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Post 160

Wednesday, July 20, 2005 - 5:29pmSanction this postReply
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George,

I have long pondered the appropriateness of broaching this with you. This seems the time and place.

You never pluralize “Objectivist.” In all your posts, I challenge you to find one where “Objectivist” is written in the plural, with an s at the end, even though you clearly intend plurality.

Jon

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Post 161

Wednesday, July 20, 2005 - 7:16pmSanction this postReply
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(George Cordero:) I offer a 5 atlas-point sanction to anyone that finds the means to kill this toilet of a thread topic.
HITLER !!!!

In accordance with the Uniform Forum Operations (UFO) protocol, the word "HITLER" having been posted, this thread is now terminated.

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Post 162

Wednesday, July 20, 2005 - 7:59pmSanction this postReply
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Matthew,

The published evidence I have seen with my own eyes against Peron that needs no further presentation is the quantity of public interviews where he repeatedly contradicts himself. That is enough for me to hold absolutely no interest in this person at all, much less as a spokesman for the values I hold most dear.

Why do long public interviews need a further hearing? The only one who talked was Peron - the others asked questions. How can he defend himself against himself - saying not one, but several contradictory statements on the same point?

Unbound, as disgusting as it is, merely is icing to that particular cake.

Legally, I agree that Peron should be allowed to present his case to the government on the visa thing, but then I have absolutely no interest in that matter. Better, I do have a personal interest, but not a legal one. I have an extremely strong desire to help keep a hostile, conniving and apparently deranged person out of the backyard of a person I care deeply about (Linz).

I will continue to post on this. That is my contribution.

Michael


Post 163

Wednesday, July 20, 2005 - 8:11pmSanction this postReply
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Not a big deal, George.

I blame phonetics, despite the good things about it.

I think you sound it out in your mind, and there is a lot of “S” at the end of “objectivist.”

I think your mind is satisfied with the quantity of “S” at the end and you just forget.

Jon

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Post 164

Wednesday, July 20, 2005 - 8:26pmSanction this postReply
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Adam your post contains several error of fact, and is frankly slanderous. 

 

1. 

the breakthrough in the police investigation of your pal Graham Capill came in February 2005. Peters first voiced his objections to Jim Peron being in New Zealand on March 9th 2005. This proves nothing, but it stinks.”

 

First you are correct it proves nothing, it’s a case of the fallacy post hoc ergo propter hoc. Second, you fail to mention that Capill’s identity  as accused was suppressed by court order which was lifted sometime after Peters made his allegations in parliament so Madeleine did not know it about Capill until after the events in question. I was in fact their when she found out and it was several weeks after the Peters thing.

 

Second, Capill was not Madeleine’s “pal” he was an acquaintance of ours, whom we had been on cordial relations with until 2003 when Madeleine did fall out with him and his supporter’s politically she had not seen or heard of Capill since. We have cut off all association with him, and publically denounced his behavour as soon as we had evidence it was true. I in fact have condemned him in the media on no less than five occasions.

 

2. you said Madeleine has argued that there was

 

 

some equivalence between Jim Peron's "crime" of putting ink on paper, and Graham Capill's four-year rape of at least three, and probably more, 8-to-12-year-old girls.

 

Madeleine has not said this here, nor has she written this anywhere on her blog, nor is their any writings or places I am aware of where she has uttered this claim. Here you simply make an unsubstantiated claim with no evidence.

 

3. You state that Madeleine drove

Jim Peron from his home of 11 years, and separate him from his lover, and claim that mere expression of indecent opinion justifies this”

 

Actually, Madeleine did not drive Peron from NZ, Peron left NZ voluntarily, the department of immigration decided to cancel his visa, on the judgement of the chief censor someone Madeleine has nothing to do with. Madeleine had no say or involvement in either decision, she has criticised the lack of due process  you mentioned publicly on national radio. Her sole involvement was documenting that Perons public claims, some of which amounted to Slander against Perigo, Peters and Dywer were false.

 

4. You state

 

 

With regard to Capill and Christianism - he believes that concubinage with young girls is Biblically justified; his political objective is a Christianist state that would outlaw homosexuality but legalize marriage and concubinage with young girls if their parents approved.

 

 Again where is any evidence for this claim? you have merely stated it . I know of no statement by Capill to this effect, nor any policy platform he advocated to this effect. In fact one point that has been repeatedly made by the media is that Capill regularly condemned child adult sex, and prosecuted those who engaged in it. This is documented on the web.

 

 

 

Some of his writings about this were on the Web (they were since removed)”

 

I see there was evidence, but there is now no trace of it. This subjective response is obviously inadequate. By this reasoning, I could say you were a rapist, there is a mountain of evidence for this, the reason however no one can find it is because you have covered it up. 

 

Obviously if one is to make claims like this the onus is on the person who makes them to prove it, I gave Peron that respect, I did not make claims about him advocated child se until I had adequate proof. I expect his supporters to do the same.  

 

 

“. That is the goal that Madeleine was helping him toward. And, just as NAMBLA was promoting the ideological justification for pederasty, Madelaine was helping Capill promote the "Biblical" politics by which Capill justified his rape of those 3 girls.”

 

Again false and no evidence, Madeleine has not ever advocated sex with young girls of girls with parental consent, nor has she adopted a theological platform to justify it. Again you provide no evidence for this claim, nowhere has she ever asserted such a position in writing, nowhere has she put her name to a policy platform that agreed with it.  

 

In fact as I noted above, nowhere to my knowledge did Capill advocate any of these things either.

 

Your response is merely to repeat slanderous and false claims, as part of a fallacious ad hominem tu quoque on Madeleine. It is both false and irrational

 

5 .I  will however add a point about the selective epistemology Peron’s supporters utilise in when they engage in such fallacious attacks. On the one hand we are told that despite the wealth of evidence produced, multiple eyewitnesses, records, writings by Peron himself, corroborating sources etc. We are told that it is unfair to make assessments about Peron’s activities. However, in the same breath, the most bizarre slanderous claims about Madeleine and I are believed by the same people and proposed by with little or no evidence whatsoever.

 

There is one epistemological standard applied to Peron another to us. This inconsistent epistemic standard is clearly arbitrary and appears to be based on political and anti-theological concerns more than a rational consideration of the matter.   

Given the way objectivists castigate Christians for their alleged rationality, I find this ironic

 

6. Finally, you stated in an earlier post how you were seeking tenure and wanted to guard your reputation against insinuations you supported child sex. I am just finishing my Ph.D and currently seeking academic appointments after that, in the last three months Peron and people associated with him have made all sorts of slanderous attacks upon my character and the character of my wife, with little if any documentation to back this up. I ask you show me the same respect you correctly demand that others show you. 

 

Matthew Flannagan 


Post 165

Wednesday, July 20, 2005 - 7:13pmSanction this postReply
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George Cordero intones:

"Let us go back to the beginning, to post number '0', by the person that opened this topic."

Yes, George, let's.

"Ask yourself, what was his purpose?"

Why not ask me?  I'm right here.  Or would asking me get in the way of your agenda?

My purpose was to learn what Linz had to say about rumors I'd heard.  I was curious.

George thinks I had another, more sinister purpose, of course.  But I think his view should be regarded with caution.

Consider: learning to write correct Standard English is a very simple thing.  Many people master it by the time they're 12 years old.  What are we to think of the mental prowess (and thus of the reliability, when it comes to questions of any complexity) of someone who is apparently incapable of learning this simple thing?  If he can't spell or write a grammatical sentence, why are we to suppose that he can correctly analyze matters of philosophy or psychology?

"She's a writer," John Galt tells Dagny Taggart about a young woman who
lives in Galt's Gulch.  "The kind of writer who wouldn't be published
outside.  She believes that when one deals with words, one deals with the
mind."
--Ayn Rand, Atlas Shrugged, New York: Dutton, 35th Anniversary Edition,
1992, p. 720.

"The ability to think precisely, and thus to write precisely, cannot be
achieved without observing grammatical rules."
--Ayn Rand, The Art of Nonfiction: A Guide for Writers and Readers, New
York: Plume Books, 2001, p. 99.

George Cordero, on another thread, selected at random:

"ISIL's nutcase and wacko ratio is so high, and their theories so bizaar [sic], that few people are taken in by such nonsense."

George Cordero on this thread:

"The fact that many Objectivist [sic] hold similar or identical positions on a host of peripheral political issues with many of the people at ISIL, [sic] should not obscure the enormous gulf that exist [sic] between the two at the philosophic level. Similar advocacy on the issue of ‘gun rights’ or ‘abortion’ does not a kindred spirit make."

" Here everyone stands 158 posts later, and what has been achieved, and to who's [sic] benefit?"

"This can often help one understand the motivation, and once the motivation is discerned, then one can accurately gage [sic] whether ones [sic] own participation is a wise choice."


"What I found was a catalogue of insults, derision, and ad hominem attacks directed at Objectivist [sic], and Objectivism in general. The poster originally appeared to speak in defense of his 'friend and colleague', the anarchist Saddamite, Justin Raimondo. He has consistently portrayed Objectivist [sic] as 'dolts', 'ignorant' and 'delusional'. These characterizations have not been limited solely towards the novice Objectivist [sic], but also towards people such as Tibor Machen [sic] and Robert Bidinotto."

" A quick scan of a few of this thread starters [sic] posts and one will find an educated and articulate man."

I wish I could say the same, George.  If Rand was right that "when one deals with words, one deals with the mind," I have to wonder whether there's a mind in your head -- or anywhere else around you -- at all.

JR



Post 166

Thursday, July 21, 2005 - 1:35amSanction this postReply
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MSK,

Legally, I agree that Peron should be allowed to present his case to the government on the visa thing
I'm glad that you see that. You of course have a right to form your own opinion about the allegations if you think you've seen enough evidence to do so. My posts here have been concerned with that issue of due process. I guess it's a lawyer thing...

MH


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Post 167

Thursday, July 21, 2005 - 9:37amSanction this postReply
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Jeff,

Attacking George's argument over his lack of attention to grammatical detail or inability to write sentences consistent with the rules of English grammar (whatever you wish to believe) is childish. George is a long valued member of SOLO. You seem to be distracting attention from his main point - that your intentions in raising this topic were disingenuous.

I am inclined to agree. Why did you not go to Linz with your questions directly via private email or SOLOmail? He could have answered them without this great big ruckus being stirred up. I can't help but think you wanted to cause such a ruckus.

You raised this topic when a big bustup had occurred on SOLO, when a number of valued members had just left and when relations between Barbara and Linz were at their worst. If you want Ayn Rand quotes, how about this one?

"Have a little patience, Homer. I wouldn't hurry. There's a proper time for everything. There's such a thing as a psychological moment."

Ellsworth Toohey, Pg. 560, The Fountainhead (Fiftieth Anniversary Edition).


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Post 168

Thursday, July 21, 2005 - 6:41pmSanction this postReply
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Andrew, you wrote:
... and when relations between Barbara and Linz were at their worst
This is a misunderstanding between giants, not a war between adversaries.

People are judged by what they say and what they do, even giants. What these two have done in life that is admirable speaks volumes to someone like myself. They are both on the same side in every essence. There are merely a couple of minor issues that blew up way out of proportion between them (yes, Peron and all the other stuff are extremely minor issues compared to what they are doing to help to change the world for the better).

I desperately hope both will see it that way and do whatever giants do to get back to good relations.

I suggest a peace pipe, a hatchet and a hole to bury it in.

Michael


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Post 169

Thursday, July 21, 2005 - 6:51pmSanction this postReply
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Matthew,

I fully appreciate the lawyer thing. I have come out very loudly in favor of due process earlier in this thread.

What I cannot ignore is the number of contradictory interviews. Which is the truth and which is a lie? Only one thing is absolutely clear to me when I encounter this kind of irrefutable bullshit - the person interviewed (Peron) is a public liar in some of the cases.

Which interview do you believe?

Michael


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Post 170

Sunday, July 24, 2005 - 10:16amSanction this postReply
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The FIRST thing that someone accused of pedophilia should do, if he is innocent, is to have A VERY LARGE AND OBVIOUS PRESS CONFERENCE where he denounces all of it and unequivocally denies any involvement. As Objectivists/Libertarians, we should bend over backwards giving an avowed Libertarian a stage to do so. And, whether State sanction should occur, of course, should be decided via due process.

If you are GUILTY of such involvement, and are secretive about that fact, you obfuscate, change the subject, and turn attention to a different issue/issues. Then, Objectivists/Libertarians have a more difficult issue--whether to risk damage to reputation by association by shedding light on it, or, by sweeping it under the carpet and trying to subtly disassociate yourself from it (and risk damage to reputation for honesty and integrity). I'd choose option 1 as moral.

Mr. Peron has eveidently denied everything, for example, here:
http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/HL0503/S00082.htm

But he does admit carrying a NAMBLA newsletter at his book shop. He seems to suggest he didn't know anything about it or what it was--odd for the owners of an alternative lifestyle book store. He says he was required to carry it as a term of sale of the business to him. As a buyer, wouldn't you want to know the nature of a periodical which formed the basis of an owner's agreement to sell you the business? I find this aspect of the story rather fishy.

I wonder why no one that I have been able to find just out and out asked him whether he supports NAMBLA, and a child's freedom to be raped by adults?


(Edited by Scott DeSalvo
on 7/24, 11:49am)


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