 10:44amSanction this postReply
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Sorry about that. I should have said I didn't write it in the first place. But thanks for the responses. Ill have to introduce my friend to this forum.

Post 10

Thursday, August 19, 2004 - 3:10pmSanction this postReply
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He'd better not be an ass.  I'd hate for the Mods to have to unleash the Ban-Hammer of Death.

Post 11

Thursday, August 19, 2004 - 4:22pmSanction this postReply
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"He'd better not be an ass."

um, did you read his essay?

Post 12

Thursday, August 19, 2004 - 4:31pmSanction this postReply
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Yeah, I did.

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Post 13

Thursday, August 19, 2004 - 4:37pmSanction this postReply
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Shy Kid,

 

I’d like to offer some thoughts on your friend’s essay. I hope that your second post was genuine, but you must realize that you don’t win any points for integrity by passing off somebody else’s ideas as your own – especially if you don’t actually agree with those ideas.

 

Sorcery in Fiction

I can’t speak to Terry Goodkind’s novels, having never read them. (Many on this forum have, though.) What I can say is that there’s nothing wrong with the concepts of sorcery and fantasy in the context of fiction. You can suspend disbelief. In a fictional, fantasy world, concepts such as magic become part of the reality of that world. I’m a big fan of the Star Wars movies. The Jedi often get a bad rap from Objectivists for “trusting their feelings.” But in the Star Wars universe, the Force is a metaphysical reality and a Jedi’s feelings are “sense organs” for identifying and putting to use that resource. But it’s important not to blur the distinction between fiction and real life. Someone who believes they can cast magic spells in real life is prime for a mental institution. It would be wrong to trust your feelings at the expense of reason in this world.

 

Reality

Objectivism holds that there is a single, objective reality. By that I mean that no-one “decides” what reality is – it’s subject to no-one’s consciousness. You use the term “fascistic” with regard to reality. I presume that to mean that there is some dictator somewhere who decides what reality is. Not true.

 

There are all sorts of logical loopholes in the “multiple realities” arguments. You suggest that reality is “different for different people” yet somehow we “determine truth by consensus.” How is this possible of realities are different? I think the key point here is to distinguish between reality and perception. People may perceive things differently, but that does not mean their “realities” are different.

 

There are the textbook examples of the color-blind man and the regular-sighted man looking a red ball. The first man sees a ball of the color grey, the second a ball of the color red. It’s a fact that both men see a ball. It’s a fact that both men see it appear as a color. It’s a fact that one man has a deficiency in his eyes that causes him to see a different color than the other.

 

Then there’s the pencil in the glass of water. The pencil appears to be bent. But we know it’s not. The reality of the pencil doesn’t change when we put it in the water. Our perception of it does due to the way light reflects through water.

 

The point is that we are equipped to identify the facts of reality. We’re equipped to know the pencil’s not bent. People disagree because they’ve misperceived reality, they’re misinformed or they’re dishonest.

 

I don’t know anything about Quantum theory. (Again, there are plenty here that do.) But being a “theory” suggests it’s unproven. Metaphysics is not my forte - there are better minds here to offer some ideas.

 

Fate and Determinism

Objectivism doesn’t pretend that people have equal opportunities or equal ability. Yes, outside influences have a heavy influence on a person’s choices, but they do not determine them. There’s an important distinction. Objectivism doesn’t reject influence, it rejects determinism. It rejects the claims that it is impossible to rise from the ghetto and that you will become a violent criminal. It does not concede, for instance, that poverty causes crime. It recognizes the fact that individuals are influenced by their environment, but offers them little quarter if they commit violent or immoral acts. Despite their environment, the violent criminal still knows what he’s doing is wrong and is always capable of choosing otherwise, no matter how difficult it may seem or how desperate he is.

 

Reason

Reason is the non-contradictory identification of reality. It cannot be used to “justify any kind of horror.” Reason identifies that coercive physical force is its antithesis. Therefore any decision resulting in the initiation of physical force is not one based on reason.

 

There is a distinction between rationalizing and reason. Rationalizing is the process of stringing together false syllogisms in a way that appears logical, without reference to reality. While Nazi Germany had some brilliant scientists and industrialists, their politicians didn’t determine their infamous policies through reason – they rationalized them.

 

There’s also a distinction between pragmatism and rationality. It’s not accurate to say the Nazis were “coldly rational.” They were coldly pragmatic. They knew what they wanted to get done and they went about it very efficiently. Pragmatism rejects principles to achieve a goal (i.e. “the ends justify the means.”) Rationality is principled.

 

Altruism

Altruism does not merely mean helping others. Altruism means sacrificing a more important value for a lesser one. It’s very possible to help others without sacrificing. Giving to a charity that’s important to you, if you can afford it, is not altruism. Giving to a charity, out of obligation, even if you can’t afford it, is altruism. An act that genuinely betters your spirit is not altruism. You’re receiving a value - and a better value if you’re bettering your spirit. An act that offers you nothing would be altruism.

 

For example, my spending time replying to your essay is not altruism. It’s possible I may be fostering another mind for the cause of freedom, even if it’s not you. This benefits me. Regardless, revisiting the basics is still a good mental exercise and worth spending an hour of my time on. It’s valuable – not a sacrifice.

 

Capitalism and War

Ayn Rand defined capitalism differently to its common usage today. She defined it as a social system of rights, including property rights, where all property is privately owned. The role of government would be diminished to protecting those rights, which can only really be breached by the initiation of force. A capitalist government would not have the capacity to declare wars arbitrarily and, unlike the governments of today, it would itself be bound by the principle not to initiate force.

 

Force is not the sole means of acquiring wealth. I work for a multinational software corporation that did not and could not have existed 10 years ago. Was the wealth created by this company taken by force? No. Investors and entrepreneurs built on information and resources they was traded voluntarily and created the millions of dollars and hundreds of jobs this company represents. They used the principles of free-market capitalism (trade, reason, productivity, self-interest, the profit motive) even if our society is not a truly capitalistic one. No Indians were harmed in the making of this company.

 

As mentioned, there has never been a truly capitalist society. Imperialism is not capitalism.

 

Fascism is the antithesis of capitalism and a variant of communitarianism. Fascism, properly defined, is a social system where property rights are nominally maintained, but their use remains subject to the state. The Nazis (who were primarily nationalists and socialists) adopted most aspects of fascism and then the Nazi characteristics of expansionism, racialism and genocide became associated with fascism.

 

The ideas of the state over the individual; the nationalization of property; the initiation of force through war and genocide; the collectivism of racism; could not be more opposed to Objectivism. They have more in common with any variant of communitarianism you could name. People often wonder where the Ayn Rand/fascist connection came from. I believe it’s an equivocation on her concept of the ideal man with the Nazi “superman.” Ayn Rand often used Nazi Germany as an example of the ideas she was diametrically opposed to.

 

I hope this has helped.

 

Yours in self-interested benevolence,

Glenn



Post 14

Thursday, August 19, 2004 - 4:58pmSanction this postReply
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Thank you very much Glenn. That really cleared a lot of things up for me. And i'm not being sarcastic. I'm just not a very good writer.

Post 15

Thursday, August 19, 2004 - 5:41pmSanction this postReply
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quote  Man in his natural element, ask any anthropologist, is communitarian in nature.
True enough, and that's just about the worst possible indictment of communitarianism.


Post 16

Friday, August 20, 2004 - 11:51amSanction this postReply
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" I’m a big fan of the Star Wars movies. The Jedi often get a bad rap from Objectivists for “trusting their feelings.” But in the Star Wars universe, the Force is a metaphysical reality and a Jedi’s feelings are “sense organs” for identifying and putting to use that resource."

i noticed, in episode 2, that the bad guys consisted of: the banking conglomerate, the trade federation, and the techno guild.

also, the heroine was opposed to having an army to protect the republic..

i got a passifist, anti-capitalism message from that movie.

Post 17

Friday, August 20, 2004 - 12:15pmSanction this postReply
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The prequals were absolutely terrible in commparison with the originals.

Post 18

Friday, August 20, 2004 - 4:17pmSanction this postReply
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Sure, Eli. But there's that suspension of disbelief again. In the Star Wars universe, you have to imagine, just pretend (and I know this is a stretch) that there's the possibility (and I know this is difficult) that banking and trade cartels could be corrupt.

In the Star Wars saga, the army you refer to eventually becomes the military of the Empire. You could just as easily say that she was opposed to a universal, "UN-type" force. More on Star Wars here.


Post 19

Friday, August 20, 2004 - 4:34pmSanction this postReply
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oy!

he made a special point of having the bad guys be bankers, technologists, and traders.

he made no effort to show that they were corrupt (well, maybe with the traders in episode 1), but assumed that the audience would accept them as evil by their occupations.

for all i know, the separatists could be like the american revolutionaries, trying to get out from under the tyrannical thumb of the republic (and maybe being tricked by count douku).

the good guys in the movie are all government employees, who don't seek any kind of material gains, and who serve and perform their duties.

anikin and amidala do, at the end, ignore their duty and get married, but that'll probably be lucas' reason for anikin turning evil.

hell, anikin even said that he'd get in trouble if they saw him using his powers for fun (with the fruit, when he was having breakfast).

but the fight scenes sure are cool...

ties in with my newest thread...

: )
eli

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