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Post 20

Wednesday, April 27, 2005 - 5:19pmSanction this postReply
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What a mess. And as much as I agree with Ayn Rand on almost everything and have the utmost respect and and even reverence for her, she's the one responsible for creating it (not Peikoff, who's just carrying out her policy without being critical enough about it). To see where it started, read the first page of "The Objectivist Forum".

I think this fixation on the "integrity" of the term "Objectivism" is silly and pointless. People use words as individuals, and people interpret as individuals. Even the most well-intentioned ARI-Objectivist must necessarily interpret the philosophy when he talks about it, and sure, he could insert the proviso: "This is only my interpretation." But that's redundant, of course it's his interpretation. Everything we say that isn't a literal quote is our interpretation (and when we quote, *then* it's customary to insert provisos, not when we talk for ourselves). If I call myself "Objectivist", then obviously it's *I* who think I'm one, not Ayn Rand. Why put in tortured qualifications every time I speak, as if it puts words in Ayn Rand's mouth? It doesn't. It never did. The whole issue is pure silliness.

If David Kelly misunderstands and therefore miscommunicates the meaning of "Objectivism", well, so what? To any numbskull who mindlessly sucks it up, well it's his own damn fault. Ayn Rand was clear enough in her writings that any thoughtful individual could work it out for himself, and even supposing she wasn't, well then the term "Objectivism" couldn't be objectively defined anyway.

Rand states that if anyone uses the term "Objectivism" to refer to anything other than what she thinks it should refer to, then they're "guilty of the fraudulent presumption of trying to put thoughts into *my* brain". How on earth she got the idea that she's responsible for other people's interpretation I do not know, but she's just plain wrong. It's neither her fault nor her business whether there are people in the world who insist on being confused.


Post 21

Wednesday, April 27, 2005 - 5:28pmSanction this postReply
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Shayne, all in all, that was a very sensible post.

While my views and David Kelley's are fairly close on these issues, I am relieved that I published my response to "Fact and Value" well before Kelley published his own reply. Relieved, because it suggests that Kelley (not me) is a "numbskull" who, reading whatever I write, "mindlessly sucks it up."


Post 22

Wednesday, April 27, 2005 - 5:42pmSanction this postReply
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Robert: I intended my statement to be hypothetical, which was the purpose of the "if" in "If David Kelly ...". Not because I agree or disagree with Kelly, but because I think it's irrelevant to my point. I.e., no insult was intended.

I do have thoughts on the other particulars of "Fact and Value" vs. your and David Kelly's position, but don't have time to get into them now.

Post 23

Wednesday, April 27, 2005 - 6:05pmSanction this postReply
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Robert,

Not to be misunderstood, Rand would have disagreed with much of Fact and Value, but the statement that Kant was the most evil man in history and a belief in an ineluctable connection between ideas and actions, were hers.


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Post 24

Wednesday, April 27, 2005 - 7:38pmSanction this postReply
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Robert D,

You sure must be having a lousy day.
I would argue that you are a useful idiot for ARI
I have been engaging Tom on a number of issues and have read most all of his posts on SOLO so far. I have yet to see him become offensive with anyone or so rigid in his thinking with me that we were unable to talk through an issue to a core concept of agreement.

Example - Moral perfection meaning a perfect commitment to reason and morality, and not a perfect execution of reason and morality.

To get to that point took a lot of careful thinking and dialogue. I saw nothing whatsoever of an attempt to convert me over to ARI or anything else, except well reasoned positions and ideas.

I would say that Tom exercises humility, in the good sense of listening and trying to understand before engaging his mouth. He has even been guilty of incorporating a new outlook (as have I) to his way of thinking.

That is not a useful idiot for anything. I find your comment personally insulting, just as if it had been for me.

I want to read Robert B's essay before commenting, but you are stepping on the toes of another of those I admire here too.

Obnoxiousness is not clever, entertaining or superior. It is merely obnoxious.

Michael


Post 25

Thursday, April 28, 2005 - 7:58amSanction this postReply
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Whew,

You guys have given me a lot to think about and just a lot to do.  Though if I am nothing more than  a useful idiot for ARI, it will probably be a useless effort (LOL).

In any case, I insist, and will get the results to you as they come out of my muddled mind.

HELP!  HELP!  Please, Leonard, not those torture needles again. I'll do what you say, please don't excommunicate me. Please, mr.leonard, please, mr leonard. 

What a hoot!  And what a shame.  Thanks for the kind words, Michael.  I guess Robert D. didn't get the posts where I indicated the amount of back-and-forth I've gone through on these issues.

Tom

PS I've read Robert's essay and am not convinced.. I had refrained from discussing it at his request.  But now I will. But, like him, I will probably link to an essay I'm writing, so we can avoid rehash. In the meantime, I probably won't post very much.


Post 26

Thursday, April 28, 2005 - 8:03amSanction this postReply
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Michael you write:

Example - Moral perfection meaning a perfect commitment to reason and morality, and not a perfect execution of reason and morality.

First of all Rowland can defend himself, and I have no quarrel with you.  Second you may think the above is what you agree on, but it is not.  If you were in agreement, Rowland would have admit that  Peikoff has made moral errors.   He does not and will not.

George Walsh, George Reisman, Edith Packer, Jerry Kirkpatrick, Linda Reardan,  and David Kelley, how many heads have to roll before the fence sitters see the light.  Peikoff is a good man gone sour, the Robespierre of Objectivism.

When pressed about his tactics, Robespierre is quoted as saying, "The government of liberty is the despotism of liberty against tyranny . . . Terror is naught but prompt, severe, inflexible justice; it is therefore an emanation of virtue. It is less a particular principle than a consequence of the general principle of democracy applied to the most pressing needs of the fatherland."

That he died on the same guillotine as his victims, his jaw hanging off from a self-inflicted gunshot wound, might be the elusive proof of God.


"...and never heads enough..."

Domestic carnage, now filled the whole year

With feast-days, old men from the chimney-nook,

The maiden from the busom of her love,

The mother from the cradle of her babe,

The warrior from the field - all perished, all -

Friends, enemies, of all parties, ages, ranks,

Head after head, and never heads enough

For those that bade them fall.

 

William Wordsworth






Post 27

Thursday, April 28, 2005 - 8:17amSanction this postReply
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Michael,

Actually, there is one thing I love as well. His satire of overly optimistic foolhardiness - Candide -- is wonderful, and the musical that Bernstein, et al, made of it is even more wonderful.  (Satire is a very 'iffy' proposition with me, but this I like)

Got any other Voltaire suggestions for further reading?

Tom


Post 28

Thursday, April 28, 2005 - 9:51amSanction this postReply
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Robert D,

Yes I can. I speak for myself.  Please don't presume to read my mind re: Peikoff's morality.

You assume that the arguments are or have become self-evident.  They aren't and never were, hence the schism ON BOTH SIDES. Disagreements often lead to the parting of the ways.  Heads are not rolling here, disagreements are being voiced and actions that DO NOT INVOLVE FORCE (unlike those of Robespierre) are being taken as a result.

When my disagreements with Fred reached the point where I felt that a meaningful relationship was no longer possible, I said so and acted accordingly, but I didn't cut off his head. And even the action I took was only after long and difficult soul and mind searching. It would have to be, to warrant such an action after some 28 or so years of close friendship.

I won't cut off your head either, tho' I may stop answering your posts.  Eikes! another purge.

Tom


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Post 29

Thursday, April 28, 2005 - 10:31amSanction this postReply
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Tom,

There is a Voltaire essay I am trying to find. I read it years ago and can't remember the name.

In it, he postulated that all outrages and barbarian excesses committed by tyrants have been due to constipation. According to his theory, blood freely circulates throughout the body, carrying all kinds of things to all parts. When a person is constipated, his blood will go to the intestine, pick up old fecal matter and transport it to his brain. That's when all the trouble starts, the invasions, slaughter, torture and all the rest...

Running a google search, I came across this little gem by P. J. O'Rourke, which seemed pertinent to this little discussion:

When does an intestine quit being an intestine and start becoming an asshole?"

I will find that Voltaire essay and get back to you.

Michael


Post 30

Thursday, April 28, 2005 - 11:28amSanction this postReply
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The answer to that question is - when it is at the end of its rope......

Post 31

Thursday, April 28, 2005 - 1:01pmSanction this postReply
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Tom, my quarrel is not with you personally.  It is with Peikoff professionally.  Heads may not roll literally, but they do metaphorically. 

Unless Objectivism is designed to make one grouchy, touchy, and unhappy, he is wrong.


Post 32

Friday, April 29, 2005 - 6:23amSanction this postReply
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Robert D.

It looks to me that the only dog in this fight that's "grouchy, touchy, and unhappy" is you.

Me? I'm having a blast.

Tom Rowland


Post 33

Friday, April 29, 2005 - 6:40amSanction this postReply
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Typical

Post 34

Friday, April 29, 2005 - 7:45amSanction this postReply
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Robert D,

OK, let me ask you a question so you'll know under what conditions I'll take you seriously.

Is Peikoff wrong because he makes you (and some number of others) "grouchy, touchy and unhappy", (or alternatively, because Objectivism has become the laughing stock of some philosophy professors as yet unnamed),  or is he wrong because some metaphorical heads are rolling that you think shouldn't have rolled, or is he wrong because of some objective standard?

If the first two, forget it, I won't discuss it.  If the latter, name your standard and come out fighting. IT AIN"T SELF-EVIDENT.

Tom

PS Here's a hint at just the first thing that is troublesome (to say the least) with Robert B's Open Letter. On the first page he has a long section on "proportionality" in which he claims that Peikoff and Schwartz don't discuss it. If you look at the section beginning "But while it is true" and ending with "'put loopholes in the laws of logic", you won't find any references to Peikoff's text. That's because there aren't any available. AND because there are at least two passages in "FACT and VALUE" where Peikoff explicitly discusses the issue with respect to judging ideas and in which he recognizes degrees (proportionality). Your mission, should you choose to accept it, is to find those passages and see if you can make them self-destruct.
I'm saving my amo for the article I'm writing, which I'll post to the new site I'm putting together and will link to here.


Post 35

Friday, April 29, 2005 - 12:11pmSanction this postReply
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Sorry Tom.  No interest in your pissing contest.

Post 36

Friday, April 29, 2005 - 12:33pmSanction this postReply
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Come on, Robert D. Tom has clearly invested a large amount of time trying to explain his position. We have the incalculable benefit here of to use Kelley's favorite Mill phrase: match our position against all gainsayers.

Jim


Post 37

Friday, April 29, 2005 - 7:39pmSanction this postReply
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James,

Be serious.

If Rowland has quotes from Peikoff that counter Bidinetto's arguement let him produce them.  I read as little Peikoff as possible and certainly don't intend to do Rowland's research for him. 


Post 38

Saturday, April 30, 2005 - 5:16amSanction this postReply
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Robert D.

"typical"

Tom


Post 39

Monday, June 13, 2005 - 12:01amSanction this postReply
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Here is my first post on this board. I was trying to lay off until I read more, but there is something about the schism that always just gets me.

Almost every time I see this conversation, it seems (just my opinion of course), that people get so riled up in defending a particular person. I don't see how this is constructive in any fashion. As Objectivists (deriving from the term objective), how can one argue for or against any man unless he has directly challenged your character? In my estimation, Objectivists (or whatever term you might want to use) ought not argue against anything but ideas as long as ideas are the basis of the argument. Doing so is roughly equivalent to saying, "I don't like what he said, so he is a fuck-ass."

<raises eyebrow>

But that's just my thinking.

Joe Idoni


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