The Religious LEFT-wing of America

Y'know, I've heard plenty of sources all over the place cheering for ONE thing still for the Left Wing of America. Granted...they don't cheer about much MORE these days, but they DO give them this: they're supposedly secular, and believe in the separation of church and state, firmly. Even Dr. Hurd buys it. I think this is a SEVERE mistake on the end of the Objectivist community. I remember reading, a while back, that many in this community saw Republicans as even worse than Democrats because "Democrats are secular, and they ADMIT to being for big government- Republicans really are, but pretend not to be". My dad( who you may know, here, as eprime75) even decided to parrot the article to me- only for me to slam him back with one simple question "so are you saying Michael Moore is more trustworthy than Rush Limbaugh?", which he naturally collapsed to a babbling fool after getting hit with. Folks, I hate to break this to ya, but the Left Wing of America IS NOT SECULAR! They are JUST AS BAD as the Republicans, regarding religion- but they PRETEND to be Secular. Need proof?

Example #1: When President Bush first pushed for the faith-based charities, here's what the Democrats said: "uhhhhh...yeah...those...aren't...good...yeah, he shouldn't..um...er...do that". Then he pushes for tax cuts. Here's the response to THAT: "NO! NO! HE'S WORSE THAN HITLER! GIVING TAX CUTS TO THE RICH ARE HEATHENOUS! THE RICH DON'T DESERVE THOSE TAX CUTS! WE WILL DO EVERYTHING IN OUR POWER TO BLOCK IT!"

And it's worth mentioning that when the Pledge of Allegiance controversey happened, the only people in the senate to remain were three Democrats. My question- ONLY 3? So what's this about them being all for the separation of church and state? Oh yeah, and Clinton WAS the first to waste tax dollars to research if prayer was a good sickness cure.

Example #2( JUST happened, btw): the Ten Commandments thing is on the floor of the Supreme Court. Ted Kennedy says, about this "yeah...um...that's not right...that'll throw everything off...yeeeeeeeahhhh....". Now, regarding profit-based companies, he said "I WON'T LET THOSE CREDIT CARD COMPANIES RIP YOU OFF! THEY'RE HEATHENOUS I TELL YOU! I WANT TO PROTECT YOU! THEY'RE THE MOST PROFITABLE BUSINESS IN THIS COUNTRY, AND IT'S WRONG!"

Notice a difference in the way Democrats discuss both issues. I sure do. Now, do I think Republicans are anywhere NEAR perfect? Absolutely not- I KNOW they're bad when it comes to religion, and they're not EXCELLENT with defense or limited government EITHER, but I DO believe they believe in those things.

I don't believe Democrats stand for a DAMN THING other than Communism, in all honesty.

Post 1

Wednesday, March 2, 2005 - 11:34am

That is one whacked out post, dude. All capital letters and communism and made up quotes to prove your point. But they don't even prove your point.

The Democrats / liberals are more in favor of seperation of church and state than the Republicans are. Most Democrats are religious because most people are religious, but it is more seperate from their politics. Nothing you said proves otherwise. And they aren't pretending, since there is a real difference.

Bush proposed giving goverment money to church based charities, and Democrats opposed it - consistent.
Tax cuts - not a religious issue, so you brought it up for no reason.
Pledge of Alliagence - controversial issue, sure to cost people votes. 3 people is pretty impressive. And 3 beats 0 by 3. Consisten.
Ten Commandments - a GOP issue. Consistent.
Credit Card Coampnies - not religous, no reason to bring it up.

I do get the gist that you don't like Democrats, though.

Post 2

Wednesday, March 2, 2005 - 4:28pm

Russell's post may be a little disjointed, but he makes a good point about the faux-secular Left. Need I mention environmentalism, a religion for which those on the left make far greater sacrifices and changes in their daily lives than most of the weekly churchgoers I know? And when The Ninth Circuit court handed down its decision regarding the Pledge of Allegiance, none other than the esteemed Sen. John Kerry was on national TV that night slamming the court for "half-assed justice."

I'd say almost half of the left-wingers I know base their collectivism on religious and Christian ideas as opposed to secular ones. Good food for thought Russell.

Post 3

Wednesday, March 2, 2005 - 4:54pm

It's not faux - there is a marked difference in the way the GOP and the Dems use religion in their politics.

And saying 'Enviromentalism' is a religious is specious. It's like saying Objectivism is a religion. No, a religion is a religon. Precise thought is good and there's no need to distort a position to disagree with it. You can still not like the Democrats, but saying there is no difference in the way they use religion is absurd. The Democrats generally reject imposing religious belief on others.

Post 4

Thursday, March 3, 2005 - 9:14am

The fact is that most Americans (I think its something like 90%) are religious or "spiritual". I consider new agers, buddists and pagans to be religionists as well. They may say they they don't really believe in god, but listen to them talk about a life force. I have.

I cringed during the presidential debates when Kerry was going on about religion. Atheists are not usually in public office because they are generally seen as unelectable. Religion is strongly intertwined with politics and government. Politicians wear their religion beliefs like a badge of honor. We mention god in the pledge, its on our currency and we swear on a bible in court. Its not so much that Democrats are secular and Republicans are religious but that the whole damn country is religious. The saddest part is that I don't see this changing during my lifetime.

Post 5

Thursday, March 3, 2005 - 10:19am

http://people-press.org/commentary/display.php3?AnalysisID=103

According to this survey, it sure looks like Republicans are more religious than Democrats. Empirical evidence is nice, no? -Jordan

Post 6

Thursday, March 3, 2005 - 7:04pm

Jordan, your survey says nothing about how many voters are or are not religious nor their religious category. It merely gives the percentage of each category who voted Republican/Democrat.

Post 7

Thursday, March 3, 2005 - 8:38pm

The survey clearly shows a lot, including that people who consider themselves 'secular' are Democrat voters around 64% to 31% GOP. That's significant.

I don't understand the emotional investment in 'proving' that the Democrats mix religion and politics the same way the GOP does. There's an obvious difference, and Jordan's survey adds some factual stats to it.

I mean - the GOP is more 'religious'. The Democrats appeal more to black voters. Duh. So what? Facts is facts, and ain't no thing but a chicken wing.

Post 8

Thursday, March 3, 2005 - 11:23pm

Thank you, Mr. Bissell, my good man, for the assistance there. Folks, I know I give "disjointed" information- DO understand that this isn't my main "forum"- I come here occasionally to post ideas that I think should be said, and either no one has thought of them for some reason, or no one has the courage to say. I told ya- the "regular" here is my Dad, whom you may know better as eprime75. He's the philosophy guy of the two of us. I'm mostly talking with people on toy boards, IMing 'em, posting things on eBay, looking at po.....other important things(hehehehe), but that doesn't mean I reject his philosophy and ideas- I don't. Whilst I might be a bit more spiritual( not very, in all honesty, but I AM a tad more), I still believe in most of the objective philosophies that he does. But again- that's his thing, not mine. I just come here and post once in a blue moon. So I apologize for the disjointed points. Do I stand by 'em though? One hun'red percent.

In fact, I have heard before that "Democrats are less concerned with economics because they're more concerned with social issues". Really now? Well if they're not concerned with economics, I suggest they stop blocking tax cuts, and Social Security reform( which btw, Dr. Hurd honestly thinks won't happen- oh he of little faith). The fact that they're SO incredibly obsessed with blocking all of that- yet make virtually no effort to stop the church and state recombination- says one thing to me: Communism. They're Commies- religious commies. And as far as I'm concerned, those are the worst kind.

Post 9

Friday, March 4, 2005 - 3:31am

As Krushchev pointed out, way back in an Iowa cornfield in 1957, "communism is merely taking the precepts of the bible and putting them into practice."

Post 10

Friday, March 4, 2005 - 7:55am

Russell,

Can you explain why you stand by your position? Do you have any facts or other evidence to offer up in support? Any counteres to the arguments presented?

Post 11

Saturday, March 5, 2005 - 9:21am

In the sense that an agenda is promoted to enact policies based on an organized religion, clearly the Republican party is more "religious". Just look at issues like abortion, euthanasia, prayer in school, government subidies for religious charities, government standards of public decency, etc - on each of these issues, Republicans have based their position on some sort of Judeo-Christian precept.

Just because some Leftists approach with ideology a near religious fervor, does not make their ideas religious. And to describe the essense of the Democrats as communist is simply wrong (although, I admit it's fun to do sometimes). Most of the mainstream Left today advocate some variant of democratic socialism in the Western European sense. They basically believe that markets are a "necessary evil" because they have been emprically proven to be the best means of producing wealth, and they recognize that a notion of private property must exist as a precursor for vibrant markets. The problem is that they believe wealth must be forcibly redistributed to account for natural inequities that occur when people are permitted to trade freely. In their view, we are always only just a few 'sensible' government programs away from a perfect balance between capitalism and socialism.

(Edited by Pete on 3/05, 9:22am)

Post 12

Saturday, March 5, 2005 - 10:25am

Pete,

Good post.

I agree with most of your assessment about the mainstrem Left, although I slightly disagree where you say they think the markets are 'neccessary evil'. It's that the free market is good, but not without problems - and so is goverment. It's not something you agree with, but I really don't see hostility towards markets in the mainstream Left.

That minor point aside, my dislike of the mainstream right is that they are just as in favor of Big Goverment, if not moreso - they don't want free markets, all rhetoric notwithstanding, they want markets that favor large multinational corporations. They use words like 'freedom' and 'free markets' to get people are who are pro-free market, like small business owners, to think the GOP is their party. I used to fall for it, but I don't anymore.

Post 13

Saturday, March 5, 2005 - 9:52pm

Lee, while rather disjointed, I already stated most of my points. Now, you claim that the Democrats actually ARE secular and believe in the separation of Church and State. I'll believe THAT when they actually DO stand up for what they CLAIM to stand up for- and I don't speak of rank-and-file Democrats who just go to the polls to vote( though truthfully many of them are no less religious than most Republicans- living in the People's Republic of New Jersey, I should know that), I speak of the Democrats who are voted in and REPRESENT them. If they REALLY stood for the separation of Church and State, they would've fought Bush's faith-based charities as hard as they fought the tax cuts- they didn't. They would've pushed even harder to keep Same Sex marriages and Stem Cell research legal- if they ARE trying, they're apparently not doing a good enough job cause I would've heard more about it...all's I hear is how they're against war. And they definitely wouldn't have spent tax payer dollars to find out if prayer is actually a worthy cure.

I'd love to believe that your argument about the Republicans being socialistic is true, but being a worshipper of the Great Communicator, and overly impressed with the effort Bush has made so far, that makes it difficult for me to. Neither was perfect, but they're pushing and making gradual process for smaller government. After all, I believe it was REPUBLICANS who pushed for Welfare Reform, REPUBLICANS who balanced the budget, and it was GINGRICH who's name was ALSO on the Tax Cut of 1996.

Post 14

Saturday, March 5, 2005 - 11:04pm

Russell, what do you think of the following quote, taken from Bush's recent State of the Union Address.

Post 15

Tuesday, March 15, 2005 - 12:05pm

I read the post, but I really didn't need to- I heard him say it in the State of the Union address. Once again, I DIDN'T say Republicans were PERFECT on economics. Far from it, in fact. I still think they're BETTER THAN DEMOCRATS, though. Remember, Democrats and Republicans both SADLY base their beliefs on Altruism, and you KNOW how dangerous that is. However, if Democrats honestly DID believe that Capitalism was dangerous, I'd just say they're clueless beyond belief. Just like Stalin, no, they KNOW how great it is, but they don't want others to have it. I wouldn't call myself a Moderate Republican, either though- more of a Libertarian Republican. Understand that most of the ideology going on in teh 20th century was VERY bad. It's unfortunate, but that was the 20th century, and all we can do is learn from it. Getting back to my ORIGINAL point, though, so....the Democrats are overturning the Comstock Laws...WHEN now?

Again, yes, my post was disjointed. I know- that's just how I talk, overall. I have a lot to say, but don't know quite how to put it into words. So there ya go :)

Post 16

Sunday, March 27, 2005 - 3:37pm