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Thursday, May 19, 2005 - 9:04amSanction this postReply
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3 questions: 1)- What is your perception of Women's Studies or Feminism?
2)-What has shaped your perception? 3)-How do you perceive women's role in society?


Post 1

Thursday, May 19, 2005 - 4:12pmSanction this postReply
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Doris wrote:
  • What is your perception of Women's Studies or Feminism?
  • What has shaped your perception?
  • How do you perceive women's role in society?
  • Just so you all know, Doris is a friend of mine who joined my local group about two years ago before we became SOLO in Florida at Merritt Island.  She is a sharp lady and our only resident artist.  This latter makes us fortunate since we are studying The Romantic Manifesto and her insights have helped technical types like myself better to understand Ayn Rand's artistic credo.

    She also dedicates herself to continuous learning.  She originally asked me these questions privately for a Women's Studies class and I encouraged her to post them here to get a broader swath of feedback.

    She needs answers by May 22, so please post responses ASAP.

    Here is my take on them:
    • What is your perception of Women's Studies or Feminism?

      Very mixed.  Generally speaking, modern feminism has become riddled with quasi-Marxist approaches of dialectical materialism.  In Marxism, class struggles mark the unifying theme of history.  For Marx, the class struggle in capitalist societies arises between the bourgeois and the proletariat, i.e., between the propertied class and the working class.  This material clash of two classes, i.e., dialectical materialism, would, according to Marx, lead to a classless communistic society that would evolve into a workers' paradise in which the state would eventually wither.

      While feminism began in the early 1800s as a legitimate social force to bring equality under the law to women, the influence of Marxism led the women's movement to adopt similar and often violent "us versus them" attitudes which assigned all men, as a class, the role of oppressor, and all women, as a class, the role of victim.  Fortunately, a few rational people have attempted to rescue feminism from the clutches of Marxism with Web sites like http://www.ifeminism.com and other individualistic sites that seek the original, worthy goals the first feminists of the nineteenth century sought.

    • What has shaped your perception?

      Many readings in Objectivist and libertarian literature as well as recent posts here at SOLO.  Read "Gender Tribalism" by Peter Schwartz in Ayn Rand's book Return of the Primitive as well as various articles here at SOLO on the subject via this link:

      http://www.google.com/custom?q=feminism&sitesearch=SoloHQ.com

    • How do you perceive women's role in society?

      In a post-industrial society that relies on brains rather than brawn, I think women have an unprecedented opportunity to outshine men never known in history.  I say this because of many studies that suggest women have a greater capacity than men to engage in multi-tasking.  Much cultural baggage remains for women to shed, though.  Notions about women as "nurturers" and bearers of "compassion" may weigh their personal identities with the dead weight of altruism and rob them of the egoistic power to soar to the stars in terms of personal achievement.  Likewise, traditional roles of men as breadwinners and protectors will hold many men from pursuing other values that may better suit them.  Our past evolutionary conditions may have preferred those traditions, but with these environments now under our control, such traditions deserve an ongoing challenge to "check our premises."


    Post 2

    Thursday, May 19, 2005 - 8:00pmSanction this postReply
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    Hello Doris. Here are my answers:

    1)- What is your perception of Women's Studies or Feminism?
    What is feminism? I don't really care, but I hope everyone has freedom to do as they will so long as they do not initiate force, and that they be free from initiation of force.

    2)-What has shaped your perception?
    Reality and my rational faculty. On woman? I think I have always just considered women as fellow human beings, just like other ones, like men. My thoughts there have never really been changed.

    3)-How do you perceive women's role in society?
    I think people live, and I would prefer they were both very productive and did not initiate force.

    Thanks, have a nice day! : )

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    Post 3

    Friday, May 20, 2005 - 7:50amSanction this postReply
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    Hi Doris,

    Nice to meet you. I just got back from beautiful Merritt Island. I obviously can't make your meeting this weekend, but I will be down there again to be with Michael. Anyway, keep an eye on Luke. He seems to be on his good behavior now, but he has shown himself to be a serial sexist in the past, so you may have to feed him to the gators if he gets out of line.   ;-)



    1)  What is your perception of Women's Studies or Feminism?

    My perception is that feminism/women's studies are, for the most part dated and collectivist.  There are still many issues that still affect women. The liberals tend to look to government for answers, which I feel, is misguided at best.  My view is that political correctness has gotten way out of hand and breeds resentment. Government certainly doesn't have all the answers and throwing money at problems doesn't fix them either. It becomes a contest of who is more of the victim. Outright discrimination based on sex, race, age, relgion etc. should not happen, but it does.  Basically, traditional feminism is out. i-feminism is in. Keep the focus on strong individualism without denying what makes us who we are.  In a way feminism per se is discriminitory, just as affirmative action is racist.


    2)  What has shaped your perception?
    Being female.... single motherhood, growing up in a single parent household, working in corporate America, experiencing discrimination firsthand, volunteering in a WIC clinic, thinking outside the box.


    3)  How do you perceive women's role in society?
    Whatever an individual woman wants to do or wishes to be should be possible. It is something very personal and is different for every woman.



    Post 4

    Friday, May 20, 2005 - 8:55amSanction this postReply
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    Doris, read my joke -- snatched elsewhere from the Internet -- at

    http://solohq.com/Articles/Setzer/Rules_for_Women_and_Rules_for_Men.shtml

    along with the "Discuss this Article" link to understand Kat's comments.  This hulabaloo even made it into the inaugural speech of SOLOC 4 via the intransigently acid wit of Lindsay Perigo.   Not to worry, you can still come to our monthly discussions even if you dislike my online sense of humor.   ;)


    Post 5

    Friday, May 20, 2005 - 11:23amSanction this postReply
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    I'll try my best to answer your questions pellucidly, but I'm afraid I've come under the undue influence of the Rules for Women and Rules for Men humor piece.

    ______________________

    1) What is your perception of Women's Studies?

    I conduct Women's Studies with my girlfriend under reasonably private circumstances. My perception is quite dark.


    2) What has shaped your perception?

    Her curves. Touch is also a perception.


    3) How do you perceive women's role in society?

    I'm striving to graduate from "Women's Studies" to "Role Studies". I've been informed I need a pirate costume for the latter. The woman's role seems to revolve around tattered clothing.

    ______________________

    The pirate suit I'm interested in procuring is not made of asbestos, so go lightly on the flames. If you can't, please forward your comments to my parrot.

    Post 6

    Friday, May 20, 2005 - 11:50amSanction this postReply
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    Dean you echo my own answers. While I have seen nothing to validate womens studies as a distinct department or course of study, I don't care that there *are* womens studies depts and courses.

    Womens role in society is a trickier one. In every area except the romantic, women are to me, indistinguishable from men.

    Post 7

    Saturday, May 21, 2005 - 12:23pmSanction this postReply
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    In every area except the romantic, women are to me, indistinguishable from men.
    ???

    No chauvinism intended.

    Post 8

    Saturday, May 21, 2005 - 12:42pmSanction this postReply
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    I guess I take a somewhat opposite view to John Newman.

  • What is your perception of Women's Studies or Feminism?
  • Because I think men and women often differ (and in much more than just romance), I think it often helps to study them separately. In this sense, women's studies is good. But the way it's practiced (at least in academia) is largely divisive -- i.e., it pins men against women -- so in this sense, women studies is bad.

  • What has shaped your perception?
  • I've known plenty of feminists, read several feminist authors, and I've been taught by several feminists, so I've had plenty of reason to think about this stuff.

  • How do you perceive women's role in society?
  • I don't understand the question. Sounds like a question from Plato's Republic, where everybody must have a societal function.

    Jordan


    Post 9

    Saturday, May 21, 2005 - 2:21pmSanction this postReply
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    Kathy wrote:
    Outright discrimination based on sex, race, age, relgion etc. should not happen, but it does.
    Does that mean that you would not discriminate in your daughter's romantic relationship with a 45 year old woman/man? I think people should be free to discriminate as they please, I do not think it is outright Wrong. In most cases I would prefer that people didn't discriminate. I think that discriminating on religion and age can be rational. Only when it comes to matters of crime and justice do I think it would be Wrong to discriminate on such things. Crime and justice should only be based on who did it and what the damages were.

    Jordan wrote:
    Sounds like a question from Plato's Republic, where everybody must have a societal function.
    Haha, I was thinking the same thing. The question didn't ask me what I would prefer or even thought women should do, instead it asked how I perceived their unspecified role.
    (Edited by Dean Michael Gores
    on 5/21, 2:22pm)


    Post 10

    Saturday, May 21, 2005 - 4:27pmSanction this postReply
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    1)- What is your perception of Women's Studies or Feminism?

    Women's Studies has become a religion. It is the worship of a non-existent Platonic idea Womanhood that feminists faithfully imagine as a non-existent Platonic idea Manhood.


    2)-What has shaped your perception?

    The followers I see on TV and who I have met in real life.

    3)-How do you perceive women's role in society?




    That's up to the individual woman. There is no "role " to pre-ordain in that sense. Most women, like most men, would live better lives if they had a soulmate and a flourishing family around while spending most of their mental energy at their passion, whatever that might be.

    Ultimately, it is up to the individual to decide what she wants to do. Reality will let her know if she's on the right track or not.

     


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    Post 11

    Saturday, May 21, 2005 - 11:16pmSanction this postReply
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    Nicely said, Lance.


    1)- What is your perception of Women's Studies or Feminism?

    In a word, hype.  In another word, bullshit.


    2)-What has shaped your perception?

    Too many encounters with 'feminists' who hate themselves, men, and other women.


    3)-How do you perceive women's role in society?

    However I choose to carve it out for myself.



    Post 12

    Sunday, May 22, 2005 - 9:55amSanction this postReply
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    Dean, are you seriously asking me, "Does that mean that you would not discriminate in your daughter's romantic relationship with a 45 year old woman/man?"

    Get real.

    This scenario falls into the category of crime, but since you asked.... I'd kill the creature (regardless of their gender) who dared lay a hand on my child. I don't care if it were male or female.  And I know firsthand that if you leave it to the courts, the punishment does not fit the crime.  And yes, I discriminate against a certain group. Pedophiles.  But that is my issue based upon my own family experiences.  I've seen too much not to hate.  Other than that, I'm pretty darned tolerant and have always lived a well-integrated life and don't understand how people could possibly discriminate based on sex, race, etc.

    Also, my daughter has enough common sense and high enough self-esteem not to be involved with a pedophile anyway, so it is a ridiculous situation. She is only 15, but once she is an adult, she can make her own choices.  

    (btw, it was probably an innocent question, but that was the wrong subject if you wanted a rational response from me.)




    Post 13

    Sunday, May 22, 2005 - 10:36amSanction this postReply
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    I think that feminism and women's studies are totally worthless. If women want to be equal under the law and considered as equal human beings by our society, the best way to do that is by fighting for individual rights and rationality via Objectivism. All that collectivist bullshit will only enslave women in the end. The bigger and the stronger sex will always rule over the smaller and weaker one when force is the rule in society.

    As far as roles go, I do think that there are general tendencies in men and women that suit them for different roles. However, not everyone has those tendencies, and I think people should just find out what makes them happy and do it. Something that I learned from the talents and values thread (thanks, Barbara) is that finding out what your inner drives and talents and tendencies are will help you find your passion. There should be no mandates on what women can or cannot do, but I do think there are differences in men and women that could help shape the roles they choose for themselves.

    Kelly

    Post 14

    Sunday, May 22, 2005 - 10:37amSanction this postReply
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    Amen, sister.

    Post 15

    Sunday, May 22, 2005 - 11:03amSanction this postReply
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    # What is your perception of Women's Studies or Feminism?
    # What has shaped your perception?
    # How do you perceive women's role in society?

    I think individual's bring their own previous experiences into whatever they do. The same is true of the women who choose Women's Studies. I know a women who got a degree in women's studies from UC Santa Cruz. She went on to get a masters in mathematics from Hayward. She is a well liked mathematics teacher at a local college. I've never talked politics with her [I knew her after UC Santa Cruz but before she studied at Hayward] but I had a sense from her of self confidence and self direction which I admired. I also got the sense that her college education had counteracted some part of her earlier history. I don't think all of "women's studies" is collectivist propaganda, though some people with political agendas try to hijack anything that may have some good to it. Many people sincerely want to provide opportunities and support for women who's background otherwise might not have provided it. I really like strong, intelligent and self possessed women and I personally know one with a degree in women's studies. However you get there, if you manage to ignore the propaganda along the way, is a good thing. Women's role in society is to personally flourish.

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    Post 16

    Sunday, May 22, 2005 - 7:33amSanction this postReply
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    Hi Luke,  I read your 'rules'--at this point I'm bent over laughing at your desperate effort to assert masculinity by attempts at humor (not original, by the way-over 15 years ago, I read a similar treatise composed by nurses toward doctors, while I did anesthesia)---Honestly, I can laugh at the rules wholeheartedly, because they probably illustrate each sex's vision of a perfect world---don't take away our dreams !-On another perhaps more stridently academic note,---in female rule# 6 , I think the correct word is 'egregious'---unless it's due for publication in the next Merriam-Webster, I am not familiar with the word 'egregarious'.  . I do love your attempts at humor, because having known you for 2 years in our SOLO study group, I begin to see glimmerings of hope for right brain development .Miracles still happen. Ciao, Doris 

    Post 17

    Sunday, May 22, 2005 - 7:42amSanction this postReply
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    Luke, Thanks for your cogent response. Your observations and their foundations clearly demonstrate application of Objectivist priinciples . Would that more shared your rational approach . When I complete my paper, your answers will definitely help balance some of the less insightful ones.   Ciao, Doris

    Post 18

    Sunday, May 22, 2005 - 9:22pmSanction this postReply
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    I do love your attempts at humor, because having known you for 2 years in our SOLO study group, I begin to see glimmerings of hope for right brain development 

    LOL.  I guess there's always hope!


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    Post 19

    Sunday, May 22, 2005 - 11:16pmSanction this postReply
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    Hi Doris.

    Here are a few thoughts on your questions.

    1)- What is your perception of Women's Studies or Feminism?

    I have been following these posts and a few comments by Kat with a certain discomfort, like something nagging at the back of your mind. I keep wondering why people are making such an issue out of all of this. But it is dawning on me that maybe something has gone on over here during the time I was gone - something semi-collectivist and not too healthy.

    So I will not comment on what I do not know, but I will on what I do know instead. I presume good Women's Studies and Feminism to be a sub-sub-category of history and sociology. In that context, many interesting things can be learned - just as there are many interesting things to be learned, say, from studying the contribution of Chinese immigrants to building the US railroads in the 1800's. I can't see it as anything more important.

    On the femininity issue that Feminism seems to disdain, I have been in a country where a high value is placed on femininity by women, and it shows. They do not have the aggressivity towards holding themselves up as a category as they do here, yet there are many, if not more percentage-wise, Brazilian women holding key positions in business, industry, government, NGO's and in all walks of life. There is even a professional women's basketball league that is followed assiduously (by both sexes) - and as I understand (I haven't checked recently) there is still not one professional women's basketball team in the USA, where the women's movement is supposedly going strong, with specialized studies in universities.

    I wonder how Brazil achieved such integration of women in all walks of life, with a very little formalized women's movement and study, yet retained their womanly attributes. Maybe the folks around here are missing something.

    2)-What has shaped your perception?

    As stated, I have been away, living in and observing another culture.

    Another comment I would like to make is that Brazilians in general do not hold American women in too high regard because they think American women overly compete with men. As I have observed, when a woman in Brazil holds a key position in business or government, she performs her job without sex being a part of her mindset. Well... there is generally a barrage of jokes on both sides as Brazilians are tremendously good-natured, but that seems to be where it stops. Both men and women are rewarded and punished equally, and business as usual goes on - either on merit or on office politics...

    From what I have observed, many American women go into a job already thinking about how to compete with how a man would do it. I think that is a wide detour from doing a job properly.

    3)-How do you perceive women's role in society?

    That's easy. In the kitchen...   //;-)

    Seriously, biologically a man penetrates and a woman is penetrated. Carrying a child to term is a period where a woman is extremely fragile health-wise. On the average, a woman is physically weaker and smaller that a man and has a higher voice. She menstruates and suffers mood swings.

    A division of labor with men that takes these issues into account - and others like them - will have a better chance at being successful. Other than things like those mentioned, a woman can do most anything a man can do, and she does.

    ***

    There is one general comment I would like to make. The whole issue of women's studies and Feminism is very distant from my own reality in terms of the importance it has on my daily life. I find it hard to be interested in it or take it too seriously. Sort of like saving the whales or whatever. They are pretty and big and all, but they are way too distant from my daily affairs for me to care too much about their plight...

    Women's professional and social affairs are like that. Now women on a personal level, that's another story...

    Michael


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