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Friday, July 15, 2005 - 1:57pmSanction this postReply
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Here's a question that's bugged me for a long time, and keeps coming up in different contexts. Do such things as emergent properties exist? For example, Dawkins is a famed reductionist - all biological properties are determined at the genetic level, give or take. Macroevolutionists, on the other hand, track evolution over huge time scales - a million years is but a blip on the screen - and notice patterns and processes that wouldn't otherwise be predicted looking solely at the genetic, cellular, or populational levels. But, to go farther "down", are genetic processes emergent, or determined by their chemical structures and properties? Is everything tracable and predictable from the sub-atomic level? What about consciousness? I know this gets on the determinism controversy, but I'm thinking more about physical systems and sciences than ethics, free-will, etc.

Comments? I lean towards the existence of emergent properties, myself. Then again, perhaps it's a non-question. Perhaps, given enough time and knowledge, we will be able to predict these phenomena from their parts. I just have trouble swallowing the idea that my consciousness, and me typing right now, are the result of interactions among organized bits, be they quarks, atoms, molecules, cells or whatever.

Katie


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Friday, July 15, 2005 - 2:35pmSanction this postReply
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I'm wondering if one can talk about emergent properties using reductionism. I remember reading somewhere about bad vs. good reductionism and the author talked about how our different fields of study are just different tools; like different magnifications on a microscope.

If the criterion for having emergent properties is the ability to look at the smallest level and not be able to make predictions then I think it's reasonable to say that emergent properties exist. Looking at billiard balls on the atomic level won't get you far because you've lost sight of the big picture. It's hard to make predictions without context. Forest for the trees and all that.

But I can think of a number of situations where collections of particles have properties vastly different from single particles. Even something as simple as an electron and a hydrogen atom. The electron floating around won't "see" a proton and another electron, it'll "see" what we call a hydrogen atom. Even though the hydrogen atom can be reduced to parts, for hot electron on hydrogen action purposes it is a hydrogen atom, not a proton and another electron.

So, if the question is, are emergent properties a consequence of human prediction abilities or something innate, I'd say they're something innate. But that's just an offhand guess.

Sarah

(Edited by Sarah House
on 7/15, 2:49pm)


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Friday, July 15, 2005 - 2:40pmSanction this postReply
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What exactly do you mean by "emergent properties"?

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Friday, July 15, 2005 - 2:43pmSanction this postReply
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Hong's absurdly long post made me rethink my position. If an emergent property is "a novel property that unpredictably comes from a combination of two simpler constituents," then my hydrogen-electron example doesn't work. That "unpredictably" suggests to me that emergent properties are, in fact, consequences of human prediction abilities.

Sarah
(Edited by Sarah House
on 7/15, 2:45pm)


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Friday, July 15, 2005 - 2:54pmSanction this postReply
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Hi Katie,

 

Discussions of emergent properties often come off quite muddled to me. As I understand the term, an emergent property is some pattern that emerges from a collection of simpler patterns, and accepting an emergent property’s existence helps us make predictions, predictions that we could not make (or not make as easily) were we to accept the existence of only the simpler patterns whence the emergent property emerges.

 

Can we sometimes better our predictions by accepting that patterns can emerge from simpler patterns? If yes, then it seems sensible for me that we should accept the existence of emergent properties. And I do think the answer is yes. In so many fields, there are so many macro-studies, many of which are awfully handy.

 

To be sure, many (if not all) reductionists accept emergent properties. They accept that it’s often easier to study and predict stuff based on patterns that emerge from simpler patterns. Sometimes there’s just too much of a mess going on at the simpler level for any reasonable study or prediction. But they maintain their reductionism by arguing that if they could just get a hold of that mess on the simpler level, they’d be able to predict better than by using the emergent property.

 

Also, accepting emergent properties does little to escape the idea that we’re just a bunch of little, physical, organized bits. It might be that consciousness is an emergent property, but then from which simpler patterns does it emerge? The physicalist will say it emerged from the physical. The non-physicalist will insist otherwise. Positing emergent properties won’t resolve the debate. Aside, if consciousness is truly basic, then I think it’d be a misnomer to call it emergent.

 

Jordan

 


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Friday, July 15, 2005 - 3:14pmSanction this postReply
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I've been thinking for some time about writing an article about the ontology of emergent properties. This thread has given me some much-needed additional incentive to get started... Please hit the check-mark if you would be interested in reading one.
(Edited by Adam Reed
on 7/15, 3:17pm)


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Friday, July 15, 2005 - 3:19pmSanction this postReply
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Ha, Sarah, when we mix terms in philosophy and science, I always get lost. I only know one set of language.



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Friday, July 15, 2005 - 3:26pmSanction this postReply
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Ha Adam, sneaky self promotion...

I've been keeping tab of the articles that you promised to write:

...stories about Communist Poland,

...biography of Ron Merill,

...and now ontology of emergent properties.

I am still holding my breath! 


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Friday, July 15, 2005 - 3:32pmSanction this postReply
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Hong,

I am very pleased that you are looking forward to reading the promised articles. They are indeed all in various stages of work...

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Friday, July 15, 2005 - 9:09pmSanction this postReply
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Jordan:
>Positing emergent properties won’t resolve the debate.

Yes, Jordan's right. If you're not careful, it becomes a piece of verbalism that doesn't really get you anywhere, let alone out of determinism. That's where I think Sarah goes wrong, guessing that 'emergent' properties are somehow 'innate'. That would mean that an emergent property such as consciousness, or life, was somehow 'innate' in the conditions prior to it - as, say, a jigsaw puzzle is 'innate' in its pieces. You'd then end up with a kind of panpsychism, which is probably not a good place to be. So it really has to be the *opposite* of innate, to run the opposite direction to the reductionist programme towards a universe that is to some small degree 'open'. So I suggest that if we use 'emergent', it should be used to mean 'unpredictable' or 'unexpected' *in the most extreme sense*. Think of the odds against life existing *just prior* to it actualy occuring for the first time, when everything else in the universe was dead matter. That's what I think we should mean when we talk about an 'emergent' property - something nobody could have known before it happened. At any rate, I think it would be more useful in avoiding determinism to think of it that way.

>Aside, if consciousness is truly basic, then I think it’d be a misnomer to call it emergent.

Exactly. It does not seem to be 'basic' to the universe - quite the opposite!

- Daniel

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Friday, July 15, 2005 - 9:54pmSanction this postReply
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Daniel,

Ah, but if you noticed I soon changed my story. When in doubt, argue both sides. It's the first step towards infallibility.

Sarah

P.S. Really, I've got no clue about this. Which is why I said I guessed.

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Saturday, July 16, 2005 - 5:58amSanction this postReply
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I'm big-time devoted to emergent properties in my metaphysics.

On one of my Australian adventures I was traveling between Melbourne and Adelade and I met a Kiwi Buddhist and his wife. Over home-brew beer we got to talking about Tesla, electronics and then philosophy- where I learnt about what they call a kernel. A kernal is an initial idea which, through contemplation, unfolds into various insights which in turn unfold and unfold and unfold. The Buddhists are essentially ripping off Descartes' own Meditations.

The next day I decide to give this thing a try and start on the most famous kernal, that everybody has heard of- What is the sound of one hand clapping?

Looking past the Bart Simpson answer (if you know it), it seems clear that a clap is an emergent property of one hand just as sure as an oak tree is emergent from an acorn. Only a second hand can make the potential sound emerge into an actual sound. In the prose of the kernal we have a silent 'sound', but by a more familiar prose this is expressed as 'emergent property'. Hence what are the emergent properties of one hand clapping? ie What does one hand contribute to the clapping?

If you take that an run with it you can learn lots. Thanks Budda.

I still haven't gotten to the end of the road on this one yet. It's led me through bits of Plato, Aristotle (esp Metaphysics A), Locke (Essay Concerning Human Understanding) and fractals. When I'm finished I expect to be able to go home and finally be able to tell my friend, the Auckland CBD milkman, wheather it is possible to explain what milk tastes like to somebody who's never had it before.


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Post 12

Saturday, July 16, 2005 - 7:51amSanction this postReply
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Ever read "Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintainance" ?

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Saturday, July 16, 2005 - 1:57pmSanction this postReply
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Sarah:
>Ah, but if you noticed I soon changed my story. When in doubt, argue both sides. It's the first step towards infallibility.

Yes, and it's best if you say the opposite thing in the following sentence, or even *in the same sentence*. Then people won't be able to believe anyone so intelligent could be so blatantly contradictory, and then they will automatically assume that what you are saying is actually profound....;-)

>P.S. Really, I've got no clue about this. Which is why I said I guessed.

No-one has *any clues* on this really. It's all guesses, just better and worse ones.

- Daniel


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Saturday, July 16, 2005 - 2:08pmSanction this postReply
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Hong writes:
> when we mix terms in philosophy and science, I always get lost. I only know one set of language.

Hong has touched on an important point - that is, the approach to language in philosophy is, in my view, *far inferior* to that of science. It's one of the reasons science has progressed immensely in the last 500 years, while most philosophy is still medieval. Sadly, when people get 'lost' as a result of this, they tend to assume the error is theirs, not the philosophic method's.

- Daniel

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Saturday, July 16, 2005 - 2:20pmSanction this postReply
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Daniel,

Yes, I see, yet at the same time, I don't. :)

Excuse me while I go clap with one hand at trees that may or may not be falling in the woods.

Sarah

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Saturday, July 16, 2005 - 6:14pmSanction this postReply
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Daniel smuggles his favorite Popperian themes into the discussion... ;)

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Saturday, July 16, 2005 - 6:47pmSanction this postReply
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Laj:
>Daniel smuggles his favorite Popperian themes into the discussion... ;)

I don't know if it's 'smuggling'. It's like this: an issue pops up; I hit it; it pops up somewhere else; I hit it again. And so on. It's more like playing Whack-A-Mole...;-)

- Daniel

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Saturday, July 16, 2005 - 9:13pmSanction this postReply
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Ever read "Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintainance" ?
No, but you know I'm going to now. Better hurry before my pursuit of Logos makes me loco as it did the author.

Much obliged Robert.


Amazon review-
examines the two ways that human beings look at the world - the Classical and the Romantic. The Classical divides the motorcycle (for instance) into its components. The Romantic only sees the complete and finished motorcycle. 
He has also come to look for Phaedrus - the character he used to be as a young post graduate student. As the story and the discourse unfold on different levels, we discover that 'Phaedrus' became obsessed with the idea of reconciling these two sets of values - a quest that took him deep into philosophy and eventually to such strange paths that he stepped outside the 'Church of Reason' and was considered insane.


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Saturday, July 16, 2005 - 9:19pmSanction this postReply
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World's Shortest Philosophical Essay (on a Needlessly Overcomplicated Question)

Unless I'm mistaken about the meaning of the term, "emergent properties" is just a needlessly Latinate and pretentious way of saying something which can and ought to be stated in a simpler, Anglo-Saxon way:

Metaphysically it is often the case in reality that "the whole is greater than the sum of its parts". The properties of a whole are not the same as summing up the properties of its parts.

As an example, any chemical compound. Hydrogen + Oxygen -> Water. Sodium + Chlorine -> Table Salt.

Or a chemical reaction: Kindling + Heat + Oxygen -> Fire.

Or a building as opposed to the physical pieces of wood and concrete and metal and nuts and bolts that would exist if you took it apart.

Or a syllogism as opposed to the propositions which make it up.

So EP's exist. In fact they're everywhere. You can't walk five feet (or look inward) without tripping over one.

QED.

Case closed.

Phil

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