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Post 280

Friday, November 4, 2005 - 5:25pmSanction this postReply
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Steve,

I have one question regarding what a person writes to himself/herself in papers like what Rand did.

If this kind of writing is to be presumed irrefutable evidence of Rand's complete thoughts on the issue, I would presume that she also would write about her occasional short temper and other lapses.

After all, these were witnessed by many people, yet she did not write about them to my knowledge (she may have, but I am still reading some of her correspondence and journals - and finishing her entries in PARC).

So the fact that she did not write about something possibly negative about herself is not necessarily proof that it did not exist.

In this vein, take any of the "accusations." Insane jealousy, for instance. Would Rand write to herself that she was insanely jealous? Somehow I doubt it. (Would she even admit it to herself, if it were true?) I'm not saying that she was. I just don't think that her writing about other issues is proof of lack of something else.

Yet it is being heralded as such.

btw - I finally received a copy again of The Passion of Ayn Rand. I checked (quickly, I admit) the pertinent events related as covered by Valliant. I found them to be almost identical - the sessions, the papers written, the suppositions, the time frames - the whole deal. It's all there. Not with the same focus, but it's there.

Also Barbara's admiration for Rand is quite an inspiration to read. I might even quote some of the wonderful things she wrote about Rand as we go along. I had forgotten what a magnificent work this was. (I mean it.)

Michael


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Post 281

Friday, November 4, 2005 - 7:51pmSanction this postReply
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Michael,

One thing I really like about you is your decency. Barbara really didn't deserve the trashing she's received on this site of late. Several false friends turned on her, but you've remained steadfast. I disagree with you about her book, but we've talked about that already. I got a chance to meet her at a TOC conference in Vermont and she's a really terrific person.

Jim


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Post 282

Friday, November 4, 2005 - 8:07pmSanction this postReply
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MSK:

So the fact that she did not write about something possibly negative about herself is not necessarily proof that it did not exist. In this vein, take any of the "accusations." Insane jealousy, for instance. Would Rand write to herself that she was insanely jealous? Somehow I doubt it. (Would she even admit it to herself, if it were true?) I'm not saying that she was. I just don't think that her writing about other issues is proof of lack of something else.

Hmmmm. Let's try this:

The fact that she was a serial killer and a shoplifter, for instance. The fact that she didn't write about it doesn't mean that she wasn't. I'm not saying that she was. I just don't think that her writing about other issues is proof of lack of something else.

Gimme a break!

Michael, bone up on the arbitrary.

Linz



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Post 283

Friday, November 4, 2005 - 8:37pmSanction this postReply
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Lindsay,

Michael was saying that there was a mismatch between Rand's behavior as observed by others and what she recorded in her journals and the journals therefore are incomplete evidence. How is that arbitrary?

Jim


Post 284

Friday, November 4, 2005 - 8:53pmSanction this postReply
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Michael,

The next thing you know people will be saying that the Ominous Parallels by Leonard Peikoff must be a great book because Ayn Rand endorsed it   :-).

Jim


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Post 285

Friday, November 4, 2005 - 9:09pmSanction this postReply
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One of the "others," Jim, being a proven smear-merchant, as I know only too well from direct experience.

It won't do for anyone simply to assert something in order for it to have epistemological respectability. There must be evidence if the assertion is to move beyond being merely arbitrary. "Insanely jealous," for instance, is not backed up by evidence, & is contradicted by what Rand wrote in her journals.

More broadly, stating that although Rand didn't discuss a particular assertion about her in her journals the assertion could still be true doesn't cut it either. The onus of proof is on the positer.

I highly recommend that you read PARC, Jim. And note that most of its critics here have made no serious attempt to argue its content but rather, whether Jim Valliant is an ARI stooge, etc..

It should be obvious to anyone that I'm not a blind Rand-worshipper who claims she was "perfect." She didn't judge herself that way, & I don't judge her that way either (nor do I judge anyone, myself included, that way). The words "We acknowledge that Ayn Rand made mistakes" are written into the Credo, for goodness' sake. But PARC makes it clear that she was innocent of several flaws the Brandens attribute to her. It also makes starkly clear the full extent of their rotten, manipulative deceit of her. It's no wonder they've gone into hiding.

Linz



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Post 286

Friday, November 4, 2005 - 9:48pmSanction this postReply
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Fair enough, Lindsay. What Barbara did to you was wrong and I am certainly not a defender of either of the Brandens' biographies. And I do think Rand's journal entries should be considered (and I will read PARC). But I have to laugh at the notion of someone trying to piece together my personality from some of my journal entries :-).

When I do read PARC, I think I'll just be more convinced about how kooky the whole situation was. Rand trying to play psychoanalyst LOL. If only I had listened to more Rachmaninoff as a kid things would be so much better.

Valliant is certainly persuasive though, he almost had me convinced Leonard Peikoff really had Reisman's best interests at heart when he gave him the old heave ho. I'll tell you what, when our good friend Doctor Diabolical gets to see Rand's journals, then they might really be evidence.

Jim


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Post 287

Friday, November 4, 2005 - 10:58pmSanction this postReply
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Linz,

To be absolutely precise, you wrote:
"Insanely jealous," for instance, is not backed up by evidence, & is contradicted by what Rand wrote in her journals.
How can something be contradicted without proof?

If you say "not substantiated" or "not supported," OK.

But contradicted?

That was the point of my observation. That is, unless the standards for proof have become so lopsided in this debate that any old pronouncement at all (or even a lack of pronouncement by Rand) is now considered as "proof" of contradiction. (I'm still thinking about that painting by booz bottle routine flatly contradicting... well whatever... we all have our standards...)

btw - I agree that the burden of proof lies on the accuser.

It will be interesting to look at that proof also, in light of the more than 200 people who personally knew Rand and where interviewed for PAR. I have a million questions all of a sudden. (As I said, I just got the book today and these things are starting to jump out at me.)

Anybody interested in truth, or is the game merely to sell the Valliant version? (Or the Branden version?)

Well I am interested in the truth.

Michael

(Edited by Michael Stuart Kelly on 11/04, 11:07pm)


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Post 288

Friday, November 4, 2005 - 11:02pmSanction this postReply
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As far back as 1934, Rand wrote in her journal,

“The human race has only two unlimited capacities: for suffering and for lying.”  …… “That the worst curse on mankind is the ability to consider ideals as something quite abstract and detached from one’s everyday life.”  (Journals of Ayn Rand, page 66)

 

MSK,  (reply to your post 280):

 

You said you had one question, which I believe was,

 

Would Rand write to herself that she was insanely jealous?

 

I’m afraid my answer will not include anything you don’t already know. 

 

I believe that Rand acted consistently with her philosophy.  Rand would not write she was jealous, for the same reason she would not say she was jealous.  Because it was not true.  However, if she did feel jealousy, she would have immediately recognized it as inconsistent with every thing she believed and then examined her premises.  I don’t think that Rand could ignore such an emotion. 

 

Nothing about Rand would be consistent with her thinking that what she had just published in IOE were mere abstractions without relevance in her personal life.  Many people, perhaps most people, are capable of great unrecognized evasions and self-deceptions; they could be jealous and ignore it or pretend to themselves they had no such emotion.  However, Rand’s fiction and philosophy directly addressed jealousy.  She could only do such a thing as an intentional conscious evasion.  Rand’s journal entries in PARC show that she was clearly and consistently accessing her relationship with Branden and there were no signs of denial.

 

Rand left behind a huge body of work that expressed a consistent philosophy.  Rand’s personal notes are consistent with that philosophy, in particular the journal entries in PARC.  Rand claimed to live in accord with her philosophy; she wrote, “And I mean it.” 

 

The facts known publicly provide strong convincing proof of the truth of that statement.  I have read only some of Sciabarra’s works, but I believe he corroborates Rand’s statements regarding her history.  Rand appears to be an extremely honest person, who held truth as her highest value.  So yes, I believe her until contrary evidence would call that issue into question.

 

The Brandens did so.  As I agree with a prior statement of yours that it is unfair to lump Barbara and Nathaniel together, I will say that each of them wrote separately that Rand was jealous, possessive and dictatorial.  Those qualities are such total contradictions of  Objectivist values, it would necessary follow that Rand was a hypocrite.

 

As a personal choice, I formerly fell in to that group of people that “follow the philosophy not the philosopher” and thought that like many great thinkers, that Rand’s personal life may have fallen far short of her philosophy. 

 

That was extremely disappointing as Rand’s major step forward was that there was no theory practice dichotomy.  Most other great thinkers and artists saw no real problem if their abstract values were not practiced in the “real world.”

 

PARC was an absolute revelation to me.  Valliant’s work undermining the Branden’s credibility was significant.  But Rand’s own words proved that she was not at all in denial and was not only practicing her philosophy in a totally consistent way, but was using her principles to expose Branden’s fraud----not the fraud of the affair, but the fraud that he was living an other-directed life, that he had drifted and lost sight of his highest values. 

 

By Branden’s own admissions he had abandoned truth.  Patrecia was his then perceived highest value, but he was limiting his affair with her and denying its existence, so that he could continue to lie to Rand in order “to protect” Rand.  Perhaps if he were Catholic, he could be sainted for such conduct.  However, to betray one’s own highest values for the sake of another is not an Objectivist value.  Nor is the belief that a prolonged series of lies will somehow improve anyone’s life.

 

So to counter Rand’s assertion of “and I mean it.”  We have the personal recollections of the Brandens.  N. Branden admits to extensive, prolonged and elaborate lies, on the very subject of his relationship with Rand.  It was Branden who claims to have put the altruist value of Rand’s well being over his own self-interest.   It was Branden who asserted his lies were necessary to protect others.  It was Branden who acted in accord with achieving his perceived highest values through dishonesty. 

 

When I find that someone has admitted numerous lies on the very subject in controversy, made internally inconsistent statements about the subject in controversy and who openly admits that he used lies for the good of others, while suppressing his own highest values, who believed someone could benefit from being lied to and not facting the truth, and whose actions were consistent with those immoral beliefs over several years, I think it is rational to distrust anything that person says.

 

Therefore, I believe Rand over Branden. 

 

I do not think Rand was always correct.  As examples I think Rand was wrong about gays, and was an idiot to smoke. 


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Post 289

Friday, November 4, 2005 - 11:27pmSanction this postReply
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Just for the record, so that people don't think that Barbara's bio was the smear job that is being painted, here's a nice quote about how Ayn dealt with Nathaniel and Barbara's marital difficulties. Her book is full of these things. (Page 333)
For several months, Ayn met with Nathaniel and me to discuss the conflicts that divided us, exhibiting a kindness, a generosity, a tenderness that had long seemed absent from her personality. Despite her desire for Nathaniel, despite her hectic professional schedule of public appearances and writing, she devoted priceless hours to the effort to understand and resolve the problems destroying the marriage of the man she loved. She blamed neither of us; there was no hint of moralism in her attitude or her conversation, only a deep loving desire for our happiness.
Pure smear job, right?

(The qualities she mentioned that were previously "absent" in Rand's personality were due to her depression following the writing of Atlas Shrugged.)

Michael


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Post 290

Saturday, November 5, 2005 - 6:49amSanction this postReply
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BTW,

Here is an article by David Gordon on Peikoff's The Ominous Parallels.

http://www.lewrockwell.com/gordon/gordon13.html

I believe the question of whether Objectivists have ever been unfair to their opponents started this thread.


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Post 291

Saturday, November 5, 2005 - 9:08amSanction this postReply
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Linz,

I have just bought PARC and I plan to go through it leisurely over the next several months. Scanning over the book, one thing troubles me immediately. How many people did James Valliant interview for this book? Any good DA or police detective would convass as many people as possible to seek out all possible witnesses. Incidentally, this is one of the huge problems with Judgment Day. No interviews.

Jim


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Post 292

Saturday, November 5, 2005 - 1:11pmSanction this postReply
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Jim–good on you for getting the book. Too many folk are flying blind on this, and the concerted campaign to paint the author as not credible because of alleged ARI affiliations has brought no credit to those who waged it. I'll be fascinated to know your conclusions.

Linz

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Post 293

Saturday, November 5, 2005 - 1:58pmSanction this postReply
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Jim,

In Part I, Valliant examines all the evidence that is available to anyone out there including the Brandens' own works. That is sufficient to find the Brandens' accounts are not credible. Part II, of course, reveals Rand's never-before-seen contemporaneous account of the Brandens.

He's not retrying the case -- he's looking at the case as it stands and as it has been throughout all the years that it was considered credible by many scholars and opponents of Rand -- and that is sufficient to reach his conclusions (as embarrassing as it might be to those scholars and opponents who relied on the same body of evidence).

The heretofore unheard testimony of Rand confirms and amplifies the conclusions he made based on the available evidence -- and then some.


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Post 294

Saturday, November 5, 2005 - 2:33pmSanction this postReply
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Jim,

I wholeheartedly endorse reading the book. The most proper thing in the world is using your own mind based on your own observations.

Michael

(Edited by Michael Stuart Kelly on 11/05, 2:40pm)


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Post 295

Saturday, November 5, 2005 - 6:16pmSanction this postReply
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Linz,

Why would ARI affiliations bother me? My  college philosophy professor was ARI. Besides when they cover up, it's so transparent it only makes them look bad.

By the way, I went back home and dug out my old philosophy syllabus for the first time in years. It turns out the standard ARI and TOC determinism is self-defeating argument comes from a philosophy professor named James Jordan. Interesting, it's almost the same exact argument Will Thomas made in one of his Navigator articles.

Darryl Wright also included a selection from William James on free will and mental focus. I'll bring this stuff to the next SOLOC if my schedule allows.

Jim


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Post 296

Saturday, November 5, 2005 - 6:35pmSanction this postReply
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Casey,

I'll reserve further comment until after I read the book. However, the case would certainly be made stronger if it could be corroborated by testimony from other sources. There are non-affiliated people such as  Allan and Joan Blumenthal and many others who could confirm or cast doubt on Rand's journal entries if interviewed.

Jim


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Post 297

Saturday, November 5, 2005 - 10:18pmSanction this postReply
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James Heaps-Nelson wrote:
I went back home and dug out my old philosophy syllabus for the first time in years. It turns out the standard ARI and TOC determinism is self-defeating argument comes from a philosophy professor named James Jordan. Interesting, it's almost the same exact argument Will Thomas made in one of his Navigator articles.
The original "determinism as self-defeating" argument, of course, was given by Nathaniel Branden in "The Contradiction of Determinism," originally published in the early 1960s in The Objectivist Newsletter and reprinted as a section in his 1969 book, The Psychology of Self-Esteem.

However, the argument has deeper roots than Christian philosopher, James Jordan. In fact, it is straight out of Kant (something they don't tell you at either ARI or TOC!). Here is a helpful reference:
Henry Allison, "Kant's Refutation of Materialism," The Monist 79 (April 1989) 190-209.
By the way, SOLO's own Bill Dwyer wrote a magnificent refutation of Branden's essay back in the early 1970s. It was entitled "The Contradiction of 'The Contradiction of Determinism' ", and it was published by editor John Hospers in The Personalist. It is well worth checking out, whether you are a staunch free willist or a compatibilist.

REB


Post 298

Sunday, November 6, 2005 - 1:05amSanction this postReply
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Roger,

Thanks for the reference! Psychology of Self Esteem is one of the few Branden books I haven't read all the way through and I had not read that particular TON article by Branden either.

Jim


Post 299

Sunday, November 6, 2005 - 10:14amSanction this postReply
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Post deleted for being pages out of date.

(Edited by Fraser Stephen-Smith on 11/06, 11:33am)


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