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Thursday, July 28, 2005 - 8:56amSanction this postReply
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Dear passionate valuers,

      Beauty is all around us.   We seek it, we love it, we create it.
                                          Beauty inspires.
            It can be found in every apspect of our lives.  It can be found within the person we love, a masterpeice of art, a sunset, a healthy athlete, a skyline.....

                           People spend millions to be able to look at an example of beauty everyday, to make themselves beautiful, to make their environment, their sanctuary beautiful.

                         What is beauty?  It is an object or person who is esthectically pleasing, proportionate, harmonius. 
                                                          Beauty, man-made, is a representation of  values.  The best of an aspect of reality.  A representation of ones highest values.    The best within us.

                            I think it is amazing that the harmony of a song or the beauty of a peice of art or person can take ones breath away........

                        How a carefully thought out story or poem, can inspire us to heights we've never imagined, or thought existed.........

              
                              Being in the beauty industry for 5 years, I've seen thousands of people pay to look their best. I've seen what kind of  people want this value for themselves.  It's an extremely selfish value, to be pampered and treated like kings and queens.
                             I've seen what getting pampered and beautiful does to a person. It reminds them of their values, and re-affirms the value they are to themselves.

    I remember a client I had once, her daughter had just died a month ago. She hadn't been out since.       
                        After I cut her hair, I gave her a complimentary makeup application, (as I do with all my clients).     When she looked at herself in the mirror, she was delighted at what she saw.  She called up her mother and invited her out to lunch.

                       I felt such a surge of pride after that.  For my work and  mostly fulfilling my values.  
                      I love man, he is fascinating in every way, psychologically and biologically.
                 I want to inspire man, show by example what is possible, bring out the best in him in some way, to have him leave thinking about something a little differently than he did before, from our conversation.

                          Beauty is a privellige reserved for those few who have the minds and hearts to look for it, and truly appreciate it.

                             I am a beautician. I am proud of my work, and the values it brings into this world.

                           So, I ask you, what does beauty mean to you?

                       ~Carrie~


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Thursday, July 28, 2005 - 8:42pmSanction this postReply
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Hi Carrie,

It is beautiful to hear from a person who loves her work.

There are many kinds of beauty. I'd go with "beauty is truth made visible." All the women I have loved, and the woman I love now, are at their most beautiful when their appearance expresses their personalities. A beautiful woman is one who knows herself and looks like it.

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Thursday, July 28, 2005 - 11:10pmSanction this postReply
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Physical beauty when applicable to humans means virtually nothing to me. I much prefer a beautiful mind to a beautiful mask.

Post 3

Friday, July 29, 2005 - 1:50amSanction this postReply
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On a rational level i find it interesting that beauty seems to require, or be, symmetry.

When, at the start of the century, physiognomy was examined - the belief that you could judge personality from facial appearance - it was attempted to reveal criminals by their appearance - Charles Galton, the eccentric cousin of Charles Darwin superimposed the faces of many criminals seeking to find the 'criminal face type'. The result, average and symmetrical as it was, was a good looking guy. People were asked to 'guess the criminal' from a bunch of mug-shots and always chose the asymmetrical faces to be criminal. And while physiognomy is rubbish, it's not completely wrong, we are less likely to achieve success if we are asymmetrical, hence more likely to become criminal.

The single feature that matters time and again in animal studies is symmetry. Insects, birds, and mammals prefer a mate with symmetry and balance.

One genetic characteristic that symmetry reveals is genetic diversity. The more heterozygous the individual, the more facial symmetry is observed. The ability to successfully resist or withstand various environmental traumas or parasitic infection. A heterozygous individual has a wider range of genetic potential to resist parasitic invaders--to produce proteins that are unfamiliar to infectious organisms. Pathogens are least resistant to rare alleles.

Women with very symmetrical partners were more than twice as likely to climax during sexual intercourse. When asked by British researchers to select a 'good looking' face, from a diverse collection, whites, Asians and Latinos from 13 countries, made identical choices. Even infants have a sense of what is attractive: 3- and 6-month-old infants will gaze longer at an attractive - symmetrical - face that one the is not attractive. Regardless of nationality, age, or ethnic background, people share a sense of attractiveness.

Our brain has developed to look for symmetry on other levels as well - we have our two eyes, seeking near identical images in order to create one image, we seek to combine things that are alike. The recognition of similarities in otherwise unrelated things is what allows us to abstract.

Even Brandon accepts to seek beauty, to place less value on the facial beauty could be an attempt to seek symmetry as a couple, but beauty of the mind is beauty all the same. And my guess is - correct me if i'm wrong Brandon - that you seek facial beauty as well, maybe not standard beauty of 2005, but you would not be as likely to fall for a lady you thought ugly - it would take an extremely beautiful mind at least. Personally i find the anorectic supermodels to be a direct turn-off, but i do look for physical beauty nonetheless.

Einstein worked hard to keep his equations aesthetically pleasing, quantum-mechanics seeks symmetry, even super-symmetry, the music of bach as an extreme example of the general symmetry we can find in most music. The symmetry in architecture - even the rococo had it's twisted symmetry. We have symmetry in poems, and in the structure of well written books, in trees and flowers.

While we seem obsessed by the clean symmetry of the circle, it is as challenging as a four-piece-puzzle, it is pleasing, but not fulfilling, we seek complex symmetry, to challenge our sense of pleasure.

Personally i place function over form, but only just. Something that works well, but looks bad, i would tend to replace with something that might work a little less well but looks better - provided it works - something that just looks good, but doesn't work has no value.

Symmetry and beauty has been important in our ability to survive, so from symmetry in genes to symmetry in art and nature, we find it rewarding because it has been proven to be rewarding.

On a rational level i find it interesting that beauty seems to require, or be, symmetry. The pleasure i feel on a subconscious level, however, does not need justification, it is right because it feels good. At the risk of making a tautological statement i find all the beauty in cozy charm.
(Edited by Søren Olin
on 7/29, 5:56am)


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Friday, July 29, 2005 - 4:00amSanction this postReply
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There are 2 things that I look for:

1. natural beauty (of which symmetry is a part)

2. how a person (in my case a girl) shapes what she has been given. Or, to say it differently: the choices she makes.


Beauty is where those two things meet each other and then how the whole thing meets with whatever it is I'm doing. It's not at all simple but when it comes together it feels simple.   


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Friday, July 29, 2005 - 5:43amSanction this postReply
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Beauty gives some clues about physical and mental health, though it hardly qualifies as a final indicator.  Clear and radiant skin, lean and toned muscles, good posture and a generally well-groomed appearance provide clues that the person in question has a respectable degree of physical health and self-esteem.  I would need to engage in a meaningful dialogue with this person to know if her spiritual beauty resonates with her physical beauty or if, in fact, she is simply a narcissist with no authentic inner self worthy of further engagement.


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Friday, July 29, 2005 - 5:52amSanction this postReply
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Welcome aboard, Carrie.

What makes beauty important to me is that perceiving it reflects of my best moments -- even when I am not having one. 

As noted, symmetry is the essential characteristic of beauty.  Symmetry exists along several axes: shape, size, color, etc.  Despite the claim by Brandon Miller that mere, gross physical beauty is unimportant, I believe that his own views on that are more complicated.  Once we have symmetry, then what?  I agree with Brandon at some level.  In other words, the world is full of "cute" women and "rugged" men, "pretty" women and "good looking" men, "attractive" women and "handsome" men, but what does any of them actually accomplish?  Genetic selection has given us a population high in symmetry, so we have to look for something else. 

That's where you come in.

What makes a person "attractive" has some other dimensions or parameters.  Colors, shades, shadows, shapes, tints, highlights, contrasts, and all of them still just visibles.  What about scent?  I think that not enough attention goes into perfume because there are not enough ways to sell it.  "Scratch and sniff" is a start, but different scents smell different based on many factors.  How it smells on a piece of paper is not how it will smell on you after an hour.  We have a depleted vocabulary for scent.  So, too, with sound.  We have beauty parlors and barber shops.  Few people take voice lessons or get their larynx massaged or whatever.  Yet, how we sound is more important than what we say. 

Still, we deal with what we have and what we have is make-up and make-over, color coordination, and skin toning. 

In fact, I believe that there is a unity of mind, body, and spirit.  People with high self esteem do look good from the inside out.  (Barbara Branden is remains eternally attractive and could "hold court" in the dating forum if she chose.)  Conversely, people who look "bad" on the outside probably have "issues" that you do not want to get involved with.  Self-esteem starts on the inside, to be sure, but it certainly is easier to feel good when you look good.  In fact, it is hard to feel bad when you look great and know it.



(By the way, I have been to Kitchener.  Back in 1999, I attended a numismatic convention there.)

(Edited by Michael E. Marotta on 7/30, 4:26am)


Post 7

Friday, July 29, 2005 - 8:50amSanction this postReply
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Carrie, beauty changes its meaning with time.
Beauty is a momentary experience to be enjoyed and lived now.
dc


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Post 8

Friday, July 29, 2005 - 2:37pmSanction this postReply
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Carrie,
What is beauty?
'Tis you, my dear.

Post 9

Friday, July 29, 2005 - 3:16pmSanction this postReply
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When old age shall this generation waste, 
Thou shalt remain, in midst of other woe 
Than ours, a friend to man, to whom thou say'st,
"Beauty is truth, truth beauty,"--that is all 
 Ye know on earth, and all ye need to know.
John Keats

I love words, words are ideas and can be beautiful both in sound and meaning.

Beauty lies in a well-written article, novel and poem.


Post 10

Saturday, July 30, 2005 - 4:43amSanction this postReply
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Carrie Walker wrote: "Beauty is all around us.   We seek it, we love it, we create it.  Beauty inspires. It can be found in every apspect of our lives.  It can be found within the person we love, a masterpeice of art, a sunset, a healthy athlete, a skyline....."

That was beautiful writing.  Thanks for posting that.  I copied, cut, and pasted it into a Word document and printed it out for my Objectivist ephemera file folders.


 


Post 11

Saturday, July 30, 2005 - 10:00amSanction this postReply
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Carrie,

I find M. Adler's 'Great Ideas' book to be a wonderful source of insight on beauty (Ch 17; How to Think about Beauty) -- though the form in which I'm about to display it ... ie. as a "laundry list" ... may, itself, lack beauty:

-beauty is not of the same order as truth and goodness

-the poet Eric Gill: Take care of truth and goodness, and beauty will take care of herself.

-beauty is dependent on truth and goodness

-look at beauty as a kind of synthesis of aspects of the true and good

-beauty is not only in the eye of the beholder

-beauty is both objective (in the object) and subjective (in or relative to our own experience)

-it is a kind of proportion between the complexity of the object and our capacity for apprehending it intuitively

-the thing we call beautiful is that thing which relative to our capacity is just difficult enough so that it requires some effort on our part to know it as an individual

-that pleasure, that pleasure of success in knowing it, having made the effort to know it, is the experience of beauty

-individuals can be trained in the experience of beauty (their tastes can be improved or cultivated)

-beauty requires unity, order, and clarity (or unity, coherence, and clarity)

-to say that something is well-made is just another way of saying that it is beautiful

-Aristotle: To be beautiful, a living creature like every whole made up of parts, must not only present a certain order in its arrangement of parts but must also be of a certain magnitude.
[break]
It must be of such a size and its parts must be so ordered and its unity so clear and its structure so apparent that as one sees it, one takes it in as a well-formed whole.

-all spectacles, even such things as prize fights or ballgames or ice skating performances, all of these things as spectacles can give men, men who see them, the experience of excellence and performance which is the experience of beauty (men can experience the beauty of beholding a thing well done)

Ed

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Post 12

Saturday, July 30, 2005 - 4:20pmSanction this postReply
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Adam,
 
         Yes, I would agree.   A truly beautful woman is proud and confident of her femininity. And when her confidence matches the character she has built for herself.
                      

I would say the same for a truly beautiful man.  He is at his best when he is confident and proud of his masculinity and passion.

                                         Yes, I do love my work!   My passion was realized when my good friend helped objectify this concept for me.

                             Betsy Speicher gave a great quote on this "Beauty is the best within us objectified."
                   Beauty represent the best within us and our values.

Brandon,

          I agree. I would much prefer a "full house" than an empty mansion.

                Although I think that a persons psychology, their confidence, passion, intelligence, rationality, shines through physically.  Their skin is healthier, their eyes shine,they walk with confidence.  They look......... alive!

Soren,

  Yes, I also saw a documentary on how adults and babies preferred symmetrical faces.

                    I'm not sure about the criminal thing though.
Why are we less likely to achieve success if we are assymetrical?  Why are we more prone to becoming criminals if we are assymetrical? 
 While people tend to be more fond of attractive people, I think this pales in comparison to the persons ambition, ablility, intellect and free will.


    LOL, Personally, I think I would be more likely to climax if my lover encompassed my highest values, I loved him, and he knew what he was doing ;)

  My theory on this is that I think we prefer symmetry because our minds work by logic, and like patterns.  (Very prelimenary!)

               I place function over form as well, but why not have the best of both worlds!


    Lance,

I agree with the two things you look for.  They are the essence of the best of "both worlds".

Luke,

  Very well said! 
     
 Michael,

    LOL, Thank you for brining this up! Great point!
  I think there is exquisite beauty to be had by each of the senses. 
                                  particularily like my olfactory sense, (favourite ultimately being sight)  I always make sure that me and my appartment are smelling wonderful at all times!

               Larynx massage, interesting concept!LOL.
  What do you mean by "how we sound is more important than what we say?"    If taken to mean literally, I would disagree.

   I have noticed that with some people who have horrible ethics or epistemology, usually have some kind of bags under their eyes, like they have been through a lot.  Kind of hard to explain without pictures, but it's a quality I've noticed.

     Hehehe, how did you enjoy Kitchener?

  Ciro,

  Beauty should most definitely be enjoyed! And celebrated!

Bob,

       *BLUSH*
   Why thank you!

Marcus,

   I very much agree with you.
  Ideas, worded in a skillfull, substantive yet simple way, can make a world of difference.
                   The beauty of certain ideas stay with me forever.  Of noble ideas. The kind of ideas that make life worth living.   And as much grandiose beauty this world and people have, they are merely supplementary to the ideas that make life worth living. 

                              And without these ideas, and values, I don't think that one could truly appreciate the beauty of the world........

Michael,

   Thank you. That is very flattering!


Ed,

     Thank you for the recommendation.

                    I really liked the preview of the book. I will check it out!




                 ~Carrie~


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Post 13

Saturday, July 30, 2005 - 7:39pmSanction this postReply
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Whoa! Carrie! Having seen your picture I'll just second what Bob Palin wrote. Wow...

I think nearly everyone has shared some wonderful insights in this thread. I would like to add my own story of an amazing experience I had last year.

 Since I still have several highly visible tattoos on my forearms and even my fingers, nearly everywhere I go people look at me like I was either just let out of prison or a looney-bin. Over the years I've gotten used to it. And in my younger, much more pissed off days as a punk-rocker I often preferred being seen that way. I would always get my own seat on a crowded bus, and most people were extra careful about giving me any shit I didn't deserve.
;-)

Anyhow, last year I had the wonderful experience of attending a reception for the artist Bryan Larsen, at the Quent Cordair fine art gallery. I can honestly say that for the first time in my adult life I was in a room filled with people (I'd say roughly 50) that were definitely part of a socio-economic strata that is much better than my own, and I did not feel one iota of unfair or undeserved judgement from a single person there. And based on the conversations I was overhearing I would estimate that at least half of the people present were Objectivists, and the rest were what I'd call very Objectivist-friendly. I was definitely the most casually dressed person there, with almost none of my tattoos covered up. I was shocked and amazed at the true spirit of benevolence that I felt in every square inch of the gallery. I had such a great time that night, and nobody made me feel the slightest bit out of place or that I didn't belong. I wasn't treated with suspicion or the usual looks of disgust that I could expect in the grocery store or some other public place. I even made a few new friends that night too!

 I guess my point is that it's nice to see people discussing the subject of beauty and really applying some sensible criteria to each of their own personal views about it. None of the Objectivists I've met seem to be the slightest bit bothered by the physical remnants of my misspent youth. Obviously beauty is more than skin deep to many Objectivists. The one's I've met didn't even seem to see my skin...



Post 14

Saturday, July 30, 2005 - 8:35pmSanction this postReply
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Marvin,

      That's a great story marvin.  It's nice to re-affirm the fact that there are still some people who aren't concrete bound.

                     The kind of beauty I speak of when I speak of it is a balance of perceptual beauty and conceptual beauty.
               Most of the art and beauty I appreciate are derived from conceptual values.

       Ever since discovering this philosophy, I have had a passionate wonder at the beauty of the world. I used to overlook so many things.
                   Now I can appreciate most things that I see and experience, and will continue to do so as I grow.

                 Thank you for the compliment.

                      ~Carrie~


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Saturday, July 30, 2005 - 9:38pmSanction this postReply
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What a lot of BS this thread is.  I have worked with many men and women who have not been in the  traditonally "beautiful" category. Many peeps have called me beautiful - I do not neccessarily agree with them  and I don't define mysef in that way. It is what is in your HEART, not what is on your HIPS. As a Beautician you enforce  the stereotypes of insecure women.

What is beautiful is what is in the MIND, for men and women. One of the most beautiful men I have ever met was an unemployed, obese man who was involved with me in my role as Treasurer of The NZ Playcentre Fed a few years ago. He had a beautiful mind and I have never forgotten him.


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Sunday, July 31, 2005 - 2:55amSanction this postReply
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One of the most beautiful men I have ever met was an unemployed, obese man who was involved with me in my role as Treasurer of The NZ Playcentre Fed a few years ago. He had a beautiful mind and I have never forgotten him.



Ah, but did you date him?!?

Beauty is a notoriously wide concept. I think what Carrie means here is, "good-looking."

Edit: after re-reading Carrie's original post I take that back. Hey Carrie, what do you mean by beauty here? Without a tighter definition we will be jumping all over the place.

(Edited by Lance Moore on 7/31, 2:56am)


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Post 17

Sunday, July 31, 2005 - 6:19amSanction this postReply
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Ruth wrote: "What a lot of BS this thread is."

Well, yes, there is that... but it does make me wonder about your own carefully crafted theatrical snapshot which, make-up and all, is probably not how you look in the morning...

Ruth wrote: It is what is in your HEART, not what is on your HIPS.

Most of us would say MIND, not heart.  And it is perhaps what is not on your hips that makes you attractive...  and hips, breasts, or whatever, who knows what lurks in the minds of men? 

http://solohq.com/Spirit/Jokes/54.shtml

Ruth wrote: "As a Beautician you enforce  the stereotypes of insecure women."

And you do not?  What a classic snapshot! You look so alluring, so deep, so mysterious, so 1950s.  Generally speaking, we all project here on SOLO, as in real life, who we want to be perceived as: Lance and Landon with their axes, Ed and Ciro thinking, Luke and Rick are not alone with their bonvivant smiles, Coates as a Philosopher in Tweed, Sam in the cowboy hat -- is that a city behind him or a mountain range? 

I am not sure how strong that stereotype has continued into the modern world. It was exploded 30 years ago or more and it is one of the reasons that Atlas was successful as a novel, because it sold to young women who saw themselves as executives -- and here they all are today.  Sure, many women still follow the old norms, as do many men.  We still have churches, and wars, after all.  For all of that, when I go to the local beauty school to get my hair cut or styled, the women (and men) that I see there do not exhibit the signs of insecurity they way they used to when my Mom went to the beauty parlor. 

(Could we get a snapshot of you stepping out of the shower naked, in order to better judge the depth of your soul?)


Post 18

Sunday, July 31, 2005 - 6:38amSanction this postReply
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This is a plug for your local beauty school.

Here in central Michigan Douglas J Academy has salons in Lansing, East Lansing, and Ann Arbor.  We have been customers off and on for 20 years, back when they were just in our old neighborhood in Lansing.  The students are clever, artistic, creative, and serious and every cut is inspected (and corrected) by an instructor. 

I don't know what it is about cutters, but I have seldom found a good one in a mall and when I do, they don't stay there long.  Finding a good stylist has been a lifelong challenge for me.  I could tell a string of horror stories.  Fortunately, I have a lot of hair and it grows fast, so mistakes erase themselves and we all start all over again. 

On the other hand, barbering and beautying are often regulated at the state and local level.  You can get a really bad haircut at a government "barber college."  Trust me on that.  In some places, licensed beauticians are not allowed to cut men's hair, though licensed barbers can cut women's hair.  In Ohio, one of the benchmarks for licensing of barbers is use of a razor (left over from the old days, for sure) but I like the way the barbers in Cleveland give my cut a nice sharp edge by finishing it with a razor.  You cannot get that everywhere... or much of anywhere.

Off and on over the last few years, I have worn a flattop.  Oddly enough, the one place I could not get one was Cape Canaveral.  They lost the skill there.  The one haircut I have never been able to get is what we used to call in the 50s a "DA" or ducktail: a flattop with the sides long and combed back.  No matter how many ways I say it, no cutter every gets it right... and I'm back to letting it grow out again.


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Post 19

Sunday, July 31, 2005 - 7:24amSanction this postReply
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Ahhhh Ruth,

It sorely dissappoints me, that as a member on a forum, that advocates the love of values, you find my thread so threatening.

             This is the most malevolent post I've heard on any Objectivist forum I've been to, about any subject.  Mabye if you were to read my posts a little closer, you would read that I am not just talking about big breasts, pretty eyes, and short skirts.  I am talking about conceptual values being expressed physically.

              Yes, there are alot of people who come into my chair that have their confidence based on only what I can do for them.  They are not important.
         What's important to me is the people who recognize and have earnt greatness in themselves and want to express it.

                    Mabye next time if you don't understand what I mean, or want to clarify, you can ask me instead of attacking my work. I think it would be a good idea for you to ask questions instead of jumping to conclusions.  You don't know a thing about me.

                            So, I ask you Ruth, if beauty is not an important value to you, why do you have a gorgeous picture of a woman as your profile/user picture?? 

                               I am proud of my work, and of the values I bring into physical reality.

                                ~Carrie~


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