The Chronicles of Narnia

Or, perhaps yours, Robert. :)

Post 21

Tuesday, December 27, 2005 - 8:37am

Hi guys. I'm new here. Nice to meet all of you.
Regarding the fantasy movies (all of them):
I just wanted to say that I enjoy sci fi and fantasy movies very much. They 're entertaining as hell,(most of the time). What annoys me is when people, Objectivist or not, try to find deep, affirming life lessons or messages in them...the fact they are based in fantasy kind of kills that for me. I loved "The Lord of the Rings" books and movies, but from them, I take NO values to live by. (Same with the Harry Potter stories...they are charming and well-written, but Harry has no lessons to teach kids--or adults--about life, since none of us can solve our problems with a magic wand and a spell book). There are actually college courses devoted to the "Rings", and "The Matrix", etc...come on! If I hear ONE MORE PERSON say, "But the point of the 'Ring' trilogy is that even the littlest person can make a difference, save the world", whatever...I will scream. Yes, the little Hobbit made a big difference...with the help of a wizard, an elf, a dwarf, a magic ring, etc. Magic makes it fun, but it also (for me, anyway) automatically NULLIFIES any real message I can take away and apply to my life.( Now I have not read Terry Goodkind, and I would be interested to do so; I'll look him up. I want to see how how Objectivist-inspired fantasy works).
I understand that the authors of these stories are certainly influenced by whatever their religious or philosophical backgrounds are, and that they intentionally create themes in their work that reflect that, and they are frequently trying to convey a message to the masses, and that's fine. Naturally, I don't always agree with the message being given, particularly ones that reference existing religions, or promote collectivist/socialist solutions as the "way" to succeed in the story or defeat the evil, etc. But I can still watch the movie for what it's worth to me...pure fantastic entertainment...and leave it at that. Incidentally, I had a female acquaintance (non-Objectivist) who pretty much regarded the Lord of the Rings as her Bible. She was utterly obsessed with it, and would be the first person to argue of its lessons, feminist themes, and so on. She even made a point to read the Silmarrillion (hope I spelled that right), which is (part) of Tolkien's "history" of Middle Earth, literally. It is not a story. It is a history book of things that never happened. (Personally, there are too many actual existing places whose history books I've never read for me to ever spend time reading a fantasy history book. It's akin to memorizing the Klingon dictionary...I don't currently speak any foreign languages. The first one I 'll learn is not going to be Klingon). Anyway, when I met her, I'd never actually read the Tolkien books, and despite the fact that her father is a philosophy professor who HATES all things Rand (or perhaps, because of it) she had never read Rand. So I introduced her to Atlas Shrugged, and she introduced me to Lord of the Rings. I discovered a highly entertaining, fantastic tale that I enjoyed reading very much. And she...discovered a highly entertaining, fantastic tale that she enjoyed reading very much. Atlas Shrugged changed my life. When I first read Rand, I immediately wanted to get my hands on everything she'd ever written. When my acquaintance read her, it was just a story...and not one nearly as important and life-affirming as Lord of the Rings, apparently. (I also introduced her to the Harry Potter stories, and her reaction was like that of mine with Rand...which should tell you something about our respective personalities.) She identifies with fantastic tales, and manages to glean what she considers to be important lessons to inform her life choices. She takes it a little too seriously...I once mentioned that another Ring fan I knew had a replica of The Ring on a chain around his neck (I think Blockbuster was giving them away if you bought the movie) and she retorted (presumably without thinking, but who knows?), "Well, he'd better be careful with that! I wouldn't want that!" and thereby affirming my suspicions that the Tolkien tale really was her religion. After I pointed out that the story isn't real, she tried to backtrack a little and say that she wouldn't want it because of what it symbolized in the movie and yada, yada, yada...but the damage was done of course. I realized then that I would never be able to discuss anything rationally with her. (There were other, non-realated, situations that proved this as well.) Anyway, I know this post is long, and if you read all of it, then...thanks! I suppose my point is that, to me, it doesn't make sense to overanalyze most of these fantasy movies/books/art. They provide great entertainment, but they aren't worth much else. I know where to look when I need to examine and reassess my premises and life decisions, and it sure as hell isn't Harry Potter and the Goblet of Fire.
Ericalynn

Post 22

Tuesday, December 27, 2005 - 1:17pm

Isn't it exciting and good when someone like Erica comes in and makes what looks to me like her first post? I always like that moment... :)

Welcome!

Post 23

Tuesday, December 27, 2005 - 1:27pm

Welcome to ROR Erica. I hope you enjoy this website. Your analysis is in line with my own observations of many fans of the fantasy genre. They enjoy a certain story so much that they effectively turn it into something like the Bible and seek out touchy feely (mystical) symbolism. Lord of the Rings and Starwars fans are the largest groups with a lot of members who fit this mold. These types aren't likely to glean anything from Atlas Shrugged and will usually be hostile to its grounded, non mystical portrayal of ethics. If you go to message boards on the internet where hardcore fans discuss their favorite fantasy/sci fi novels and movies you'll discover that many of the conversations don't differ much from something you would see at a Bible study group .

In any event, I am a big fan of fantasy and sci fi but only on rare occasions (usually with the better sci fi authors) do I find anything of substantial intellectual value. Fantasy is fun, but it doesn't work very well as a literary vehicle for promoting a rational philosophy which is why most of the people who look for deeper meaning in things like Lord of the Rings are more prone to mysticism.

- Jason

Post 24

Tuesday, December 27, 2005 - 1:50pm

I don't think the Lords of the Rings guys are more prone to mysticism, I really don't. Not the many ones I've met (including some old friends). It's even different than that. I'm having trouble describing it, here... it's almost a lifestyle thing, they like the hobbit lifestyle, and a lot of times you see it in their accoutrements. It's kind of a smart hippie/earth shoe vibe. It's an aesthetic issue. A lot of the guys I know who are still into that are really the last ones you'd ever expect to be so into that- major realists, pretty gravelly hardcore dudes (I'm thinking about my bassist and drummer). And, of course, Tolkien was very popular amongst the musician/bong hit crowd. You know, read your Tolkien, listen to the Yes Fragile album with headphones. Yay.

I never got on well with fantasy. For years and years, I devoured sci-fi (or "speculative fiction," as Harlan Ellison preferred to name it). There were values in it- a lot of strong hero values. But mind you, I started out in that stuff with Tom Swift, and Hardy Boys serial novels.

Sci-fi seemed more purposeful to me than pure fantasy- I liked the edge. At the end of all that I read everything Heinlein ever wrote, and right after that I got hit with Atlas Shrugged. I believe that after that, I never picked up another sci-fi book again, and that was around '78. I started reading non-fiction, only. I didn't even really notice it for awhile!

I have nothing against fantasy at all, but in my case, I feel like I'm wasting my time being awake and dreaming someone else's dream. I think I've read exactly one fiction novel in all that time and for the life of me I don't remember which one it was- I was visiting somewhere and didn't have anything.

I think I got my fill of fantasy in grade school. Back then, there was a standing tradition of a teacher reading a chapter of something after lunch. I have a fond memory of being in fifth grade with E.B. White's niece, and the teacher was reading Charlotte's Web. :)

Post 25

Wednesday, December 28, 2005 - 2:43pm

Rich I was saying you give the benefit of the doubt to religion itself. And by being religious I'd say that's pretty close to it.

But the conversation went on so I'll leave my observations at that.

My issue with people who are comfortable with a story that has no connection to reality, morality or their own life is WHY?!

The main reason I stay mainly in the super-hero end of the fantasy spectrum is precisely because much science fiction and fantasy can sometimes be too comfortable being extremely removed from any kind of values that anyone would actually want to apply to their own life.

I guess all I'm saying is that if I can't find bigger significance in a fantasy story I don't partake in it.

---Landon

Post 26

Thursday, December 29, 2005 - 8:07am

Rich I was saying you give the benefit of the doubt to religion itself.

OK, I think I get you now... :)

It depends on the religion. If it is malevolent, and is going after individual freedoms, I don't give them the benefit of anything- I have to try and help stop them through activism. I am very resentful of this situation, because it takes what little bandwidth I have devoted to activism away from other issues.

You might also be using "the benefit of the doubt" as an Objectivist uses it.. That is a philosophical conversation and it belongs elsewhere, I suppose. Obviously it's a mega-topic. The mega-topic. :)

(Edited by Rich Engle on 12/29, 8:08am)

Post 27

Monday, August 28, 2006 - 9:41am

Can't a book or movie be enjoyable for the sake of entertainment? Isn't it okay to allow our children to have irrational beliefs for the sheer joy of it? Just because it's fun? Just because they're only kids for a short period of time and the cold hard truths of reality and adult life hit them soon enough without us taking them away purposely?

Post 28

Monday, August 28, 2006 - 10:17am

That's a good question, Deanna. I haven't read or seen the Narnia movie. For some reason, my son (9 year old) didn't show any interest in it either.

But for myself, I enjoyed movies such as "A fish called Wanda" tremendously, even though the moral of it is all wrong... :-)

Post 29

Monday, August 28, 2006 - 10:33am

Deanna,

My two cents. I thought the Narnia movie was entertaining. I read the books when I was a kid as well. It didn't "harm" me. I have no problem with make-believe and fantasy. I'm a long time role-playing gamer and learned a lot of good problem solving from playing fantasy games. I like lots of movies with "bad" messages for many reasons, but I also recognize the bad messages in them. Allowing a child to enjoy fantasy is fine, but you should help them understand the difference between what is fun make-believe and what is real.

Ethan

Post 30

Monday, August 28, 2006 - 10:55am

Isn't it okay to allow our children to have irrational beliefs for the sheer joy of it? Just because it's fun? Just because they're only kids for a short period of time and the cold hard truths of reality and adult life hit them soon enough without us taking them away purposely?

I have always had a problem with this sentiment - precisely because it is, all in all, an anti-human perspective, and presumes reality is less to be preferred to fantasy - that, moreover, productivity and living life as a self-responsible adult is less to be preferred to that of the dependent irresponsible child... millenium years ago, there might have been some sense of validity for this view, with the vast majority living barely above sustenance, and the enticement, therefore, of the pie-in-the-sky religious fairytale views of the glorious afterlife held sway over many and most.....

Make no mistake - this is not to say there isn't validity for imagination, which is making inventive usage of aspects of reality, instead of fantasy, which debases reality and presume the unearned in matter and spirit, in violation of reality..... 'white poison' is 'fun' too, but is just as inimical to the true well-being of the person, however in the short term it is delightful and seemingly fulfilling.....

Post 31

Monday, August 28, 2006 - 11:23am

Can't a book or movie be enjoyable for the sake of entertainment? Isn't it okay to allow our children to have irrational beliefs for the sheer joy of it? Just because it's fun? Just because they're only kids for a short period of time and the cold hard truths of reality and adult life hit them soon enough without us taking them away purposely?

This is such a flawed argument.

Reality exists. Parents don't take anything away by exposing kids to reality.

This attitude also seems to indicate a general dislike of adult life, at least compared to childhood. If adulthood is so terrible, perhaps kids should just end their lives once they reach these "cold hard truths"?

Post 32

Monday, August 28, 2006 - 12:35pm

That's probably why many people never really grow up. ;-^

Post 33

Monday, August 28, 2006 - 12:43pm

Perhaps "cold hard truths" was too harsh of a phrase. I was simply referring to the responsibilities of adult life, like paying bills and doing home repairs. I, personally, had a difficult childhood and would not choose to return to it. Maybe that is why I want my own child to enjoy being a kid to the fullest. If that means he daydreams about being a wizard (while knowing that isn't realistic) then so be it. Doesn't objectivism allow that middle ground?

Post 34

Monday, August 28, 2006 - 12:50pm

"Objectivism" doesn't really have anything to say about it. If you teach your child to know the difference between reality and fantasy then playing pretend and make-believe is no problem.

Ethan

Post 35

Monday, August 28, 2006 - 2:14pm

I didn't like the movie, it was bad for a number of reasons including as entertainment - not terrible, just not very good. The whole deal with the middle boy made no sense at all to me, and the concept that he "betrayed" them was ridiculous - he did no such thing - he was forced by violence into revealing the information, he did not do it willingly he was duped, imprisoned and forced. How is that a betrayal? Thats just one thing, I could go on... bad movie.

Post 36

Monday, August 28, 2006 - 3:03pm

Maybe that is why I want my own child to enjoy being a kid to the fullest. If that means he daydreams about being a wizard (while knowing that isn't realistic) then so be it. Doesn't objectivism allow that middle ground?

It sounds like more like you want to relive your childhood through your kids. That only guarantees that they won't be happy or have a sense of self. Maybe your kid isn't going to "enjoy being a kid" the way you want him or her to.

I wish I had a nickel for every kid who is messed up by parents who wanted them to have their concept of fun.

Are you also going to insist that your daughter make the cheerleading squad just because you didn't make it?

(Edited by Chris Baker on 8/28, 3:06pm)

Post 37

Monday, August 28, 2006 - 3:12pm

Isn't it okay to allow our children to have irrational beliefs for the sheer joy of it? Just because it's fun?

There is a time to be a child and there is a time to be an adult. The beauty and magic which can be experienced through the eyes of a child does not have to impinge on the reality of life. My belief in Santa Claus as a child did not stop me from realizing there was not one when I grew a little older nor did that realization take away from the wonderment I felt when I was younger.

There were other things which were told to me as the truth and never contradicted which caused me much greater psychological trauma than Santa or Tooth Fairies.

Overall though I had a wonderful childhood so any state of mind which persisted far into adulthood and I made no attempt to change I take credit for and do not blame my parents. The time for blame has long passed.

L W

Post 38

Monday, August 28, 2006 - 3:26pm

Christ you're a cynic, Chris.

There's nothing wrong with wanting the best for your kid, and that includes not exposing them to shit they aren't prepared to deal with.

Parents introduce their own values to their children because that's what they know, not because they're trying to relive their childhoods. Geeze.

Post 39

Monday, August 28, 2006 - 4:11pm