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Post 260

Thursday, November 3, 2005 - 1:45pmSanction this postReply
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Uh-oh. I guess I'll have a whole thread devoted to me. Give it your best shot, Andy!

Jim


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Post 261

Thursday, November 3, 2005 - 1:58pmSanction this postReply
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MSK,
Time for the backpedal now.
I know words are elastic things for you.  However, they actually do have settled meanings.  Because I that, any intellectually honest reader of what I wrote will readily understand that this "backpedaling" attack is disingenuous.  While I mentioned your dishonesty in my post 241, I did not write about it.  Clearly the topic of that post was your use of the ad hominem fallacy, which is why I asked Brant in post 252 what he was going on about.

But thanks for your post 256 because it makes my point.  You didn't counter any of the substance of what I had to say.  Instead you took a niggling point that doesn't even rate as a gotchya to grandstand upon it with an attack upon my character.  Ad hominem once again.

Andy


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Post 262

Thursday, November 3, 2005 - 1:59pmSanction this postReply
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MSK you need to learn The gesture neapolitan language, very useful
some times. Here is lesson number one:
Ma che 'vvuo?  (by Francesca - ©)

Ma che ‘vvuò?
"What are you saying?" - the thumb joines all other fingers of the hand turned upwards and the wrist oscillates repeatedly towards the shoulder.  This gesture is addressed to a person, who talk much, but without making itself understandable  (often ironically).
"What do you want?" - Often it can be more than a question, because understands a hidden threatening tone, nearly to the a challenge launched to whom is watching you and for this reason is considered  provocatively or dangerous.








Post 263

Thursday, November 3, 2005 - 2:01pmSanction this postReply
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Give it your best shot, Andy!
You had your utility as an example of the irrationality of collective judgment, Jim, but you're not worth any further bother.

Andy


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Post 264

Thursday, November 3, 2005 - 2:02pmSanction this postReply
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MSK here is lesson number 2)
Valliant- Faye
S’hanno accucchiate!  (by Francesca - ©)
S’hanno accucchiate!

they are complotting


 To be continued

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Post 265

Thursday, November 3, 2005 - 2:54pmSanction this postReply
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Yesterday James Heaps-Nelson wrote:
 
I do not care for Peikoff, Binswanger and Schwartz but your hyperbole [i.e. calling ARI a "fundamentally evil organization"] is over the top. None of these people is remotely evil. Some of their practices are strange, nonobjective and unscholarly but how does this translate to evil?

If they don't want to associate with us, that's fine. There's really enough room in the world for several Objectivist movements that don't acknowledge each other's existence. Furthermore, I wish them well with any success they have in exposing people to Ayn Rand.

Also, I treat ARI members and everybody else as individuals. To assume that they speak with one voice does them a grave disservice.
 
 

 
I wonder if James is aware that ARI considers him "vermin" and fundamentally evil. They find him to be an "enemy" of Objectivism -- one who should be ostracized, condemned, and utterly opposed. So too all of TOC and SOLO. James's commentary above constitutes a "sanction of the victim" and an appeasement of evil.
 
When it comes to the religious branch of Objectivism, I certainly don't "wish them well" with their false and perverted versions of "reason," "philosophy," and "Objectivism." They pollute the planet with their noxious presence. They do more harm than good. They promote and advance cultism, not Randianism.
 
As for my supposedly not treating ARIans as individuals and assuming they speak with one voice: they mostly aren't individuals. And they do, pathetically, mostly speak with just one malicious, bizarre, mindless, soulless voice.
 
I base all this on long and personal experience. I can only assume that James has never actually spoken with an ARIan cult leader in private about any issue of controversy. Just one conversation with Peikoff, Binswanger, Schwartz, etc. would change his tune immensely, in my view.  

(Edited by Andre Zantonavitch on 11/03, 3:53pm)


Post 266

Thursday, November 3, 2005 - 3:31pmSanction this postReply
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Andre,

No, I have never spoken with the "Big Three" and just how am I an appeaser? Andre, I like you but the ARI folks I have spoken with have always been quite cordial. And why should I bring up topics they have a bee in their bonnet about? To what end? Their irrationality, such as it exists, is their problem, not mine. Also, when I need a refresher course on cool insults, I'll give you a call :-).

Jim


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Post 267

Thursday, November 3, 2005 - 3:38pmSanction this postReply
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Andy,

Why do you always take things like simple identification in terms of attack?

You are wrong about my dishonesty, but I am starting seriously to doubt yours.

Anyway, all this is pure attention-getting from my view. Well you got your fix.

Can we now get back to the topic of this thread?

Michael


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Post 268

Thursday, November 3, 2005 - 9:33pmSanction this postReply
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To get this thread back on track a little bit, I wanted to give an alternative analysis of the Peikoff quote.  I don't want to untangle MSK's analysis (and I'm not sure its possible), so I'll give my own take.

What Peikoff is doing here is using imagination/projection to bring two moral alternatives into the range awareness, which is perfectly valid.  Let me step back and say something about imagination first.  Take, for instance, the concept of a 'unicorn', it is formed from abstracting certain parts of reality (a horse, a horn, a lion's tail, etc.) and reintegrating, which was then used to illustrate a literary purpose.  This is perfectly valid as long as one does not treat the unicorn as a real entity, i.e. *drop the context* by which the concept of 'unicorn' was formed.

Similarly, Peikoff is using the "if I grant this premise" to isolate a classification ("preferences"), so he can bring two types of preferences within the range of awareness.  More specifically, he is isolating (1) the man who focuses on the trivial flaws of a genius versus (2) the man who focuses on the great works of a genius.  As long as one does not ~drop the context~ that man is not constrained to view facts through his "preferences" and those two preferences due not run the gamut, then his method is perfectly valid.  The fact he writes in the last sentence, "in this kind of clash", clearly indicates he has not dropped the context, but is giving his choice between this two particular attitudes he has isolated.

The difference with the unicorn is that Peikoff's purpose is not artistic (a concrete experience of one's value), but rather to isolate and identify an important virtue:   that a genius should be admired for his great works, not demeaned via petty flaws.  In regards to this sentiment, I agree wholeheartedly.

Regards,
Michael


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Post 269

Thursday, November 3, 2005 - 11:46pmSanction this postReply
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Sciabarra wrote: (post 160)

 

This was a complex tragedy that involved the poor choices and lives of four people directly and, apparently, countless numbers of people indirectly. 

 

Is this one of the “poor choices?”

 

You have no right to casual friendships, no right to vacations, no right to sex with some inferior woman!  Did you imagine that I would consent to be left on the scrap heap?  Is that what you imagined?  Is it?

            Such tirades had become commonplace.

 

Could a person make the above statements and still be an Objectivist?  Even a mere libertarian would shrink from such a claim of possession directed at another human being.  Not only does it demonstrate an intolerable right to possess another, but shows a lack of self-esteem---an other-directed life, that is left “on the scrap heap” once abandoned.

 

Nathaniel Branden wrote that Ayn Rand said the above, in Judgment Day. (page 373).  He also inferred that Rand was possibly insane (p. 372) and irrational (p. 349).  What aspect of Rand’s Objectivism did Branden leave in tact?  This was not an idle comment made about an unimportant subject, but the comment, per Branden, that Rand repeatedly made about her most important value.

 

Branden is not describing some minor faux pas, or a temporary aberration, but statements that imply Rand’s absolute rejection of virtually every principle of Objectivism.  Branden makes it clear that this wasn’t a single tirade, that however wrong, might be excused as not representative of her thinking.  This was “commonplace” he wrote. 

 

If Branden was telling the truth, Rand was worse than a hypocrite.  The above period described by Branden, was at about the same time that Introduction to Objectivist Epistomology was published.  If we believe Branden, then IOE was a fiction and Rand’s life a fraud.

 

IS THIS A MERE POOR CHOICE?:

To call this conflict “a poor choice” is evasion and denial.  Branden’s characterization of Rand, can not be attributed to a “lover’s quarrel” or a simple sexual infidelity.  If it was truly “all about sex” I wouldn’t care. 

 

Many people are Objectivists in spite of Branden, in spite of Judgment Day.  Of course a philosophy is not dependant on the personal life of the philosopher.  I assume every Solo-ist would agree----an Objectivist understands that point.  However, an expressed goal of Solo is “a war for men’s minds.”   Branden placed a deceitful obstacle in the path of this war for men’s minds, as did Barbara Branden’s book and movie.  A philosophy that can’t be lived even by it’s originator is a hard sell, for the same reason that a book, “Poems by Hitler” would not sell, no matter the merit of the poems.

 

PARC exposes Branden’s lies and uses Rand’s own Journal entries to do so.  I think Valliant makes excellent points.  But for those who don’t want to trust Valliant, then just read what Rand wrote and determine for yourself whether anything Branden said about Rand could be trusted unless independently corroborated.  Rand’s journal entries prove she was living according to her philosophy. 

 

Judgment Day was not a “poor choice.”  It was a lie.  It was a lie that not only demeaned Rand, but demeaned her about subjects that go to the very core of Rand’s philosophy.  It is not a god damned footnote!

 


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Post 270

Friday, November 4, 2005 - 2:48amSanction this postReply
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Steve,

I agree. There is no way to verify the authenticity of these quotes Branden gives of Rand. Also, the fact that he asks us to rely on the internal consistency of the narrative, then makes substantial changes from edition to edition makes it all the more ridiculous.

Jim

(Edited by James Heaps-Nelson on 11/04, 8:06am)


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Post 271

Friday, November 4, 2005 - 8:04amSanction this postReply
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Only the internal logic of my narrative can assure the reader that I am reliable in reporting on the intimate aspects of our story.

Nathaniel Branden wrote the above in the Author's Note to Judgment Day.

To James Heaps-Nelson at Post 270,

James,

Was PARC any assistance to you in recognizing the internal inconsistencies in Judgment Day, or were they obvious to you before that?

In my case I had only read some parts of Judgment Day, and BB's Passion.  Like so many on this thread it was Rand's philosophy I loved, and I had no desire to worship its creator.  Besides, who would want to know much about the Rand that the Brandens described in their works?   Yes, they said she was brilliant and creative, and then they followed up with "factual" incidents in which Rand completely abandoned the basic principles at the root of her own philosophy.  [It is also inescapably true that Rand found great virtue in both of the Brandens for a prolonged period of time.]

MY OWN EVASION:
I would wonder how the creator of Objectivism be such a total hypocrite, but then I would shrug, and move on.  I would tell myself it is the philosophy, not the philosopher that I loved.  Of course that is a correct premise.  However, now I see that this rational premise, was used as a form of evasion. I don't worship Rand, but post-PARC I have a greater respect for her virtue, as a person who lived her philosophy.


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Post 272

Friday, November 4, 2005 - 8:08amSanction this postReply
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Could a person make the above statements and still be an Objectivist?
 
Well, she did, and she created Objectivism, so I suppose that answer would be a yes, would it not?

Interesting that we consider judging the person that taught us how to judge, no?

I don't see what is so suprising about the possibility that she said something like this. She was human, and she was hurting. Was she suppose to respond as masterfully as she did when she wrote her real works?  It doesn't matter where the hurt came from, where the point of origin was, which was surely her, on the surface, since it seems pretty clear that she suggested the sanctioned affair as a solution. She is the one that ran it up the pole. Do we blame her for that, too? It was, yes, bad judgment. I think so- I don't believe that even the most elevated of humans are teflon to a solution like that. It is engineered failure. If you don't believe that, put the same scenario into your own life, look at yourself, the people that might be a part of it, and see what you think would happen to everyone. It was a mistake. All parties involved made mistakes, and this is nothing new, I don't care who they were to the rest of the world.

In the end, it doesn't matter. Henry Ford said "Don't fix the blame, fix the problem." Yet, so many remain fixated. What is the search for?

We sit and chop logic over the reactions of people that were suffering inside of a cage of their own design. We pick over and attempt to verify "evidence". Some try to illuminate or re-introduce everything under a new perspective. Why? What level of perfection were we expecting? Could we apply that standard to ourselves, honestly? I don't think so. They were human beings, and they made mistakes. Do we judge Mozart's music by how we think he might have lived day-to-day?

Hypocrite? Who are we to say this? Who died and made us Elvis? Ayn Rand? I don't think so.

(Edited by Rich Engle on 11/04, 8:11am)


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Post 273

Friday, November 4, 2005 - 8:20amSanction this postReply
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Steve,

I try to be economical in what I read given my busy schedule. I have not read PARC (although I will at some point). I also did not have time to comb through the second edition of Judgment Day. However, Bryan Register wrote up an almost line by line description of the differences when the second edition came out in 1999 in Liberty magazine. Things like concluding Barbara had an affair that she never had etc. were among the changes. At best it shows extreme sloppiness in getting the facts straight.

Jim


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Post 274

Friday, November 4, 2005 - 9:35amSanction this postReply
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Rich Engle writes:

Could a person make the above statements and still be an Objectivist?
 
Well, she did, and she created Objectivism, so I suppose that answer would be a yes, would it not?

No.  The answer would be “no.”  No person, including Rand, can assert that another person has no rights, and be an Objectivist.  That is also true of a person of such low self-esteem that they feel they would be left on a “scrap heap” when dumped.

 

Someone might excuse such thoughts as a temporary aberration, or giving in to the whim of the moment, or a mistake in facts or logic.  But that excuse could not apply to “commonplace” statements regarding that person’s avowed highest values.

 

The best I could say is such a person might later return to the philosophy of objectivism.

 

****

As to your comment on Rand suggesting a "sanctioned affair" ---I'm not sure I understand your point.  I don't care how many sexual experiences any of them had.  I don't blame anyone for a "sanctioned affair."  I care very little about even the unsanctioned ones.

 

It is not Branden’s self-admitted fact that he began the affair with Patrecia, by telling her to lie to her husband, and then lying to Barbara and Rand.  If someone asked me, I would say it was immoral, but not of great interest to me personally.  Nor do I care that Branden had no sexual desire for Rand----in fact, I share that opinion with him.

 

Judgment Day describes a "Rand" who was in denial about reality, consistently over a long period of time.  That is no small faux pas to an Objectivist.  Branden's Rand was a jealous, possessive bitch, an irrational tyrant, who was a consistent, purposeful hypocrite. 

 

Ayn's own journal entries are totally inconsistent with the picture painted by Branden.  Those entries also verify your statement that they were in pain.

 

****

Hypocrite? Who are we to say this?

Isn't that the same as asking, "who are we to judge?"   My answer to either question, is "I am."  And so are you, or anyone else.  In Rand's words, "no moral neutrality is possible." 

 

Obviously Branden agrees it is fair to judge, if the title of his 436 page book means anything.  Branden spent a good many of those pages describing a Rand who abandoned virtually every aspect of Objectivism.  I believe he lied. I believe he lied about issues that go to the heart of Objectivism.  I believe that is important. 

 

I am defending Rand's virtue, not her perfection.  I think Rand had faults, including some of her statements regarding homosexuals. 

 

I agree with your comments about Mozart. 

 

 



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Post 275

Friday, November 4, 2005 - 11:16amSanction this postReply
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Michael M,

Just a point or two on your post about the Peikoff quote:

1. You wrote "I don't want to untangle MSK's analysis (and I'm not sure its possible)..."
For the record, it isn't possible (and still be correct). My analysis is based on Rand's own classifications of cognitive/normative. I only mention this because the way you put it sounds like I might be engaged in a rationalization. I am not. My logic is solid.

2. Of course Peikoff did not say that there was no spectrum between the two poles he postulated. He also did not say that one existed either. So you have to take the full context of his speech to understand what he was saying, not just that quote. Then you will see that he had made several derogatory references to those who were writing memoirs. He also set up the muckraking/hero-worshiping dichotomy so strongly earlier that he implied that he considered there to be no other alternative. Thus my conclusion (that he transposed esthetics onto history) took that into account.

3. I couldn't agree with you more when you write, "a genius should be admired for his great works, not demeaned via petty flaws." That is the way I do admire Ayn Rand. She had one hell of a first-class mind and wonderful achievements that she generated out of it. I especially admire how she overcame internal conflicts and went on to produce what she did. Most people buckle under. Where I try to keep another focus, however, is when we talk about historical accuracy, not admiration.

In this respect (the cognitive one, not the normative), I am grateful to those who run counter to imprecision of facts. That does not mean that I have to accept their normative postulations, though.

My reason for posting the Peikoff thing was to try to trace where the widely-held idea from that side originated that whitewashing history is a GOOD THING.

Whitewashing history is always a BAD THING.

It is interesting to find out why this is not believed by intelligent people.

Michael


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Post 276

Friday, November 4, 2005 - 1:31pmSanction this postReply
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No.  The answer would be “no.”  No person, including Rand, can assert that another person has no rights, and be an Objectivist.  That is also true of a person of such low self-esteem that they feel they would be left on a “scrap heap” when dumped.
 
Yet later on you go on to say that you are defending AR's virtue. Hmm. Doesn't look like you're doing her any favors. May I point out that if you are here, and are saying you can determine who is or who is not an Objectivist (mind you, I currently see no required membership criteria, but I can imagine Leonard issuing that some day), that you learned that from somewhere, and I think that was Miss Rand.

Maybe you confuse the words any person uses when they are hurt emotionally vs. when they are not. Don't you agree that even Ayn Rand, being human, might put her heart on her sleeve? Or do you expect what you expect from the image of her you might have? Separate myth from human, maybe...

Maybe you are being emotionally dishonest to yourself, to talk in modified O-speak. You're here, and if I get you right, you act as judge and jury for Ayn Rand herself, based on her own writing. Not suprising.





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Post 277

Friday, November 4, 2005 - 3:06pmSanction this postReply
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Steve,

One thing I hope you don't do from this is conclude N. Branden didn't have anything worthwhile to say. That would be a double tragedy. Having read most of his books, I liked the Six Pillars of Self Esteem and the Psychology of Romantic Love. Both of these books are like good owners' manuals for the psyche.

My thoughts are that Nathaniel Branden is a conflicted man. I think that during his time in Objectivism what he wanted most was to have a private life. Now I think there is a theatrical aspect to him I don't quite understand and with regard to Ayn Rand I don't believe he's able to be objective. And I think that he sincerely wanted to set some issues straight with the second edition of Judgment Day, but for me the whole thing still reads like a National Enquirer expose.

Jim 


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Post 278

Friday, November 4, 2005 - 3:46pmSanction this postReply
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To Rich Engle re post 276

Let me attempt to be clearer.  I'll attempt to respond to your several points.

I distrust the quote from Judgment Day; the one in post 269.  I doubt that Rand actually said any such thing.  One of the reasons I distrust the quote is that it is entirely inconsistent with everything that Rand wrote and with her entire sense of life.  It is also inconsistent with her private journal entries.

When I said, 
No person, including Rand, can assert that another person has no rights, and be an Objectivist.  That is also true of a person of such low self-esteem that they feel they would be left on a “scrap heap” when dumped.
I meant that both of those thoughts are entirely inconsistent with Objectivist philosophy.  Certainly, Rand would know that better than anyone, and therefore it is difficult to believe she said it, unless there was a credible source for her statement.  Branden is not a credible source.

I defend Rand's virtue for my own sake, not hers. I'm not attempting to do her any favors. If Rand was the person that Branden described in Judgment Day, then she was monstrously wrong.  Still she had the greatest philosophy in all mankind.

Yes, I do owe a debt to Rand and her philosophy.  I learned a great deal from her and I am still engaged in that process.  Whether or not Rand is the jealous, irrational, possessive bitch in denial of reality that Branden described, or whether she lived consistently with her philosophy, I owe her a great debt.  I find her philosophy itself to be a great virtue.

You asked,
Don't you agree that even Ayn Rand, being human, might put her heart on her sleeve?
I agree that most human beings have at least some moments in which they speak without thinking, or chose not to think at all. Even the most moral person can give in to a temporary whim or simply be tired or lazy. [It would still be immoral per se, but would not provide much insight into that person's morality.]  An emotional outburst can be such an event. If such an event occurs when the topic is something unimportant, it may even pass unnoticed.  If the statement relates to a subject that is very important to the speaker, and relates to the speaker's self-chosen highest values, then it can't conceivably go unnoticed and the mistake should be corrected.

If Branden had wrote that Rand made the above statement, but later apologized or later corrected herself, that would be different.  It would still be wrong, but might be a temporary aberration or thoughtless moment.  However, Branden made it clear that such "tirades were commonplace."  That is, it was not an ill-considered one time event.  Further, I just pulled out one quote of many similar quotes that Branden attributed to Rand, in the same part of his book in which he describes Rand as irrational and denying reality.  I could provide more examples, but the Passion of Ayn Rand's Critics, already did that.

I'm not sure what you mean by "wearing her emotions on her sleeve."  I've certainly heard that phrase before, but I've never had it clearly defined.  If by that you mean that she was emotionally open and vulnerable, and paid great attention to how she felt, then yes, I think she was.  If you mean that she reacted emotionally without thought or reflection or any consideration of her values or long term selfish interest, then I would say no, she wasn't.  Rand clearly rejected any dualism.

As to sitting as "judge and jury" I am again unclear as to what you mean.  If you are asking whether I judge a person based on what they write, then I would say yes, that I do that very thing.  I would never sit as a jury as I am only one person, not twelve.  Both judges and juries decide what facts have been proven and how the law (in this case ethics) applies.   So if that is what you mean, then yes, I decide what the facts are and then make a judgment. 


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Post 279

Friday, November 4, 2005 - 4:18pmSanction this postReply
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James,

Thank you for your thoughts.

I have said numerous times, in posts you have no reason to be aware of, that it is an undeniable fact that Rand, found great virtue in both the Brandens.  Rand also approved of many of Branden's articles and lectures.  She dedicated Atlas Shrugged to him.

I do not reject everything he says, I just don't find him a reliable source for what Rand said, for the reasons I previously stated.   

I do not criticize Branden for falling in love with Patrecia or for breaking up with Rand.  I do criticize the prolonged dishonesty.  However, I would have no reason to even mention that, if Branden had not sought to undermine the truth about Rand in Judgment Day. 

When you read PARC, you may find greater affinity with my opinion.  Before PARC, I just basically accepted and then ignored the whole affair-break-up thing and just attempted to understand her philosophy and apply it in my life.  I now think I did a great injustice to Rand.


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