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Tuesday, June 28, 2005 - 9:28pmSanction this postReply
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Standing with bare feet in moss, buried in trees that hide more than they show, I exhilarate as the sun chips through the leaves in bright gold.  There is so, so much wildness in the world, I have a sometimes animal connection with the people with whom I am close.  Are there things that won't be explained by science for thousands of years?  Am I to wipe all away, stamping it under the ugly mark of mysticism?

I have friends that drum after dark, and I walk around the edge of the circle like a pict with designs on my face from the woad, secret at their backs.  They don't know I'm there 'til I pull in my breath and shout birdcall, like a predator crow.  No one startles at the sound, because the sound is part of the dance that is keeping the fire lit.

I have experiences that bring me joy and enrich my life.  As a person who has newly dug deep into the principles developed by Rand and others, I am constantly questioning what parts of my pagan spiritual experiences to let go, and which to keep.  It is something I think about quite a lot.

Er . . .help?

Julia


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Tuesday, June 28, 2005 - 10:10pmSanction this postReply
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Reality consists of material and non-material.... as such, there is such as 'real world spirituality', which has nothing mystical about it, but is concerned with providing meaning to the material - and that includes appreciation and joy in the materials comprising nature...

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Tuesday, June 28, 2005 - 10:55pmSanction this postReply
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Julia,-
 Am I to wipe all away, stamping it under the ugly mark of mysticism?
What a thing it would be to get to the bottom of that. I've stuck a pin in it to go back to and resolve another day, but maybe the day has come.

 Spring, Botticelli

I've always thought the above zoom looked like an extra attractive Michelle Pfeiffer but you know what? It's you! Uncanny.
This is a bad shot, the real image is better and less vertically elongated. I think if you see a decent image of Spring you might use it as I plan to- a starting place for reconciling paganism with Objectivism. Maybe Birth Of Venus too, I'm unsure.

Your inquiry is most worthy of the intention of the 'sense of life' enterprise, good on you.

SOLO- Putting the craic into Objectivism


 


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Wednesday, June 29, 2005 - 12:00amSanction this postReply
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To the believers:

The only "religion" consonant with Objectivism is pantheism (because it is ultimately reducible to naturalism -- an Objectivist-approved conception).

Ed

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Wednesday, June 29, 2005 - 1:43amSanction this postReply
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Julia:
>I have friends that drum after dark, and I walk around the edge of the circle like a pict with designs on my face from the woad, secret at their backs....As a person who has newly dug deep into the principles developed by Rand and others, I am constantly questioning what parts of my pagan spiritual experiences to let go, and which to keep. ...Er . . .help?

Girlfriend, do you ever need to discover the marvellous Camille Paglia! (if you haven't already, that is)

Seriously.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Camille_Paglia

- Daniel

Post 5

Wednesday, June 29, 2005 - 3:59amSanction this postReply
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She has a new book come out, too, to add to those others have already read of her...

Post 6

Wednesday, June 29, 2005 - 7:37amSanction this postReply
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Robert, hurray!  "Real World Spirituality," now I have a name for it.

Rick, that's lovely, and what a beautiful picture.  Yes, it took a little courage posting this!

Ed, yes pantheism, as some say, "we revere and care for nature, we accept this life as our only life, and this earth as our only paradise, if we look after it. We revel in the beauty of nature and the night sky, and are full of wonder at their mystery and power."
 
Daniel, wow, Camille is marvelous.  I'm reading Hillary Clinton:  the First Drag Queen.  Thanks for the introduction.

I think there is a great deal more to say on this topic.  There are many tricky issues because of the abuses of the environmental movements.

From the shadows,

Julia


Post 7

Wednesday, June 29, 2005 - 8:18amSanction this postReply
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Julia - check out www.thespiritualvisualizer.blogspot.com/ ...

Post 8

Wednesday, June 29, 2005 - 11:34amSanction this postReply
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Julia writes:
>Daniel, wow, Camille is marvelous.  I'm reading Hillary Clinton:  the First Drag Queen.  Thanks for the introduction.

Ah, yes, that one was originally called "Ice Queen, Drag Queen". It's a great piece.

I really, really recommend you get 'Sexual Personae' out and read the introduction. (as SP is the longest work ever written by a woman, including Atlas Shrugged and Middlemarch, you can stop after that for now...;-)) As well as being one of the most masterful pieces of prose styling I've ever read, it actually puts her entire position in a nutshell, so you can 'try before you buy'!

Her collection of essays 'Sex, Art, and American Culture' is also a good place to start.

- Daniel

Post 9

Wednesday, June 29, 2005 - 12:36pmSanction this postReply
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This could be an interesting read:

Religion and Objectivism by Diana Mertz Hsieh.
I would define "religion" as "a philosophical system which justifies its tenants with respect to the supernatural and which requires faith from its adherents." This definition isn't too far off from those given in Webster's, which include: "the service and worship of God or the supernatural," "commitment or devotion to religious faith or observance," "a cause, principle, or system of beliefs held to with ardor and faith."

So is Objectivism at all compatible with religion? Very simply, no. Faith is a completely invalid means to knowledge and consistently undermines the use of reason. The supernatural is also out of the bounds of Objectivism, since claims about the supernatural generally involve a mind/body dichotomy, primacy of consciousness, and a rejection of the law of identity, not to mention the sheer lack of evidence for the existence of the entities involved.
If the "Paganism" you refer to is somehow outside the definition of faith given, it could very well be exempt. In any case, logic does not preclude us from enjoying life. I don't see how dancing around a bonfire to the beat of drums violate Objectivist principles - unless you're gang rapping at the same time... :-)

Post 10

Wednesday, June 29, 2005 - 12:43pmSanction this postReply
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Hey Julia,

You don't need any help, your doing fine. I too definately get an emotional response from being in such settings and seeing such rituals. Even participating in a campfire sing-along at night has an unusually powerful effect on me.

When I was in my early teens I went to an Audubon sponsored camp on an island off the coast of Maine three separate times. The forest on the island was very dense with a thick carpet of moss so that it was quite dark even during the day-time. Standing or sitting alone in it was such an amazing experience. The sound and atmosphere were very removed from what we experience in daily life.

There was also a small wetland area behind my house, with lots of trees, and underbrush. It bordered a cemetery, so human traffic was low. I built myself a seat in the middle of it, where I would often go and sit. Just listening to everything around me.

Finally, being part of a medieval reenactment group in England. Hundreds of people in period costume camped out. All the singing, dancing, and revelry. Amazing times.

Ethan


Post 11

Wednesday, June 29, 2005 - 12:57pmSanction this postReply
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Ahah - a member of The Society for Creative Anachronism?


Post 12

Wednesday, June 29, 2005 - 1:04pmSanction this postReply
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Hi Robert,

Actually no :-) 

 The group I was in was part of a large but loose group of what amounted to private clubs. We were often paid to re-enact battles for the British Heritage Society. One big difference between what we did, and the SCA is that our groups used blunted steel weapons, rather than the ratan <sp?> weapons favored in the SCA. There were actually lots of differences, and I've heard that there are lots of differences within the SCA itself as well. I do know several current and former SCA people though!

Ethan


Post 13

Wednesday, June 29, 2005 - 1:30pmSanction this postReply
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I see nothing wrong with rites and rituals as long as they're intellectually benign.

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Post 14

Wednesday, June 29, 2005 - 1:35pmSanction this postReply
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Symbolisms aid in giving or focusing meaning to material events...

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Post 15

Wednesday, June 29, 2005 - 2:16pmSanction this postReply
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Are there things that won't be explained by science for thousands of years?
Sure. I'd be surprised, and a little saddened in a way, if the universe proved so simple that we could understand every facet of it in a thousand years of study.
Am I to wipe all away, stamping it under the ugly mark of mysticism?
Good heavens no! There is a wide, wide gulf between spiritualism and mysticism. What you describe would only be mysticism if there really wasn't a beautiful, serene forest there and someone was trying to convince you that there was, if only you'd believe in it. If an Objectivist tells you that what you're feeling is in some way invalid, ask him what he feels when listening to music, or watching the sway of a beautiful woman walking.
I have friends that drum after dark, and I walk around the edge of the circle like a pict with designs on my face from the woad, secret at their backs. They don't know I'm there 'til I pull in my breath and shout birdcall, like a predator crow. No one startles at the sound, because the sound is part of the dance that is keeping the fire lit.

I have experiences that bring me joy and enrich my life. As a person who has newly dug deep into the principles developed by Rand and others, I am constantly questioning what parts of my pagan spiritual experiences to let go, and which to keep. It is something I think about quite a lot.

Great - the fact that you think about it a lot means you're, well, thinking - which suggests again that you're talking about spirituality, not mysticism. Creative, interactive expressions of joy shared with other people. Sounds rational and life-affirming to me.
Er . . .help?
The only advice I can offer is don't buy into the idea that I've seen some Objectivists buy into: that just because you can't explain something completely, means it's mysticism & therefore invalid in an Objectivist framework. It might just be that, well, you can't explain it yet.

If you feel uplifted, serene, joyful, whatever standing barefoot in a forest, great. Don't understand why? Then try to work out why it is that you do. Don't whatever you do automatically write it off.

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Wednesday, June 29, 2005 - 2:23pmSanction this postReply
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Great post Duncan!

Post 17

Wednesday, June 29, 2005 - 2:25pmSanction this postReply
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Julia,

I think that you've found something that gregarious people seek;  an opportunity for sharing with kindred spirits.  This is one of the attractions of organized religions; among those who lack a strong faith in the Divine; but feel a desire to join.

Naturally solitary folk may pooh pooh the idea; but I think there's a need for ritual and tradition that helps many people during times of crisis.  Look how people of "faith'' came  together after the World Trade Building Attack?   Objectivists who had found Pantheism would have had  rituals to help console their grief.  Instead, atheists were assaulted with public prayer; and unable to formally commune with likeminded others.  Who would deny another of creating rituals and formal practices; if such acts bring peace of mind, comfort, and elation? 

Ayn Rand reminded us that nature must be obeyed.  Is there something heinous about worshipping that which cannot be disobeyed without peril?

Is this the new mantra ?          "Objectivists as Pantheists"             Repeated a few times it has a rap-ring to it. 

The solitary ones need not join in, of course.
Thanks for this very positive suggestion.

Sharon




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Post 18

Thursday, June 30, 2005 - 6:23amSanction this postReply
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Julia - the wicked Wiccan,

One question. The photo in post #6. Is that what I think it is supposed to be? ;-)

I personally have two reservations about paganism :

1) The very real risk of getting burnt pubes when jumping over the Bon fire and...

2) Taking the mystical ideas behind it seriously

If you enjoy nature why not do it without the mystical nonsense?

Sit outside underneath the stars, breathe in the fresh air, build bonfires, dance around nude if you want, climb trees, play in bushes...etc

It's called enjoying yourself :-)

(Edited by Marcus Bachler on 6/30, 1:03pm)


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Post 19

Thursday, June 30, 2005 - 10:39amSanction this postReply
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Hello,

Just writing to note to Julia that I've also found value in both Pagan traditions and Randian philosophy.

Fly by Night,

Jess'

(P.S., I'm surprised no one has mentioned Rush for Pagan/Ayn Rand syntheses).






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