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Post 200

Wednesday, November 2, 2005 - 6:45amSanction this postReply
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Well Andy, you did detract.

Linz saving my life? Where in hell are you talking about?

More incoherent nonsense.

Michael



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Post 201

Wednesday, November 2, 2005 - 7:00amSanction this postReply
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"Sadly, lawsuits, too, are part of objective reality."

If there were no lawsuits, there would be no protection for:

Civil liberties
Constitutional rights
Intellectual property rights
Any property rights

There would be no objective determination of rights between reasonable men--or even unreasonable men--or at their best, between a reasonable and an unreasonable man.

Lawsuits are one of the Founding Father's greatest accomplishments. The trial by jury is a cornerstone of liberty and participatory government. Ok, another overreaction, perhaps, but it drives me nuts to hear the law maligned so. Until YOU are a litigant with a right being trampeled upon, it is easy to fall into facile postmodern world-weary criticism of American law.

Post 202

Wednesday, November 2, 2005 - 7:14amSanction this postReply
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Oh, yeah, that's clearly what Cacey meant -- abolish all lawsuits because frivolous lawsuits are too common.

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Post 203

Wednesday, November 2, 2005 - 7:23amSanction this postReply
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Scott,

I keep up with current events a little bit, and one thing that I heard floating around about a year or two ago was the introduction of a 'loser pays' system of law in the US. That is, if the plaintiff loses then he or she is responsible for some, if not all, of the costs that the defendant incurred during the trial. I think the rationale behind this is that it would make people think twice before initiating a frivolous lawsuit.

For instance, no one in their right mind -least of all Barbara Branden- would sue over the disclosure of a private email correspondence. The risk of it blowing up in her face, by having to pay Mr. Firehammer's legal fees, would be too great.

Of course, I'm pulling all of this out of my dusty memory banks (or ass) and someone else would probably know better what all this means.

Eddie

Post 204

Wednesday, November 2, 2005 - 8:40amSanction this postReply
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Mr. Valliant:

Just one question. Can you post something that isn't a snide attempt at sarcasm? Your yucky, petty sense of life is showing. Do not let your hate of the Brandens cloud your appreciation of the justice system.

I do not think Casey supports an abolition of the justice or jury system. That's why I stated in the post that I was probably overreacting. It sticks in my craw when people piss on one of the things that keeps this country free and relatively orderly. Over and over, you hear the refrain "Oh, all those terrible, frivolous lawsuits." The only ones you hear about in the media are ridiculous verdicts that represent les than one in 100,000 cases. Talk to lawyers actually practicing law and trying cases. The jury pool is poisoned with people who cannot put aside their postmodern, venom-filled distrust of anyone who has taken recourse to the Courts for justice. Juries are looking for excuses not to give money these days. The system eliminates 'frivolous' lawsuits all on its own, through economics in a contingency case, and through summary judgment motions and motions to dismiss.

Scott

Post 205

Wednesday, November 2, 2005 - 8:45amSanction this postReply
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Eddie:

Many jurisdictions already do this. In Illinois, the loser pays the winner's court filing fees and other allowed costs, but not attorneys fees, except in certain types of cases.

I do not favor generally shifting attorney fees, because people need access to the Courts for them to do their job. People are terrified of getting up on that witness stand. Public speaking remains one of the things that most people are afraid of. That is enough of a barrier, imo.

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Post 206

Wednesday, November 2, 2005 - 8:57amSanction this postReply
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Scott,

Just as an aside, in Brazil, the system of the loser pays all legal fees (including justice system and attorneys) is quite common. In order for this to occur, the stipulation must be made in the complaint brief citing the specific law, otherwise each party pays his own fees. If the law had been cited, when the first defense papers are filed, this is an automatic condition.

It is a rare case where this law is not included.

In terms of holding down the number of lawsuits, this has had no impact whatsoever, as the Brazilian courts are simply swamped. That is one of the reasons Brazilian justice is so slow.

It might have some kind of impact on what kind of suits are brought, but it certainly has no impact on overall volume.

Michael


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Post 207

Wednesday, November 2, 2005 - 10:24amSanction this postReply
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Oh, Jeeze.

Scott -- Jeff had made a post that implied objective reality is the only factor in considering whether or not ARI should have included the Brandens' voices in their taped educational courses. So I reminded him that lawsuits are part of objective reality, too, and we must consider that when we are gleefully holding ARI's feet to the fire over this issue. The "sadly" was in reference to the fact that things are not always so simple as just preserving all historical records accurately as part of objective reality -- that would be nice, but it's not as easy as all that when there is such a thing as litigation out there to consider. Everyone seems willing to say ARI should act as though they are "above" such considerations and take the legal risk to demonstrate their honorable intentions. But it takes two to tango in a free country -- for ARI to act unilaterally to reproduce the Brandens' voices and put them out there for sale to the public would open them up to the risk that the Brandens would sue them. OK, man? Get it? If the Brandens want their voices preserved, they could take one giant leap toward making that possible by stating up front that they waive their rights with respect to their voices being reproduced. Then ARI would not have to second guess and/or trust the Brandens blindly. Given the mutual hostility here, such trust would be foolhardy. And yet many here seem to expect ARI to do this regardless of how foolhardy it would obviously be because then ARI would be adhering to "objective reality." Come on, guys. I know this is a pet grievance against ARI, but get real. The litigiousness in this conflict is not a one-way street and pinning the whole tail on the ARI donkey is naive, at best. Hold the Brandens at least partially responsible -- all they have to do is guarantee no lawsuits. Perhaps that's too much to ask of them? Then stop asking so much of ARI in this particular regard.

Linz -- I realize this issue is non-negotiable for you, and I respect that. But the more I look at this argument against ARI, the more I see the blind partisanship is on the Branden side of the aisle even to the extent that lawsuits are considered of no consequence and ARI should take all the risk and trust the Brandens blindly. No matter what one thinks of the Brandens' trustworthiness, NO LAWYER WORTH HIS SALT WOULD ADVISE SUCH ACTION. That reality seems to be utterly invisible to those arguing against ARI here. ARI is under no obligation to sacrifice itself on the altar of the Brandens' good will, and they are further under no obligation to promote the Brandens after their much more egregious offenses against Rand. It's the Ayn Rand Institute, after all, and as Lance reminds us, Rand broke with the Brandens and died long before their dishonest books came out to cash in on her legacy. Even if Rand herself, however, even after the publication of those scurrilous books, would have wanted the Brandens to be included in these educational products, the legal issue of the Brandens would remain. Given Nathaniel Branden's eagerness to sue Rand herself, Rand's lawyer would have to preempt her wishes barring an explicit statement from the Brandens that they would not pursue legal recourse.

AND, a lawyer would object to making a public statement about it, as well -- since that very public statement could be the basis for legal action. If ARI claimed explicitly that the voices had been omitted out of fear of legal action by the Brandens, that could be construed as defamation. A lawyer would advise omitting the voices and not making any claim about the Brandens that could be actionable. Of course, this allows the Brandens to sit back and make no assurance to the contrary while enjoying the spectacle of their legally illiterate fans attacking the mysterious conspiracy of ARI to airbrush them from reality. That's why I put it to you again: why not ask the Brandens to end this charade and give their assurances in public that no legal action will be taken on their part if their voices are reproduced in these products. Why not? Then it would be very clear that ARI has other motives and it may give ARI the opportunity (and put them under some pressure at the same time) to explain their motives explicitly.

I know this might not make me look good, but that isn't my aim -- there are far easier ways to look good here at SOLO than the way I have chosen, if that was my aim. That's for sure!


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Post 208

Wednesday, November 2, 2005 - 12:16pmSanction this postReply
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Casey wrote:

If the Brandens want their voices preserved, they could take one giant leap toward making that possible by stating up front that they waive their rights with respect to their voices being reproduced.

What say you, Brandens?

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Post 209

Wednesday, November 2, 2005 - 12:26pmSanction this postReply
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What say you, Brandens?


No kidding! Lete's have this out once and for all. It's not like everyone here is a automatic Branden hater. In fact you have many defenders here. Why not join in, define some terms, and settle this so we can all move on!!!!!!!!

Ethan



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Post 210

Wednesday, November 2, 2005 - 12:46pmSanction this postReply
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It seems that Mr Valliant, and Mr Fahy, did a very good job in turning
around this forum into an anti Brandens forum.
My  sincere compliments to them for their capacity to convince so many people  that the Brandens are liers and exploiters.

What I think about you, or the Brandens,  may not be of any importance to you, besides, I am only a cook, how much could it matter to you  what I think? but I want you to know that besides all the proofs you  have  regarding the Brandens'exploitation of Rand, I will always remain on the Brandens' side, and if they deserve to go to hell, I am more than happy to burn with them in eternity.
Ciro.



(Edited by Ciro D'Agostino on 11/02, 12:53pm)


Post 211

Wednesday, November 2, 2005 - 1:06pmSanction this postReply
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Yesterday Lindsay wrote:
 

...the excising of the Brandens' voices from the tapes is petty, insane & pathetic....It's precisely this sort of behaviour...that gives ARI a bad name as religious cultists. It's blatant, Stalinist-style rewriting of history....It's time that kind of rubbish ceased....It's indefensible. It's crap.
Exactly right -- until ARI changes its ways, it has to be regarded as a fundamentally evil organization.



Post 212

Wednesday, November 2, 2005 - 1:15pmSanction this postReply
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It wasn't NB,BB,LP etc... who destroyed objectivism,it was Rand's sexual jealousy that destroyed the Objectivist movement.
Ciro
 
 


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Post 213

Wednesday, November 2, 2005 - 1:21pmSanction this postReply
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Wait a minute!

Waive rights? The Brandens waive rights? Are we talking about property rights (intellectual property) or what kind of rights?

Is Casey seriously proposing (sort of in the name of ARI, but not really) to ask the Brandens for CHARITY?

Why not a simple deal with a contract? There are all kinds of clauses that preclude litigation. To be clear, ARI thus would not be able to be sued for using their voices, but if it did not perform the contract correctly (like defaulting on payments, or if no payments are required, defaulting on any other stipulated condition), then it could be sued for nonperformance of the contract.

That is pretty standard, I thought.

What ever happened to capitalism?

I do admit that altering history by omission (air-brushing) is the easy way out. The rub will be to convince people that this is correct and perfectly rational.

Michael





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Post 214

Wednesday, November 2, 2005 - 1:46pmSanction this postReply
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Yesterday James Valliant wrote:
 
Chris [Sciabarra], If the world just consisted of folks like you and me, there would be nothing but civil discourse!
Untrue and irrelevant. If the world just consisted of those who wrote in a dry, sterile, academic, somewhat-lifeless way even tiny unexpected voice modulations would be considered unpardonable outrages. If Nature suddenly featured nothing but Bambis, in an eyeblink Evolution would create deer with slightly bigger teeth, greater aggression and strength, and a superior ability to digest meat -- in other words, wolves. And Valliant's rather lame quip implies that all those who dislike and condemn his sleazy hatchet-job on Barbara and Nathaniel Branden are somehow deficient in manners and civility. Guess again! 
 
The fact that Valliant is largely civil on SOLO -- while amazing and commendable -- doesn't mean he was civil in that transcendently dishonest and highly slanderous book of his. I wonder what Barbara and Nathaniel think of his "civility?"
 
In certain ways, few things in Objectivism are as important as understanding the truth about Ayn Rand, Barbara Branden, Nathaniel Branden, and their relationships. But Valliant's book doesn't even try. There seem to be lies, deceptions, distortions, misrepresentations, misdirections, acontextualities, omissions, insinuations, smears, and cheap-shots on every page. And all of it seems to come from a black heart with an obvious and hateful personal and 'political' agenda. All of it seems to come from a cultist hack.
 
Far more important than being "civil" is being truthful. But to actually publish the truth in a book, you first have to want to find it, and then you have to seek it out. Valliant's book gives no indication of any such desire or effort.      



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Post 215

Wednesday, November 2, 2005 - 2:21pmSanction this postReply
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Andre,
Exactly right -- until ARI changes its ways, it has to be regarded as a fundamentally evil organization.

I do not care for Peikoff, Binswanger and Schwartz but your hyperbole is over the top. None of these people is remotely evil. Some of their practices are strange, nonobjective and unscholarly but how does this translate to evil?

If they don't want to associate with us, that's fine. There's really enough room in the world for several Objectivist movements that don't acknowledge each other's existence. Furthermore, I wish them well with any success they have in exposing people to Ayn Rand.

Also, I treat ARI members and everybody else as individuals. To assume that they speak with one voice does them a grave disservice.

Jim

 


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Post 216

Wednesday, November 2, 2005 - 2:28pmSanction this postReply
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Chris has just drawn my attention to the fact that he already asked the Brandens about the tapes
(http://www.nyu.edu/projects/sciabarra/notablog/archives/000835.html#Appendix-11). Here's what Chris has written:


Appendix #11: A Postscript

I asked the Brandens about the issues surrounding the editing out of their voices on tapes still being marketed by the Ayn Rand Institute. I asked two questions:

1. Could it be that ARI and/or the Estate might have been worried that they'd have to pay a royalty to the Brandens if their voices were left on the tapes?

2. Did either of you or both of you negotiate an end to the use of your voices by Rand and her heirs in taped lecture courses?

Both Nathaniel Branden and Barbara Branden answered "No" to both questions.

Barbara added that she could not imagine why anyone would be worried about paying royalties to the Brandens and not to everyone else whose voices were left in. She said she has had no communication or negotiation whatever with anyone at ARI or with the Estate about this or any other related issue. And she states further that she did not require or suggest that ARI cease using her voice. Nathaniel confirms this with regard to his own voice.

I also asked others who were around in the early days to confirm if, in the post-1968 era, the voices of the Brandens were ever heard on marketed recordings. Apparently, some recall that the Branden voices were originally left on marketed recordings but that every mention of the Branden names was deleted. Perhaps because the voices remained recognizable, later marketed recordings deleted the voices as well and substituted a narrator's voice.

Post 217

Wednesday, November 2, 2005 - 2:29pmSanction this postReply
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"And yet many here seem to expect ARI to do this regardless of how foolhardy it would obviously be because then ARI would be adhering to "objective reality." Come on, guys."

I do not, Casey. I see your point. ARI relies on the ARI IP (both written and recorded) for operating revenue. I wonder whether ARI had anyone doing presentations which were being recorded for later sale sign some sort of use agreement. That is what typically happens. I'd be rather surprised if there were no such agreements. I always assumed that the Brandens MUST HAVE signed such things, and that redacting any contribution or comment by them was a matter of historical revision and "refusal to sanction evil." If no such agreements were signed, that's another matter, obviously. I'd like evidence on that, but like so many other issues raised in this thread, no such evidence seems likely to be forthcoming.

Post 218

Wednesday, November 2, 2005 - 2:32pmSanction this postReply
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Damn it, I HATE posts that cross--thanks for the clarification, Linz.

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Post 219

Wednesday, November 2, 2005 - 2:05pmSanction this postReply
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As a newcomer to this forum, who nevertheless has throughly read this thread, I want to commend Mr. Valliant on his book.  Like Linz, I remained skeptical before approaching the book--mostly stemming from the fact I want to see less attention paid to AR's personal life, and more to her philosophy.  However, I could not resist the temptation to hear AR's side in her own words.  Admittedly, my impression of AR's personality had been negatively discolored to a significant degree by the Brandens' books.

The book illuminated many aspects that do not bear out too well Brandens' books.  For instance, the extent to which NB concocted elaborate schemes to keep AR "off the scent", and the resulting anquish she suffered along with the painstaking psychoanalysis she went through to try and make sense of it all. 

Clearly, her emotional responses and her outlook were mischaracterized as well, particularly in regard to the age difference issue between NB and AR.  And many more things.  For this reason, although I find Mr. Bidinotto a highly intelligent man who has done some very good work, his rejection of the book sight unseen and his characterization of Mr. Valliant as a "parasite" without knowledge of personal circumstances, seems highly unjust.

As Linz pointed out, it does seem rather odd that many of the voices clamoring for acknowledgement of the Brandens' books from the ARI side and for "all the facts" to be known, many of these same people are treating this book as if there is no essential dispute to the Brandens' characterization of AR--in many cases, dismissing the book and the evidence therein without even a glance.  Strange attitude indeed.

As to the drawbacks of the books, the main one I saw was that there was some liberties taken in regard to psychoanalysis of the major players, particularly in regard to NB.  For instance, starting on page 349, there is analysis of NB being the "Power-seeking" type of social metaphysician, as opposed to the "Ambivalent" type of social metaphysician that AR was suspecting at the time.  Well, some of these may be oversimplified as there could be multiple causes.  Perhaps, some of the lying had to do with him wanting to delay the consequences, as opposed to using intellectual "coercion" as a "preferred alternative" exemplified by the "Power-seeking" type of social metaphysician.

Other parts of me also have mixed feelings about the "psychologizing" in the book, as I've been especially annoyed over the years  in regards to the "warm and fuzzy" crowd at TOC & Associates.  I've seen many of these same people "psychologize" AR as having a sadistic "glee", as being "narcissistic", as being "close-minded", and on and on and on.  Mind you, many of these people have never even met or spoken with her.  Furthermore, this is from people who claim to mold their lives around her philosophy.To hell with the anti-"psychologizers", I want them to get a taste of their own hypocritical medicine.

So to you Mr. Valliant, I thank you for robbing me of some of my illusions.  As a law student myself, it was a good lesson in making judgments where there is only partial evidence.

Best Regards,
Michael


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