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Post 20

Monday, December 13, 2004 - 10:07pmSanction this postReply
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Hi Jeanine:

Your questions may not be intended for me, but I like them.

“So, a gay or lesbian living in a state where same-sex relations are illegal should refrain from having sex or leave their home?”

No. They should try not to get caught. I’m no lawyer, but what would you recommend to them?

“If the state bans marijuana, tobacco, or alcohol, it's moral to uproot your life or stop using rather than deal on the black market?”

Nothing immoral about uprooting one’s life. Ditto for discontinuance of use. Dealing on the black market is fine with me. Ditto if the state bans ibuprofen.

“Dodging the draft- avoiding slavery- by means other than leaving the country is immoral?”

I wouldn’t say that.

“A woman in a nation which bans abortion should leave the country or bear an unwanted child?

Some women want to become pregnant, but I know what you meant. She should try like hell not to become pregnant, and leave the country for an abortion if she does. I would let her back in, but if the law forbade it, then she should try really, really, really hard not to become pregnant. If she does, then she would have to choose between leaving and bearing an unwanted child. As you have set them, these are easy questions.

“If the state bans one's religious practice- or lack of it- one should convert or leave the country?”

That’s a gargantuan hypothetical. But, yes—one should convert or leave the country. Read your question again. This is easy.

“This is a morality of self-interest?”
My take is we have to fight for the right culture. In the meantime, we’re stuck with law and order as we find it, and it does no one any good to complain about it.

Jon


Post 21

Tuesday, December 14, 2004 - 10:01amSanction this postReply
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Jeanine, I think all of these* are good examples of areas where the government is being immoral, and therefore a citizen has every right to avoid or subvert any such immoral laws.  I don't think all of the posters here understand Objectivist Ethics - which is Ok, but just don't assume they are speaking from that standpoint. 

A "draft dodger" is not a criminal, because the draft itself is criminal.  The other points are different, the third being the worst since it is a willful betrayal of others.  Desertion may or may not be, but understand that not every person can handle combat, so while punishment for desertion under fire and the like needs to be dealt out as a matter of discipline, death is too harsh for something like that.  I think the military does its best to weed out people who won't be able to handle it, but no one truly knows until they experience it.  Death would only be reasonable for some active betrayal, such as going to the enemy and pointing out the positions of our troops, or something like that.

Finally, abortion is a difficult issue.  I know it is supported by Objectivism, but I would view it like drug use - bad, but not something the government should regulate.  The reason it is not 100% the same is because at some (difficult to define) point there are two people, not one, involved.  And while a fetus is not a person, it gets closer and closer to being one as time goes on.  Also, there is the question of personal responsibility - it is an option as to when you have sex, with whom, how often, and what kind if any precautions are taken.  (as many do, rape is different being involuntary).  But I digress... this belongs in another topic.

*So, a gay or lesbian living in a state where same-sex relations are illegal should refrain from having sex or leave their home?  If the state bans marijuana, tobacco, or alcohol, it's moral to uproot your life or stop using rather than deal on the black market?  Dodging the draft- avoiding slavery- by means other than leaving the country is immoral?  A woman in a nation which bans abortion should leave the country or bear an unwanted child?  If the state bans one's religious practice- or lack of it- one should convert or leave the country?

This is a morality of self-interest?

Jeanine Ring    )(*)(
 


Post 22

Tuesday, December 14, 2004 - 5:32amSanction this postReply
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I couldn't have put it better than Jon.

The laws are there wether we like them or not. We agree to them if we remain in that society.

If you don't like a law should you leave or break them? Well its a matter of degrees. The one I always think about and was posed to me in high school when I felt high and mighty on morality. Here is how it went:

"You drive. There is a speed limit posted. It is a law that you can not exceed the speed limit. Do you speed?" my friend asked.

"Yes." I replied.

"Why?" he returned.

"Because I'm a skilled driver. I can get where I want to go faster. If I get caught I pay a fine. It is worth it to me and I will take the risk."

This is not something that would make me leave the country because I don't believe in it. There may be laws passed in the future which would make it worthwhile to leave. It hasn't happened yet. I still get enormous benefits from living here and not getting caught breaking the laws. ;)

Regards,

Jeremy Nelson

Post 23

Tuesday, December 14, 2004 - 10:28amSanction this postReply
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Kurt said "I don't think all of the posters here understand Objectivist Ethics - which is Ok, but just don't assume they are speaking from that standpoint."

A minor dig but we can let that pass.

The comments I made (as well as Jon) are based on self-interest. Each of the points was in regard to an agreement with other members of this country. If you remain in this country you are bound by certain rules.

You may at any time leave this country. That may be in your self-interest. You may agree to defend this country. That may be in your self-interest. You may decide to try to get around the laws. That may be in your self-interest.

With each decision you make however there are consequences for your actions. I agree that no one is required to give in and give up their lives at any point (even if found guilty of breaking the laws). However, you must also be aware that those are the rules. If you get caught you can be punished.

If you don't like the rules then it may be in your best self-interest to leave.

Regards,

Jeremy

Post 24

Tuesday, December 14, 2004 - 11:16amSanction this postReply
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"If you don't like the rules then it may be in your best self-interest to leave."

Perhaps. Perhaps not. Depends on the context, and who is saying it, and why.

I will give a real life situation to chew on. In Philadelphia, (and possibly other cities) we have a phenomenon called "white flight." Welfare, a corrupt government, mafia problems, drugs, etc. have driven many white people out to the suburbs. They didn't like it, and instead of fighting, they left. A large part of it is racial, unfortunately.
The suburbs are pretty far out, and many inner city black people rely on public transportation. At one time, places like the King of Prussia mall were isolated, but when the buses began to go there, jobs opportunities opened up for them. Unfortunately, they brought the problems of the city with them, including violence.

So, do these white people who moved once move again, or do they take a stand?

(P.C. disclaimer: No, I am not a racist, I believe that that "plight" of the African American community is cultural and philosophical.)

Another example I like is a little out there, but not too far. Ecoterrorists would have us believe that man is a cancer with no place on this earth. Should they ever get their way on a large scale, as depicted by Rand in THE ANTI-INDUSTRIAL REVOLUTION, we'd be subsisting. Would you tell a rebel against this tyranny to leave? I had an idea for a story where mankind was forced off the planet because of this, where they did not fight back, instead colonized Mars, (It was an interstellar ATLAS SHRUGGED.) JOhn Galt did leave, but only because he was outnumbered, and needed a sanctuary. He did not give up on his home, instead he fought to reclaim it, even if from a distance.

Folks, we can't run forever, eventually we would be forced off the damn planet.

DON"T LET IT GO!

Post 25

Tuesday, December 14, 2004 - 11:31amSanction this postReply
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I have no major point of disagreement with Kurt, except this:

“A "draft dodger" is not a criminal, because the draft itself is criminal.”

It should read:
A draft dodger is not immoral, because the draft itself is immoral.

The draft itself is not criminal. If it comes to be, it will be quite lawful and its dodgers will be criminals.

In a standup Chris Rock once said (I’ll have to paraphrase):
‘Gays in the military. I say if they want to fight, let ‘em fight. ‘Cause I ain’t fightin’. I don’t care if a Russian tank is rolling down the street in New York, I ain’t shootin’ nobody.’

My interpretation of Objectivist Ethics would allow him that choice (despite its suicidal nature), allow him to go to Canada, and allow us to never let him back.

Jon


Post 26

Tuesday, December 14, 2004 - 11:39amSanction this postReply
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I like these questions. Thought experiments can be fun, interesting and educational.

It would probably be best to break both of these down into the core question. Each situation is different and may require a different answer but usually when something is brought to the core question the rest will follow.

If I read you correctly you are asking: When do we stop running away from bad laws and bad people?

My simple answer is never. You should always avoid conflict with someone who is illogical. They usually have no regard for your life and will take it and all you possess if they can get away with it.

That doesn't mean you can't fight. Your mind is closed to everyone except yourself. You can essentially hide there and not let anyone know you are an enemy to their ideals. If you can safely get away with breaking the bad laws then do so. Otherwise wait for your opportunity.

Sun Tzu in the art of war said: If you are weak appear strong, if you are strong appear weak. In essence subterfuge and slight of hand can turn the tide of war.

Why face these irrational people head on when they outnumber you? It isn't in your self-interest to do so.

Do what you can, avoid situations where you will surely lose and live like ya just don't care.

Regards,

Jeremy

Post 27

Tuesday, December 14, 2004 - 6:58pmSanction this postReply
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The outsider that is not part of our society is not protected by us in any way. So they receive no benefits from it. We are not obligated in any way to the outsider. If the outsider is believed to have caused or plans to cause damage to us then we may detain them for as long as necessary to determine the truth. ... Once guilt or innocence is determined then we can punish them or let them go.
First:  We need to differentiate the discussion of positive philosophy ("should") from normative observations ("is").  Should we shoot deserters?  It is a fact of life that historically the first commissioned officer who finds a deserter can shoot him on the spot. Soldiering is a known role.  If you decide by reason that this is not a moral action, then you should not volunteer to be a solder.  If you are a soldier -- especially an officer -- and you suddenly decide that you cannot carry out the requirements of the job, then you need to leave the context.  That begs the first question.
 
Normatively speaking, it is a principle of U.S. law that "the Constitution follows the flag."  Wherever our troops are, there the Bill of Rights must go. 
 
More to the point, I question this fallacy of the unnamed collective.  Who is "we" and "us" that are supposedly involved in this?  My view of 9/11 is that those were suicide missions.  The perpetrators are dead. It ends there.
 
In this context, I ask: Given that "we" find a person whom "we" have detained to be innocent, how do we compensate them for the internment?
 
Also, I must point out that it is also a principle of U.S. law that everyone living here has all the rights to which they are entitled.  Citizens can vote.  You must be born here to be President, and so on.  Our armed forces have always included non-citizens.  Immigrants have proved their desire to become citizens by serving in the army.  Some of them died in service to America without obtaining citizenship.  Non-citizens pay taxes.  The point is that this "we - they" distinction is a false dichotomy.


Post 28

Tuesday, December 14, 2004 - 8:44pmSanction this postReply
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Jon is correct - immoral is a better description than criminal.  However, I always felt that while not everything immoral is criminal, everything criminal should be immoral. 

Michael with more post-modernist thinking throwing doubt on the facts of reality "The point is that this "we - they" distinction is a false dichotomy".  This is another ridiculous argument.  There are various status levels granted to non-citizens and they may include green card resident status, a status as a member of the military and subject to their laws, this is not the same as non-citizen enemy combatants or complete non-citizens and/or illegals here in the country.  This has been well established throughout the various wars we have fought.  To say that "the 9/11 terrorists died so it ends there" is also not even worth talking about. 

As to the "unnamed collective" I will name it.  The United States and its Citizens, in whose name the armed forces act.  It is a smaller group writ large - if a criminal attacks my family, we can protect ourselves.  If a gang attacks, me and my neighbors can band together for defense, and so on from the city to the modern nation.

Joe - I live near Philadelphia and understand what you mean.  The city is a corrupt cesspool.  I refuse to sanction it by working there (and paying their blood money tax), and while I do appreciate some of the cultural benefits of a city and wish it could be revitalized, it will never get better as long as they continue to operate as they do.  For example, look at Septa again, why not let anyone run a bus?  Any company, anywhere, any time?  It will be cheaper and won't require people to steal tax money to make it work.  Never even suggested, just give more money to Septa, ever since I have lived here the same story over and over.


Post 29

Tuesday, December 14, 2004 - 9:26pmSanction this postReply
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Kurt, I am getting out of this city and moving back to Seattle as soon as possible. The tax IS outrageous, Septa is threatening to raise the fare to 3 dollars while cutting ALL weekend service, and the city is overrun with violence, not to mention socialists. Not to mention socialists, who are protesting the energy companies decision to shut off heat to people who haven't paid their bill for months (the original proposition, to raise the bill on those who have been paying their bills, did not go over too well...)

I grew up here and in Jersey, but I can't change this city, and I love Seattle. So all I can say to this city is, "Brother, you asked for it!"

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Post 30

Wednesday, December 15, 2004 - 9:37pmSanction this postReply
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No. They should try not to get caught. I’m no lawyer, but what would you recommend to them?
Refuse to accept that one must hide one's life and live passion in lies where others, more conventional, walk passionless under open sky.  If one can, do as those at Stonewall did and refuse to respect the authority of uniformed thugs carrying out the will of the majority.  If one can, confront the society in pride of one's worth and refuse to accept its evaluation of one's life as evil.  If one cannot, turn one's back on a society that deserves no respect and live in other worlds where integrity is possible.  If none of these are possible, then run, keep low, or die, but never forget or forgive the nature of the world whose everyday society collaborates with evil and do nothing to support or maintain a world which does not deserve one's sanction.

This is what gays and lesbians have functionally done throughout history.
Some women want to become pregnant, but I know what you meant. She should try like hell not to become pregnant, and leave the country for an abortion if she does. I would let her back in, but if the law forbade it, then she should try really, really, really hard not to become pregnant. If she does, then she would have to choose between leaving and bearing an unwanted child. As you have set them, these are easy questions.
Or one could support an underground abortion service- as feminists did in the years before Roe vs. Wade, on the principle that sexual expression in not an accidental and dispensable pleasure but a core part of out human existence, for women as well as men, and that one's life precedes the formation of governments and that government's right and respect dissolves when those rights are abridged.

A person who considers their passion part of their honour does not adjust that passion in prudence to conditions that most men, who make societies than kill passion for security, have created.  They keep the fire of their passion alive, and slash, bleed, and burn anything and anyone who dares get in their way to keep it alive.  I believe that if the conditions of one's society demands servitude or flight, one does not respect society's right to force that choice and instead breaks that society which has ended its right to expect social peace.  By any means necessary.

Some subcultures have been performing their own abortions- without apology- for thousands of years.
That’s a gargantuan hypothetical. But, yes—one should convert or leave the country. Read your question again. This is easy.
'Tis no hypothetical, certainly no gargantuan one.  Religions have been banned by states throughout history, and the practice of some religions is banned today in this country.  My own specific religious tradition is functionally, though not technically, illegal to practice in this country (for reasons prudential, principled, and spiritual which I should and will not elaborate this here).  Why should I leave the country rather than simply ignore or defy its laws?
My take is we have to fight for the right culture. In the meantime, we’re stuck with law and order as we find it, and it does no one any good to complain about it.
I see no reason- other than prudence- to respect law and order unless that law and order is prefaced upon individual rights.  Since our law and order often is not so prefaced, in many contexts our law and order must be avoided, subverted, opposed, undermined, or destroyed- just as any unjust laws everywhere and anywhere should never be accepted.

It does immense good to complain about it.  Speech, protest, and passion are our greatest weapons against injustice.


Post 31

Wednesday, December 15, 2004 - 11:46pmSanction this postReply
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Thanks, Jeanine.

On the outlawing of one’s sexuality you wrote:
“If one can, confront the society in pride of one's worth and refuse to accept its evaluation of one's life as evil.”

And also try not to get caught and tossed in jail, right? Nothing in your response goes against what I recommended.

On abortion you wrote:
“Or one could support an underground abortion service- as feminists did in the years before Roe vs. Wade ,”

You are right.

On the gargantuan hypothetical of seeing one’s religion, or lack of it outlawed, you wrote:

“Tis no hypothetical, certainly no gargantuan one. Religions have been banned by states throughout history, and the practice of some religions is banned today in this country.”

It is gargantuan because I don’t see any religion, or atheism, being close to being outlawed anytime soon. I was surprised that you say some already are. Which ones? You say yours has—have you been arrested? My point was that if my atheism is outlawed—if I’m in danger here—then of course I will convert (pretend) or leave.

On the subject of respecting law and order as we find it, you wrote:
“I see no reason- other than prudence- to respect law and order.”

Prudence was my main concern.

On the good it does to complain you are absolutely correct.


By the way, many an ancestress of mine came to this continent about 250 years ago and I am about 99% French. I wouldn’t let anyone else do it, but how about if you call me:

Msr. Letendre?


Post 32

Thursday, December 16, 2004 - 12:05amSanction this postReply
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Msr. Letendre-

I would be glad to address you as such, and please, I meant no rudeness by conspicuous exception if I have been unsteady to you in my peculiar habits of address.  'Twas intended as no slight; in part 'tis simply the somewhat distant nature I prefer to assume discussing the current kind of topic, but mainly a personal matter: I had a recent experience which shook me up rather badly in my sense of courtesanship, so I've felt uncertain keeping up addresses which to me are part of that.

But I appreciate someone who appreciates an artistry of titles, so I will certainly refer thuswise if you ask and desire.

my regards.


Post 33

Wednesday, December 15, 2004 - 10:48pmSanction this postReply
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Wow, looks like my first post incited some discussion. Let me see if I can add this up; there is one question asking “What are the rights of non-citizens and how do they differ from Americans?” And another I think is asking “Do you have to obey unjust laws?”

I covered the first earlier and ya’ll beat that horse to death so for the second question I’ll just say it depends on the law. Off the top of my head the only laws I’ve broken were underage drinking (years ago of course), speeding, and hunting out of season (technically the word is poaching but I don’t like it). Now the last is pretty serious but I like to hunt and fish when and where I want and I’ll be damned if anyone tells me what to do. I had a stack of fines and I’ve paid them but I didn’t like it. I also still don’t see a problem with me doing it and I will probably do it again in the future. As for more serious offences like drugs, I see them as being immoral and I would never go near them or anyone who uses them. However people should be able to use them if they want. If I were writing the law however, I’d have even stricter penalties for anyone doing something illegal while on drugs because they would have no excuse for not knowing the effects and preventing their actions. Rob a drug store, 5 years. Rob a drug store on drugs, 10 years. If you were on drugs, there would be no such thing as manslaughter, you would graduate to murder.


Post 34

Thursday, December 16, 2004 - 12:15amSanction this postReply
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You mean Mr. Garcia, the hater of the French. Put him out of your mind.

No slight was perceived.

I do ask, and I do desire.

Yours,
Msr. Letendre


Post 35

Thursday, December 16, 2004 - 12:31amSanction this postReply
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Clarence,

Poaching is among the worst crimes. Do you understand that there would be no pheasants or quail left in my state if our fathers, grandfathers, great-grandfathers (and some great-grandmothers) hadn’t taken the opposite of your attitude? If creepy ideas about shooting whatever you want whenever you want were common, I would be out of my sport. Buy a ranch and raise your own things to shoot, but don’t rant about your right to ruin wild populations for the rest of us.

I have a thought. Write your last post, 5 yrs. Write your last post during daylight hours, life.

Jon


Post 36

Thursday, December 16, 2004 - 12:40amSanction this postReply
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Msr. Letendre-

Actually, it had nothing to do with Mr. Garcia, to whom I bear no ill for his preference in titles.  'Tis really a personal matter that's difficult to explain; Courtesanship is a strange craft to modern senses- it implies a vivid sense of imagination cross referenced with a plural sense of personality- and sometimes things kind of get a bit mixed up.  I really can't explain much better here.

my regards. 


Post 37

Thursday, December 16, 2004 - 12:49amSanction this postReply
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Jeanine,

No need to explain. I only hope you are over your recent shaking experience, (as I am already over mine, with Clarence.)

What title, Madam, shall I please you with?

Msr. Letendre


Post 38

Thursday, December 16, 2004 - 1:00amSanction this postReply
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As for more serious offences like drugs, I see them as being immoral and I would never go near them or anyone who uses them.
Msr. Hardy,

well, have it as you wish; you will then have to do without the pleasure of my company.  For I have used marijuana, still do so on infrequent occasions, and I'm currently looking forward to experimenting with a different substance in the company of a friend I admire.  And, to my best judgement, marijuana use has been enjoyable, done negligible harm, been well worth its cost, and has provided some experienced of shifted perceptions I've found intellectually and spiritually valuable.  Considering this, I have trouble imagining a rational case that marijuana use is 'immoral'- unless, perhaps, you wish to say that everyone here who drinks alcohol or coffee or smokes tobacco is also immoral, and you would never associate with them.

I would ask you to explain why you oppose drug use, but as you've clearly stated you won't go near me, it will be impossible and unnecessary for you to be both sincere and examine the matter with rational argument.  Such a shame, but that is what it accomplishes.

regards.


Post 39

Thursday, December 16, 2004 - 1:29amSanction this postReply
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Msr. Letendre-

I hope your shaking experience was not too distressful, either to you or you Msr. Hardy.  Should I advise a remedy?

As for names, I have been pleased to wear many titles; "miss" and "Ms." will likely do well enough here, but I have been graced by others to fit the circumstance.  Please understand I will gladly accept an unfamiliar designation.

my true regards.

P. S.  When you mention to your ancestresses, you wouldn't by chance refer to certain royal decrees to encourage the flourishing of his French majesty's domains in Louisiana, would you?  Forgive me; my colonial history is somewhat partial.


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