| | I am the owner of the channel where this discussion took place, #Objectivist on the DALnet IRC network. The conversation has been taken out of context and misunderstood by Jason. What smathy was appalled at was not that Jason liked London (a statement which smathy made twice and Jason conveniently forgot to mention), but that he could not explain his own emotions. (The time stamps are Pacific time).
First off, Jason has mispresented a fact that he knew: smathy is not an Objectivist.
[21:57] <@smathy> How long have you been an Objectivist for?
[21:57] <Jason997> 3, 4 years?
[21:58] <Jason997> what about you?
[21:58] <@smathy> I'm not (yet) an Objectivist.
[21:58] <Jason997> I see
...
[22:04] <Jason997> And what don't you call yourself an Objectivist?
[22:05] <Jason997> what=why
[22:07] <@smathy> Not so much time related, more just achievement related. I think it's pointless to use that categorisation when I am still progressing toward that moral end. Basically there are aspects of the philosophy that I have not yet completely applied.
The conversation was not really, in fact about London. It was about evaluating a newcomer to the chat room, and determining if he could explain his own statements and feelings. In Jason's presentation of the conversation, he conveniently snipped out comments that would have shown you all this, and twisted the conversation into something completely different. Here I include a more complete version so that you may judge for yourself.
Smathy was in no way morally condemning Jason for not liking London. A statement of dislike is not a moral condemnation; only a moral condemnation is (i.e. "You are a bad person.")
[22:21] <mollyjoy> What did you like about London and Amsterdam?
[22:22] <Jason997> Well London has a certain style about it that I liked... Hard to really explain and Amsterdam is a good place to get into trouble and also has a nice feel to it.
[22:23] <Jason997> I didn't care for Italy as much
[22:23] <mollyjoy> Really! We're opposites then, I wasn't too impressed with London and I love Italy.
[22:25] <Jason997> Yeah.. people seem to like Italy... I didn't care for it as much. Neat scenery but I guess I don't care for Italian culture as much as some of the other places I visited
[22:25] * mollyjoy is trying to parse the statement "good place to get into trouble"
[22:26] <Jason997> Yeah, you don't want to know.. In fact much of what I did in Europe will have to stay there :)
[22:27] <mollyjoy> Oookay, moving right along then.
...
[22:42] * @smathy has never understood the appeal of London
[22:43] <Jason997> smathy, I suppose I like the stuffyness of london. :) I've always been fascinated by the British.
[22:43] <Jason997> How old are you guys?
[22:44] <mollyjoy> I am 27.
[22:44] <@smathy> Stuffiness? You mean in a class sense of the word?
[22:45] <Jason997> Sure I suppose
[22:46] <@smathy> You suppose? Don't you know?
[22:46] <mollyjoy> How old are you, Jason997?
[22:47] <Jason997> It is hard to put my esthetic reasons for liking london into a coherent description. I haven't thought about it enough.
... and in fact, smathy actually specifically stated that he was NOT making a moral judgement of Jason based on his liking London. Smathy in fact tried several times with several questions to get Jason to identify "stuffy".
[23:08] <@smathy> I don't think there's anything wrong with finding value in any given city. There are German cities with value, I'm sure. Just as there are other cities - including London. I just found "stuffiness" to be a peculiar value to find in any city.
[23:10] <Jason997> Well, next time I go there I'll be on the lookout for those stuffy intrincisits :)
[23:11] <@smathy> You mean you concluded that the city has a "stuffy" style without being aware of any stuffy people?
[23:11] <Jason997> Most of the people I met were pretty nice
[23:11] * @smathy reists a comment about everyone being pretty nice when you're a boozed up yob ;)
[23:12] <Jason997> heh
[23:12] <@smathy> So most were pretty nice, but some must have been stuffy - else from where did you conclude that?
[23:14] <Jason997> There were a few.. but I found them to be interesting. I always wanted to meet a proper britishman :) You're really going after me on this one. Do you live there?
[23:15] <@smathy> No, I've visited once, stayed a week or so.
[23:15] <Jason997> where are you from?
[23:16] <@smathy> I go after everything in here that I don't understand from new people.
[23:16] <@smathy> I live in Sydney, Australia.
[23:16] <Jason997> Ahh...now there's a place I'd like to visit.
[23:17] <@smathy> Yep, plenty of boozed up yobs down here.
.. and Jason mysteriously left this part of the conversation out of what he presented here, as well.
In fact, smathy AGAIN said that liking London was not an irrationality, and pointed out EXACTLY what he found questionable:
[23:31] <Jason997> smathy,I enjoyed London and all of its stuffyness. If that makes me some kind of irrational evader or intrincisist so be it :)
[23:33] <@smathy> Jason997, it doesn't make you some kind of irrational evader or intrincisist - I said that stuffy people, ie. elitist snobs, were intrinsicists. They think that their birthrights endow them with some intrinsic value, some intrinsic worth.
[23:33] <@smathy> Jason997, that you like that is, at the moment, just incomprehensible.
[23:34] <Jason997> :)
[23:34] <@smathy> That you can't explain why you like it, does bespeak an irrationality.
Not that the fact that he liked London, but the fact that he liked "stuffy", and couldn't explain liking "stuffy" or even identify stuffy, or say what precisely was "stuffy". Now, an Objectivist ought to know Objectivist epistemology; he ought to know that one's premises cause one's emotions, and he ought to know that "like" is an emotional response. What Objectivist, putting into practice the premises of Objectivism, would be completely unable to introspect about such a simple feeling? What is "incomprehensible" to smathy (and to me) is not the liking of London, it is the liking of "stuffy", and the inability to explain why he likes it.
It seems that the whole purpose of the conversation from Jason's perspective was to find people who might condemn him in some way, and then talk about it here and laugh about it, as if judging people were some big joke. Objectivists should know better. Judging people is done for a reason, and the reason is very serious. You do not walk into some stranger's living room where obvious friends are seating around chatting, and expect that no one's going to care who you are or what you want.
So now you have a fuller picture of what happened, for your information. If anyone wishes to see a complete, unabridged log of the discussion, please feel free to ask.
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