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Post 20

Monday, May 23, 2005 - 9:23amSanction this postReply
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Michael,

I'm glad you shared this.  The dynamic you've described in Brazil is exactly what's missing here, and over time the lack of said dynamic has become a sort of festering wound.  Men don't know how to act without offending the women, and women don't know what the hell they want.

P.S.  We've had a women's pro basketball league for a while.  It hasn't really taken off.


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Post 21

Monday, May 23, 2005 - 10:41amSanction this postReply
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Just another comment or two (or ten) on this.

In my previous post, I want to emphasize that my perspective is that of an observer who finds himself in the middle of a war and has no idea of what the fighting is all about, not as a male chauvinist.

I think one of the reasons (outside of metooism and hidden payoffs) that this sex war has unfolded here is because of the vestiges of Puritanism that have seeped into the culture, especially that part of extramarital sex (and even non-procreational sex) being a sin. Since you cannot harness reality with an idea only, and since sex hormones continue pumping regardless of any doctrine, the mangled mess that has resulted has turned a glorious and fascinating male/female difference into smuttiness, obscenity and power plays here in the USA.

There is a "macho" quality to Brazilian men and a feminine quality to Brazilian women that are so much more than affectation and posture. These qualities have become integrated on a really basic level into their character. They are very comfortable with them. And they rarely let these qualities spill over into other areas of life, especially work.

I had the experience of going down there with a bunch of politically correct notions in my head and trying to enforce them on Brazilians. Talk about learning what a false dichotomy is! I got no converts to my wars, neither for nor against. The Brazilians just scratched their heads and said something pleasant and went on about their business. After a few years of that, I sort of became like that myself. What the fuck did I want to fight about anyway? The advantages I wanted, like more equality of opportunity, were already present in their society. (There are many problems there, just not so much this.)

Now I am back in the USA, seeing a lot of people lined up for war on two sides of what, basically to me, is a non-issue. However, I do have to admit that here in the USA, with this Puritanical influence, women have had to scrap to get to be heard. So in this context, I will not say that their efforts are completely silly.

One other thing here - on sexual harassment. Here in the USA I have seen flirting in office politics used for power, self affirmation, smuttiness and a whole bunch of things that have nothing to do with mating. Down in Brazil, when a pretty woman walks by, the men normally gawk shamelessly at them (after they pass so as not to be too obvious) and the women find it as a compliment, even swinging their hips more sensuously and looking back smiling. That used to shock me a bit and it really got on the nerves of some of the more feminist American women I have known. But the issue is biological, sort of like when a male dog picks up his ears, stares and his tail starts quivering when a female dog passes. It is certainly not some kind of smutty obscenity or men trying to show off to each other or neurotically trying to dominate a woman - not in that society.

Down there they have commercials on prime time TV showing a woman demonstrating how to put a condom on using a banana. They were completely confused and amused by the Janet Jackson Nipplegate affair, especially as their TV prime-time mini-series opening titles often include fully nude females. Carnaval is a joyful explosion and celebration of the differences between men and women, with lots of large feather creations on seminude and nude female bodies to emphasize that they are beautiful like that, and men dressed in typical comfortable male attire. (The culture down there is very soccer oriented, so a beautiful male body to a Brazilian is not a weight lifter, but a slender "normal" body. That ain't as great as the curves women have. This is why I think there is not too much sexy men's clothing. Still, you should see some of the male underwear brief billboard ads. The seminude men are so sensual that they even make me drool a little.)

Now go to the office where a woman is the boss. And there are many - more so percentage-wise than here I believe. Everybody will make jokes once in a while and gawk, but let a male underling show real disrespect (not what is considered as sexual disrespect in the USA) and see how far it gets him. Let him even insist on being too intimate with his innuendo and see if he doesn't get fired.

So if opportunity is the goal, why not look at someone who is getting it more right than they do here without all the fighting - and try to learn?

To be frank, Brazilians are just too busy fucking to be worried about sexism. Their focus is biological, not social or religious. I think that is healthier.

Michael


Edit - Thanks for the basketball link, JI. I know it might be hard to conceive, but Hortência is just as famous in Brazil as Michael Jordan is here.

(Edited by Michael Stuart Kelly on 5/23, 10:48am)


Post 22

Monday, May 23, 2005 - 12:35pmSanction this postReply
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Michael,

I also had the same experience. I lived in Austria for seven years.

While I was there I was delighted to find that women loved to flirt with men openly in any social setting. Men loved doing it and Women loved the attention.

In NZ (where I came from), women are so pent up that any overt flirting by sober men is considered to be some sort of sexual harassment. Flirting can only occur at parties or night clubs in dark corners when the alcohol flows.

So at first I was pleasantly surprised by this open flirting mentality in Austria, but of course I loved it and actively embraced it :-)

Now living in the UK, I have observed much the same mentality as in NZ. Pent up women insecure with their sexuality believing that the world is inhabited by threatening predatory males.

Bah!

Post 23

Monday, May 23, 2005 - 1:02pmSanction this postReply
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Kat: "This scenario falls into the category of crime, but since you asked.... I'd kill the creature (regardless of their gender) who dared lay a hand on my child. I don't care if it were male or female. "

See, this is PRECISELY why I think Kat is firmly in the running for coolest SOLO broad. ;>) (And I mean 'broad' with tongue firmly in cheek, given the very thread topic).

Kelly: "I think that feminism and women's studies are totally worthless."

Now, see, I do not. There are many great female authors, thinkers and artists throughout history that you just don't get exposure to UNLESS you take some of these classes. And it is good to get a different perspective. That said, I agree with virtually everything else Kelly wrote. So, while I find such not to be utterly worthless, Id much rather, say, have the average student spend more time on really learning about Colonial America and the Founding Fathers. And basic logic and economics. And real philosophy...

Tangentially, I also discovered another use for feminists and Womyn's Studies ladies in college, but my shy and retiring nature forbids that I go into any further detail, you understand...

Ultimately, my response to Feminism and Women's Studies is the same as my response to everything that I think is a waste of time. It's your business, good luck with it. If you ASK my opinon--here it is--but it's your life, good luck and I wish you no ill, as long as our interests do not cross.

Michael: "...Brazilians in general do not hold American women in too high regard because they think American women overly compete with men."

I think many women in America believe they must ACT like men to succeed in traditionally male activities. I once dated a woman who artificially lowered her voice when speaking in a group because she read some feminist crap about how men are genetically programmed to ignore high-pitched voices and only pay attention to low pitched voices--I can tell you, this is NOT the case. The only thing that helps to ignore the high pitched female voice is turning the television up REAL LOUD, and putting on some sci-fi movie (preferably zombie movie of some flavor)--that usually gets them out of the room, real fast. Of course, then you run the risk of having an important conversation about their day, their feelings, or the relationships 'round about bed time, so its a real Catch-22.

Post 24

Monday, May 23, 2005 - 2:31pmSanction this postReply
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"feminism and women's studies...There are many great female authors, thinkers and artists throughout history that you just don't get exposure to UNLESS you take some of these classes."

Scott, this is interesting to me, as I'd like to read them. Can you give me your top ten (or less if there are fewer)?

[Also in my studies of Asian and especially Chinese history/literature/thinking, I have been looking for great writers/thinkers.. But what I end up finding so often is fragments from Confucius or only haiku-like poetry, for example...rather than extended or integrated or system- or plot-building. Frustrating!! ]

Michael (and Marcus and anyone else who has lived in a different culture), I really appreciate it when you do a post explaining how Brazil or another country compares and contrast to America. Thanks!!

WRT Brazil and women's acceptance and integration, I wonder if it also might have to do with the fact that Brazil was from early years a multi-racial society. And once you accept race difference as okay, easy, and natural, accepting sex difference the same way follows rather naturally?

Phil
(Edited by Philip Coates
on 5/23, 2:36pm)


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Post 25

Monday, May 23, 2005 - 3:35pmSanction this postReply
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Phil,
WRT Brazil and women's acceptance and integration, I wonder if it also might have to do with the fact that Brazil was from early years a multi-racial society.
It all mixed up together. In old times, blacks were slaves and there were lots of native Indians. Enter the Portuguese - who will enthusiastically and repeatedly fuck anything on 2 or 4 legs - and you get a mutli-racial mix pretty quickly.

The Portuguese also didn't mind mixing with Orientals, Arabs and anything else bearing sex organs.

About these fantastic Brazilian women, there is only one small problem - the not so fantastic Brazilian families who come appended to them.

//;-)

Michael


Post 26

Thursday, May 26, 2005 - 7:41amSanction this postReply
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Hi Doris,

Just to follow up, how did it go with your women's study group? Did you give a talk, write an essay or what?  Did any of our opinions reshape any of your own views? Please come on back into the discussion.

What are your own responses to those three questions you posted and how does objectivism relate to feminism in your view?


Post 27

Thursday, May 26, 2005 - 7:58amSanction this postReply
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Hey, Kat, you will need to reach Doris directly through her personal e-mail address, available via her SOLO Member profile, to entice her back here.  She normally does not browse these forums.

Post 28

Sunday, May 29, 2005 - 6:53amSanction this postReply
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Hi Kathy, Thanks for the interest you expressed in my actions in Women's Studies Class @ UCF, and my own 'take' on questions I posed.To answer your questions in order, I responded  in essay form, combining responses (with editing) of 8 individuals plus excerpts from the SOLO Forum. Our class is online, but we meet 1 evening weekly for 4 hours @ UCF, so there is opportunity for 'realtime' dialogue.Some of the Forum opinions echoed thoughts of some people I interviewed, some Forum responses were totally off the wall , from my perspective, to the point of not responding thoughtfully to the questions. I did use a response from Luke, when he referred to the movement as 'Quasi-Marxist'. It may have partially generated from ads paid for by the "New England Free Press" when the "Boston Women's Health Book Collective" published "Our Bodies ,Ourselves" in 1973.Other than that, he cited Objectivist and Libertarian viewpoints, designating 'second wave' feminist activities as an aspect of 'dialectical materialism'.Some of our mutual friends affectionately call Luke a 'fundamentalist Objectivist'. I see myself as a 'rational Objectivist', and perhaps more 'middle of the road' in my walk. I cannot say that any of the Forum opinions reshaped my view of feminism----perhaps they helped me solidify my own position as I correlated my feminist perspective with Objectivist principles I adhere to. I see the heroine protagonists in Fountainhead and Atlas Shrugged embodying many of the core values I subscribe to as a feminist.
My own responses to the 3 questions were presented in essay form for class using 834 words. For brevity and 'posting' purpose here, I will answer in order asked also. 
Perception of feminism?-Women who first of all know who they are, have identified their core values, and live their lives consistent with them.The same definition can apply to males, so I do not see how we rationally can be termed 'man-haters'.
What has shaped your perception?-Living 71 years with radical life style changes and choices, learning who I am from the experiences, and ultimately doing a '180' in perspective from where I was as a young girl and woman.
My perception of 'women's role' in society? Participating with 'enlightened males ' in promoting a society that incorporates values of reason, fairness, and ultimately, true equality.Also, as an individual, I'll borrow a phrase from Army Recruiters "Be All You Can Be" !
 Hope I answered your questions . Doris W.


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