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Post 40

Monday, March 21, 2005 - 11:52amSanction this postReply
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"Years and years of medical examinations, testimony not just from her husband but others about Terri's expressed views about such situations and countless court proceedings which adjudicated all these matters have concluded the same things: Terri Schiavo is in a persistent vegetative state; her "responses" are generated solely by her central nervous system, not her conscious awareness; her expressed wish under such circumstances was to be allowed to die rather than be maintained in such a subhuman state."

I don't think this is as cut-and-dried as is being made out. The parents claim that Terri has not been getting the rehabilitative treatment she could have been getting and which could have improved her condition, that she has been responsive to them and is not in a persistent vegetative state, that relevant testimony is being dismissed without even being considered, etc. See the http://www.terrisfight.org  Terri's Fight web site. See also Robert Johansen's http://www.nationalreview.com/comment/johansen200503160848.asp piece at NRO:
 
"Many people believe that Terri Schiavo has had "the best of care," and that everything has been tried by way of rehabilitation. This belief is false. In fact, Terri has had no attempts at therapy or rehabilitation since 1992, and very little had been done up to that point. Terri has not even had the physical therapy most doctors would regard as normative for someone in her condition. The result is that Terri suffers from severe muscle contractures, which have caused her body to become contorted. Physical therapy could remedy this, but husband Michael has refused to provide it."
 


Post 41

Monday, March 21, 2005 - 12:04pmSanction this postReply
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Robert has it right on the money, especially on the the epistomological issue at stake. This is the first time Bush has ever cut short a Crawford vacation, for any reason.  That's priorities for ya. Also, here's an article on the Texas Futile Care Law - http://www.markarkleiman.com/archives/_/2005/03/schiavo_hudson_and_nikolouzos.php - which shows the cynical grandstanding behind this.

(Edited by Lee Stranahan on 3/21, 12:09pm)


Post 42

Monday, March 21, 2005 - 12:17pmSanction this postReply
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Robert, I think you have captured the matter quite succinctly here.

Incidentally, many of the suggestions of domestic violence, et. al. are coming from church and pro-life organizations, so one should read them with a grain of salt.  In addition, the little clips circulating around the news are comprised of two instances over a fifteen year period -- during most of which Terry Schiavo has not resembled in any way a conscious human being.

As this case has appeared in front of more than 10 judges at this point, the matter has already been tried to its limits.  Since the Supreme Court refused to hear it (for this very reason) that should have been enough.

That our President, and the United States Congress, are willing to thumb their noses at the Constitution for one isolated case sets a disgusting precedent.  According to one congressman's estimate, more than $5 million was wasted on this process.

I also noted, while watching the Congressional debate last night, that the Democrats tended to be the more noble of the bunch, promoting the rule of law and admonishing the legislative branch for not minding its own business.  The Republicans, however, tended to rely on emotional and religious appeals.  It made me sick. 


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Post 43

Monday, March 21, 2005 - 12:58pmSanction this postReply
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As to the facts of this case, I won't presume to know more than the umpteen courts who have probed, weighed and then consistently adjudicated this sad case on behalf of Michael Schiavo, Terri's husband.

For a summary of the factual, legal and medical matters, the Florida Supreme Court summarized them here.

As for the issue of "persistent vegetative states," and the impressive claims of Terri's "responsiveness," a few facts might help put things in perspective.

If this posting provokes further indignation, please take up your protests with all the doctors and judges who came to these conclusions.


Post 44

Monday, March 21, 2005 - 1:06pmSanction this postReply
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Jennifer,
In hearing clips from the congressional debate I got the same impression.  The Democrats basically said "We have no place in this discussion."  Amazing.

Jason


Post 45

Monday, March 21, 2005 - 1:08pmSanction this postReply
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Jennifer, what is particularly hypocritical about the behavior of conservatives in all this is that they have flushed federalism and states' rights -- among their "timeless" principles -- right down the crapper.

Will any lurking conservatives please find me the part of the U. S. Constitution that suggests a federal role in adjudicating state civil law. If you say, "the 14th amendment" -- well, conservatives, that is the very law you claimed had been "stretched beyond recognition" in federal voting rights and discrimination cases.

Clearly, to liberals AND conservatives, these battles are mere pragmatic struggles in a quest to arbitrarily wield power. And they're willing to cite -- or to jettison -- any law (even the Constitution) in service of that objective.


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Post 46

Monday, March 21, 2005 - 1:18pmSanction this postReply
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Robert,

Finally we disagree on something!

You wrote:
"As to the facts of this case, I won't presume to know more than the umpteen courts who have probed, weighed and then consistently adjudicated this sad case on behalf of Michael Schiavo, Terri's husband."

They are most certainly a group of honored and serious individuals. I will not presume to know more than they do either. But I still have a question - Would you put, say, your own daughter's death in their hands without trying everything possible to keep her alive - even with all the respect they merit?

The hardest question I find is What if they are wrong? (Because of, say, a breakthrough in medical science - as I mentioned, something like stem cell research where new cells can be grown - that would allow some kind of recovery.) Can they state, on the irreversibility of death, that nothing at all will ever be able to be done?

Or is this just a most likely probability?

Personally, I will not kill a nonaggressive person (or what was once an aware person) on a probability.

Michael


Post 47

Monday, March 21, 2005 - 1:43pmSanction this postReply
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(Because of, say, a breakthrough in medical science - as I mentioned, something like stem cell research where new cells can be grown - that would allow some kind of recovery.)
Well, given our President's stance on that particular issue, such a scenario is highly unlikely.


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Post 48

Monday, March 21, 2005 - 1:47pmSanction this postReply
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MSK says: The hardest question I find is What if they are wrong? (Because of, say, a breakthrough in medical science - as I mentioned, something like stem cell research where new cells can be grown - that would allow some kind of recovery.) Can they state, on the irreversibility of death, that nothing at all will ever be able to be done?

You cannot rationally use that as the standard, if you do then what you are basically saying is that the decisions made in accordance with the rule of law are all relative. The law cannot exist on the basis of the 1 in a billion 'what if', it must have an objective standard which is universally applied. In this case there is a clearly defined objective standard, there exist decades worth of precedent, and the appeal process has gone through the proper steps. What has occurred now is that a false exception has been made and the law has been usurped in order to serve a political agenda.
 
The issue is not whether the State can prove that the condition is not irreversible. The issue is that according to Florida law Terry Schaivo's medical condition has reached a point that allows for her husband (in the absence of a living will) to speak on her behalf on the issue of life support. All of the other issues that have been raised subsequent to this should have no bearing, since they are either not covered under the law, or in the case of the accusations now being made about her husband - they do not meet the legal standard by which the Police can act on them, therefore the husbands innocence must be presumed, and his legal rights as the guardian of his wife maintained.

There is nothing extraordinary about the Terri Schiavo case; it is commonplace. What *has* made this case extraordinary has been the blatant politicalization and abuse of Federal power. When arbitrary assertions gain the weight of objective proof and empirical evidence - then the 'law' loses all meaning.


George  

(Edited by George W. Cordero on 3/21, 2:04pm)


Post 49

Monday, March 21, 2005 - 2:17pmSanction this postReply
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I'm feeling increasingly conflicted on this issue.

All of you on both sides make many good, strong points, and in principle I agree with the stance being taken by George, Jennifer, Robert et al (as ought to be clear from my initial post on this thread). The legal process has played out in court after court, always siding with Mr Schiavo; and it is terrible that the mystic wing of the Republican Party in Gongress are basically trashing that process. And yet it is clear that medical opinion is divided and that Mrs Schiavo's family are deeply unhappy with the situation. I find it hard to see why they would fight this long unless they genuinely believed Mrs Schiavo would not want to be left to die. Their website lists their various objections and grievances - and on their face these are troubling to say the least; but other sources suggest that these objections have in fact all been dealt with in court. I just hope that the federal judge that ends up deciding this has a far clearer idea of what the hell's going on than I do.

The one thing I do know for sure is that a human life is in question here, and we ought to be as certain as possible that this is what she would have wanted before what is left of that life is allowed to fade out.

MH

Edited to add - George is absolutely spot on about Mr Schiavo. I don't know whether the allegations against him have been investigated but they certainly have not been proven, and so ought not in and of themselves to affect his legal rights. However, in general I question the wisdom of a law that places anyone (husband or not) in such a position over a PVS sufferer in the absence of any written declaration from the latter.

(Edited by Matthew Humphreys on 3/21, 2:24pm)


Post 50

Monday, March 21, 2005 - 2:34pmSanction this postReply
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MH: "The legal process has played out in court after court,..."

Therefore, barring and legal proof that there has been some sort of conspiracy, the issue *should* be considered settled.

MH: And yet it is clear that medical opinion is divided and that Mrs Schiavo's family are deeply unhappy with the situation.

These medical opinions are not equivalent. On the one side you have 15 years worth of opinions form innumerable doctors that have no personal agenda to advance. The appeal side has the overwhelming medical minority opinion - and a clear connection to a group with an agenda.

MH: I find it hard to see why they would fight this long unless they genuinely believed Mrs Schiavo would not want to be left to die.

Really? I don't, not at all. I can fully understand why a mother would want to hang on - even if it were contrary to the written wishes of a daughter. In fact parents often fight to maintain life support even in these cases - very common.

MH: . I just hope that the federal judge that ends up deciding this has a far clearer idea of what the hell's going on than I do.

My hope is that he decides, that he has no business deciding in the first place. In other words, that he upholds the Constitution, and declares the Congressional vote illegal.

MH: The one thing I do know for sure is that a human life is in question here, and we ought to be as certain as possible that this is what she would have wanted before what is left of that life is allowed to fade out.

This has already been taken into consideration, and the process (both legal and medical) that has led to the current decision has by any objective standard, more than met the criteria.

MH: I'm feeling increasingly conflicted on this issue.

I am somewhat surprised at that statement MH? Given the facts, the legal precednet, and the husbands legal rights - I would have been sure, that you as a lawyer, would take an unequivocal stance. Hmmmm? On the other hand, you did say this,"George is absolutely spot on about Mr Schiavo. I don't know whether the allegations against him have been investigated but they certainly have not been proven, and so ought not in and of themselves to affect his legal rights." so I am left confused?

George

(Edited by George W. Cordero on 3/21, 2:42pm)


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Post 51

Monday, March 21, 2005 - 2:48pmSanction this postReply
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A fascinating issue is involved here, quite apart from the issue of whether Terri Schiavo is to live or die. As I began reading various accounts of the case -- and starting, as I did, with no preconceived conclusion -- I noticed that the same thing kept happening to me. I'd read one article or account, pro or con Terri being allowed to die, and think that the writer was making sense, that his arguments added up, and so I agreed that she should live (or die). Then on to the next opposing article -- with the same result; the arguments made sense, they added up to a compelling case, and I agreed that she should die (or live). After this seesawing had happened several times, I began to understood what was happening.

Each article did present facts, but in each article the facts were highly selective. Thus, one writer would say that X number of doctors had said that Terri was in a persistent vegetative state -- but would not mention that Y number of doctors had denied it. Another writer would say that her husband was suspected of beating her, perhaps of causing the trauma that led to her present state -- but would not mention that several courts had cleared him of such charges. In a word, each article presented, as fact, information which was true but was only part of the truth.

What makes this phenomenon important is the psycho-epistemology of the writers. I do not think that the writers, for the most part, were lying or deliberately distorting the evidence. I think that when one is overwhelmingly convinced of a certain position, for whatever reasons, there is a tendency -- unless it is consciously and vigorously guarded against -- to NOTICE and therefore to report only the information that will support that position. One will have some sort of intellectual contact with conflicting information, but it does not fully register, it is not considered relevant or important.

I think we all do this to some extent. And I believe we will continue to do it, until and unless we are aware of it. And if it is a dangerous mistake with regard to Terri Schiavo, where we at Solo have no influence to speak of, how much more dangerous with regard to, say, political issues, where we are in a position to influence public opinion and where we have a vote.

Without getting into an issue I refuse to discuss further, because it has been discussed to death, let me say that I see this same psycho-epistemological mistake all over the controversy about the Iraq war. It took me a very long time to make up my mind about whether I approved or disapproved of the war. I followed pretty much the same pattern as I've been following about Terri; that is, I'd read one article, think that its information and reasoning made sense -- and so I was for (or against) the war. I kept seesawing until I realized the nature of the error being made by both sides. Each side focused on, noticed, considered relevant, those facts that favored its position and did not focus on, notice, or consider relevant those facts that dis-favored its position.

In both the Terri Schiavo case and in the case of the war, there ARE facts favoring both sides. Neither are cut and dried issues; both sides have valid points to make. But both sides tend to omit relevant information.

I am not -- definitely not -- suggesting that, the above being the case, one cannot arrive at certainty. One can, but it is difficult to do so until and unless one is aware of the mistake being made, probably in one's own thinking as well as in the thinking of the pundits, in the marshaling of the factual information available.

In many issues, there are not two sides worth considering. I don't have to read pro and con opinions on the validity of cold-blooded murder in order to arrive at a decision. But in many issues that crucially concern us, there ARE two sides. We can't consider them while leaving our perceptiveness at the door. Which means, in these instances, we have to notice and monitor what we do mentally with the information available to us. We have to notice whether or not we begin our consideration with a bias, and, if so, to check that bias at the door. We have to notice whether or not we are considering ALL the relevant information, or only that which favors our bias.

Yes, I'm aware that some of you might say that this is almost self-evident. We have to be objective, you might say; we all know that. But objectivity is not simple and easy; it is complex and often difficult because it requires that we be the honorable monitor of our own thought processes.

Barbara

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Post 52

Monday, March 21, 2005 - 2:49pmSanction this postReply
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George,

If we were talking about anything else but a government sanction of killing what was once a normal human being, I would most likely agree.

And doesn't anyone have the right to change their opinion? If you stated you wanted to commit suicide and changed your mind later, should you be held to your first statement - even and especially if the law says you must? As I mentioned above, Terri is thriving, albeit not in a normal human state.

She might have even stated that she did not want to be kept alive in that state when she was in another one and had no experience with what that would be like. Well now she does have that experience. Does her right to life cease because of her former view?

The "ifs" I mentioned are not to bog down the courts, but only to be considered in the specific case of inflicting death on a helpless living being who seems to like being alive (at least the shots on TV give me that impression).

btw - I don't like the growing government control, the mushy stuff on TV or any of the rest of it either.

Michael


Post 53

Monday, March 21, 2005 - 3:05pmSanction this postReply
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I agree with Michael Kelly on this one.

I am persuaded by the outside offer to take over the expense of caring for Terry Sciavo. Given that under these new circumstances the husband has no more obligations in her care, and the parents of Terri Sciavo desperately want to keep her alive I see no reason to cause her death.

How are Mr. Sciavo's rights being abrogated if he is to be released of all financial responsibility?

Post 54

Monday, March 21, 2005 - 3:06pmSanction this postReply
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Quoth Jennifer:

"Well, given our President's stance on that particular issue [stem cell research], such a scenario is highly unlikely."

I'm the last person anyone would ever describe as a fan of President Bush, but I find this particular poke very, very strange on an Objectivist forum.

President Bush's position on stem cell research is that the government will not fund the creation of fetal stem cell lines beyond those lines which have already been created at taxpayer expense. There's no restriction on the creation of new fetal stem cell lines in private sector research, nor is there any restriction on research, even government-funded research, utilizing existing lines.

Sounds to me like a reasonable move in the direction of getting government out of an area where it has no business. If there is merit in fetal stem cell research, then private firms wishing to pursue that research won't be bidding against an artificially well-funded competitor (the government) which tends to not pursue research as efficiently as the market does.

Tom Knapp

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Post 55

Monday, March 21, 2005 - 3:09pmSanction this postReply
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George, only you could possibly pick apart a post of mine and make me appear to be less sympathetic to your position than I in fact am ;-)

Levity aside, for me the most important question morally is: what would Mrs Schiavo want. That's why I have problems with the principle of legal guardianships where there's no written indication of the sufferer's wishes - it is possible (I'm not saying its the case here) for the guardian to insist on treatment or insist on the withdrawal of treatment even where this is not in fact what the sufferer would want.

As for the court processes, from what I can gather the family is basically arguing that a number of issues still haven't been taken into account. I don't have enough information right now to know whether that's true or not, the federal judge hopefully will. One thing that's become obvious to me from this thread and other stuff I've found by looking into the situation is that there is a ton of conflicting information out there, from persons who may or may not have other agendas. It's clear that all of the accounts being presented cannot be correct. Maybe there are matters that haven't been dealt with as fully as they should, maybe they have already been dealt with. In principle, Mrs Schiavo ought to be allowed to die. But if there is stuff that hasn't been considered, if this isn't what she herself would've wanted, once she's dead it can't be put right.

So, I guess my unequivocal stance as a lawyer is that I hope the latest judge will figure this entire mess out.

MH

PS I just saw Barbara's latest post about the various facts being presented. And I've felt exactly the same way. I think she's spot on - as she so often is :-)


Post 56

Monday, March 21, 2005 - 3:31pmSanction this postReply
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Thanks Thomas, somewhat belatedly, for answering my question about the possibility of divorce. It does make me wonder why Schiavo doesn't just say - I'll wash my hands of this? However, for all we know, it could come out of compassion - he may think that his wife would not have liked to live like this - and he wants to do the right thing.

That our President, and the United States Congress, are willing to thumb their noses at the Constitution for one isolated case sets a disgusting precedent.  According to one congressman's estimate, more than $5 million was wasted on this process.

Not only that, but Bush cut short his holiday!

This is quite an unprecedented level of federal meddling in the state legal process. This supreme court had the chance three times to review the courts decision, and three times it declined. I assume that the legal process in Florida had been quite robust. 

Bush said that when we are in doubt that we must err on the side of life.
He never seemed to have any doubts when issuing death penalties as Governor of Texas!!!

I definitely think that his and his parties motivation is purely political. And that is what is now so messy about the whole business!!!



Post 57

Monday, March 21, 2005 - 3:34pmSanction this postReply
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MH said: George, only you could possibly pick apart a post of mine and make me appear to be less sympathetic to your position than I in fact am ;-)

ROFL - That response alone caused me sanction your post!

George


Post 58

Monday, March 21, 2005 - 3:46pmSanction this postReply
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Quoth Thomas:

President Bush's position on stem cell research is that the government will not fund the creation of fetal stem cell lines beyond those lines which have already been created at taxpayer expense. There's no restriction on the creation of new fetal stem cell lines in private sector research, nor is there any restriction on research, even government-funded research, utilizing existing lines.

I was unaware of these details, and was under the distinct impression he was trying to make the whole process illegal given his religious beliefs.  Thank you for the correction.


Post 59

Monday, March 21, 2005 - 3:52pmSanction this postReply
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Jennifer,

He is trying to make the whole process illegal. His Government is trying to get an international ban passed by the UN!


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