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Tuesday, January 3, 2006 - 12:24pmSanction this postReply
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I want to contrast the view held by Tara Smith, with the view that seems to be held by Leonard Piekoff on this issue and hopefully start a good technical discussion about ethics.  

Here are a couple of snipets from "Viable Values" by Tara Smith (p. 107-108) :

"...the choice to live is prerational.  It is a presupposition of the standards of rationality... The decision of whether to live, then, is itself neither justified nor unjustified.  This reveals no infirmity in the ethics that I have defended because it is not the sort of decision that could be justified... To embrace life is, however necessary for the phenomenon of value to arise, as was explained in the first part of the chapter."

Piekoff in OPAR (p. 248) resoundingly passes judgment on those who would decide not to live.

"The choice to live, as we have seen is the choice to accept the realm of reality.  This choice is not only not arbitrary.  It is the precondition of criticizing the arbitrary; it is the base of reason [italics added] .  A man who would throw away his life without cause, who would reject the universe on principle and embrace a zero for its own sake--such a man, according to Objectivism, would belong in the lower rung of hell." 

So according to Smith, all moral choices follow after the prerational choice to live whereas Piekoff argues that the choice to live is the first rational choice.  Under Piekoff's formulation it would seem that it is our ethical duty to choose life (except under certain circumstances).  Which one of them is right? 

 - Jason

(Edited by Jason Quintana on 1/03, 12:30pm)


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Tuesday, January 3, 2006 - 1:55pmSanction this postReply
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Hi Jason,

I would suppose that you'd first have to define "rational" and "pre-rational." Another question is, how do you "make a choice" in a pre-rational way?

Ethan


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Tuesday, January 3, 2006 - 2:18pmSanction this postReply
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Smith defines rational as doing what one ought to do to futher ones life following the decision to live.  She is saying that in order to get to the level of rational choices one must first make the pre rational choice to live, which, she says is merely a preference and that there is nothing that logically necessitates the wish to live.
 
I liked this book when I read it a year ago but I am I still puzzled by that last point and I am hoping that a discussion about it here can clear it up for me.

 - Jason


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Tuesday, January 3, 2006 - 2:37pmSanction this postReply
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I'm interested now too, thanks for posting this. I'd say there is a problem with her reasoning or definitions here, but I'll have to think about it more. Wouldn't you say that without reason there is no logic, or a t least logic can't be employed without reason. Wouldn't  you also say that reason and logic reside at the the root of choice?

I read in a piece by Joe Rowlands the very apt statement that the choice to live is a pre-moral choice, that in and of itself cannot be judged right or wrong. It's the choice to live that gives a basis for all morality. He mentions it here on IOP http://importanceofphilosophy.com/Ethics_Morality.html but I think I read this somewhere else in more detail.

I don't understand how one could hold that choosing life is a pre-rational preference. What the heck is a preference?

This should be a good topic!

Ethan


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Tuesday, January 3, 2006 - 2:56pmSanction this postReply
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I don't have a problem understanding the pre-rational nature of the choice to live.

Existence exists.
The nature, character, properties, et. of existence is to "become living".

(I attribute evolution as a natural phenomena amenable to science. If you don't, then you'll have to deal with God ;-D )

Therefore, the choice not to live would require violating your identity as a piece of life in a living universe.

Some force, some perverse twisting of nature (such as making the actions, the virtues and values required for living self-destructive) would be required to achieve this.

Scott

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Tuesday, January 3, 2006 - 2:57pmSanction this postReply
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Hi Jason,

There already was a thread devoted to this, so I wouldn't want to make the same argument twice. I was almost alone in arguing in some detail for the position that it would be immoral to arbitrarily (no fatal illness or loss of all values, etc.) choose to not live or to live in a half-hearted, half-human way.

I don't remember the thread, but I am not a fan of multiple or repeated threads every few months on the same technical topic.

Phil

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Tuesday, January 3, 2006 - 3:16pmSanction this postReply
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Another caveat: While you are certainly one of the most knowledgeable and thoughtful posters on Solo and I find your posts a pleasure to read, I find that technical topics in philosophy seldom work well on this board.

Phil

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Tuesday, January 3, 2006 - 3:23pmSanction this postReply
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I still want to talk about it Jason :-)

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Post 8

Tuesday, January 3, 2006 - 3:25pmSanction this postReply
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Phil!! If you don't like my thread you don't have to participate :) 

I have a question and I'm hoping that someone smarter or more knowledgable then myself can help me come to a clear answer.  If nothing comes of it then nothing comes of it. 

 - Jason


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Tuesday, January 3, 2006 - 3:27pmSanction this postReply
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A world full of naysayers and doom proclaimers would be a terrible thing. Any topic like this is a good opportunity to learn, and I love to learn.

Ethan


Post 10

Tuesday, January 3, 2006 - 3:38pmSanction this postReply
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Jason,

Smith defines rational as doing what one ought to do to futher ones life following the decision to live.
Tara Smith views rationality from a coherence perspective -- not a correspondence perspective. In this manner, anything goes as the start-point -- but other decisions have to resonate with the initial, fundamental decision. After deciding to live, you are then locked into a certain (life-promoting) pattern. This method takes the teleology to be a mental construct -- a subjective preference.

Piekoff views rationality from a correspondence perspective. Facts are facts. If you are a being capable of happy life, and you choose not to attempt one, then you have thrown away potential value -- ie. you aren't cool. Sure, you say, but the value is only potential (not yet actualized). Well, I say, is it right to make good investment? Is it right to bet with the odds (even though the outcome is not yet known)?

It is absolutely right, even though the expected value is only potentially there. As a being capable of happy life, there is only one moral way to bet. If you can be happy, you ought to -- you will be the "victim" for choosing any other course than this.

Any thoughts on that?

Ed


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Tuesday, January 3, 2006 - 3:52pmSanction this postReply
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Good question Jason.  I'm still unclear a bit, so I won't make any leaps yet.  If Smith says that rational decision come only after one has made the decision to live, then how does one make that first decision.  Is it done arbitrarily?  Or in accordance with some animal instinct(or lack thereof)?  Is it done "beyond good and evil"?

Also, at what point in ones life would one make that decision if it were an antecedent to reason?  Also, if one made the decision to live, and at another point in their life decided they had lost their highest values and did not wish to go on, is this decision of to live or not to live prerational?

This brings many questions to the forefront.  I hope to see it produce some good thoughts.


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Tuesday, January 3, 2006 - 5:40pmSanction this postReply
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> I have a question and I'm hoping that someone smarter or more knowledgable then myself can help me come to a clear answer. If nothing comes of it then nothing comes of it.

Okay, fair enough if it seems useful, but then why not review the original thread first and all the many points which I and others already made on it? (It can't be too hard to find in the archives.)
(Edited by Philip Coates
on 1/03, 5:42pm)


Post 13

Tuesday, January 3, 2006 - 5:44pmSanction this postReply
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Hint - try remembering that logic is non-contradictory identification, and that as such does not need cognitiveness in the conscious stage of being reality oriented in the beginning... in other words, there is a biological factor involved here...

And thank you, Jason, for bringing this up - was wondering when someone would notice this seeming discrepancy between the two works... [tho, if one would continue to think of an organism an inherantly an integratedness - including the human - then one can see this processing clearer, as another aspect of the biological process]

(Edited by robert malcom on 1/03, 5:48pm)


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Tuesday, January 3, 2006 - 6:35pmSanction this postReply
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I've thought this subject quite a bit myself. To qualm Mr. Coates and Dr. Peikoff, disclaimer: I don't know everything, my knowledge isn't perfect, my ability to communicate isn't optimal for every being I attempt to communicate with, and I haven't read every word that Ayn Rand said. But if you want to read what I type, you are free to do so at your own risk. : )

First, I'd like to point out that rational processes, such as induction and deduction work without morality. Take science or primitive AI for example. Also, information can be stored, recalled, and operated on logically without morality. Take a microprocessor for example.

I agree with Tara Smith. I think Peikoff is only capable of judging others, morally condemning him, because he values his own life and he thinks he'd be better off if everyone made the choice to live, and made their life their highest value. To value is something "which one acts to gain or keep". You can choose them, your body chooses them, you are your body, one.

I'm sorry, but you can't have morality without a being that can make choices that at least one value. What would you like your highest value to be? Below is my introduction to morality.
For morality to exist, you have to have a value holder (something capable of thinking and making decisions that has a value) and options where things can either promote or hinder the value. Anything that promotes the value holder's values is good, anything that hinder's the value holder's values is bad.

In environmentalism, keeping nature independent of men is the highest value.
In communism, helping others, even at your sacrifice, is the highest value.
In many religions, doing what the God believed in said to do is the highest value.
In objectivism, doing what is good for your own life is the highest value.
In Post-Modernism & Nihilism, nothing is of value.
In multiculturalism, letting others practice their beliefs is of highest value.
=======================================

To answer your question about whether your decision to live could go out of scope, I'll have to talk about the human mind and body.

A thought only really stays in your head while you are actively thinking about it. This is "short term" memory, where information is looping and working through your brain cells. You can store information in long term memory, like how you went about choosing to live in the past, or what your decision was, but once you store it and stop thinking about it, your not really choosing to live anymore, you are then thinking about something else, choosing something else, or possibly recalling random memories or not even thinking at all. Of course you can recall the decision in the future, but you aren't really deciding at that point, you have to check your premises and choose again.

So that should answer your question. You have to choose, not just once, but contiually through your life. Not only that, but you have to choose to what degree you will live: to what extent will you act to promote your life, happiness, etc?

====================================

Here's more of my thoughts on the human brain and body:

And more than that, parts of our brain work automatically, that are almost impossible to control through focused decision.

And more than that, some parts work by habit. You repeat an action in a given context, and these cells learn the actions and context, and then they repeat the behavior in the future when the context happens-- and you will do them, unless you consciously do something different, and you will not stop doing them unless you consciously usually stop them.

There's more to our brain that that though. Our brain is connected to all of our sensory organs, and extends out to them. Information is constantly being collected and filtered, by habit, and by chosen focus.

Someone once told me that the perception of our own thoughts is a sixth sense. Our brains can sense the thoughts, be aware of them, itself.

I'd say emotions are like a seventh sense. There are many different ways that a situation in reality could impact your life. Emotions are your mind/body's way of telling you that you are in one of these contexts. They may cause some chemical reactions in your body that drive your mind to into action. Emotions are kind of like thoughts, they are not direct manifestations of sensory organs, but instead are invoked by habit, some of the habits are from genetics (instinct) some learned (through experience and reason).

Anybody interested in AI? Viruses have been made. Bacteria have been made. Maybe one of these days I'll get around to making animals and plants, when I'm not so busy talking up a storm on RoR : ).

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Tuesday, January 3, 2006 - 7:05pmSanction this postReply
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Dean,

It is a privilege to be able to read your thoughts. I say again, you are awesome.

"You have to choose, not just once, but continually through your life."

Yes. Early in this thread a thought flashed in my head "it's a chicken and egg thing".

And about the "sixth" sense, the sense that is aware of our thought processes themselves, I've always been aware of that in my mind. My "self" as an observer, the decision maker. While "intoxicated" [too much beer] still there. While feeling strong emotions, still there.

Thank you for your thoughts and all of your very valuable contributions to this website. I look forward to whatever you do next.

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Tuesday, January 3, 2006 - 8:10pmSanction this postReply
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As Branden pointed out long ago - life consists of making choices...

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Post 17

Wednesday, January 4, 2006 - 12:14amSanction this postReply
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This issue was discussed in a previous thread under the Article Discussion Forum, entitled “Daily Linz 6 – A Duty to Live,” to which I contributed three posts: 48, 56 and 65. Below is a not too succinct summary of their essential points:

To say, as Tara Smith does, that "Life is the standard of value and source of moral obligation if it is a person's goal, but [that] it is up to the individual whether to embrace that goal" (Viable Values, pp. 143-145) implies that whether or not he embraces the goal is arbitrary and amoral. But if he has something to live for--if happiness is possible to him--then not to embrace that goal and the potential happiness he could gain from it would be contrary to the Objectivist ethics. Smith continues, "At a broader level, however, the decision of whether to embrace ends is not a question of rationality. Remember that the choice to live is prerational."

On the contrary, ultimate values are not chosen; they are a given and are the foundation of ethical choice. The capacity for happiness and its relationship to life-serving action is part of one's nature as a human being; it is not something one chooses. The only question for ethics is, given this natural basis of value, what choices are rational? To say that the choice to live is "prerational" is a non-sequitur. If one has something to live for--if happiness is possible to one--then the choice to live is rational. If one has nothing to live for--if life is pure agony with no redeeming value--then the choice to suffer needlessly by prolonging one's life is irrational. In either case, the choice to live or not to live is subject to the standard of rationality; it is not and cannot be prerational.

Smith continues, "[...] After all the reckoning about likely future scenarios and effects on a person's ends has been completed, a person reaches a picture of what his life might be. The decision of whether to pursue this stands beyond the reach of reason. How a person arrived at his image of his future could be rational or irrational; whether he wants that future can be neither."

Yes, whether he wants the future can be neither, in the sense that what he wants is not a means to some further end or goal. But what he chooses based on what he wants is indeed subject to the criterion of rationality. Smith is confusing the prerationality of the desire to live with the prerationality of the decision to live. The desire is prerational; the decision is not.

Which brings me to a statement by Peikoff:
"Existence, therefore, does demand of man a certain course, it does include the fact that he must act in a certain way--if; if, that is, he chooses a certain goal. . . Morality is no more than a means to an end; it defines the causes we must enact if we are to attain a certain effect. Thus Ayn Rand's statement that the principle replacing duty in the Objectivist ethics is causality, in the form of the memorable Spanish proverb "God said: Take what you want and pay for it."

If life is what you want, you must pay for it, by accepting and practicing a code of rational behavior. Morality, too, is a must--if; it is the price of the choice to live. That choice itself, therefore, is not a moral choice; it precedes morality. (OPAR, pp. 244-245)
Later, Peikoff addresses the following objection to this view:
If the choice to live precedes morality...what is the status of someone who chooses not to live? Isn't the choice of suicide as legitimate as any other, so long as one acts on it? And if so, doesn't that mean that for Rand, too, as for Hume and Neitzsche, ethics, being the consequence of an arbitrary decision, is itself arbitrary?" [This objection seeks] to prove that values are arbitrary by citing a person who would commit suicide, not because of any tragic cause, but as a primary and an end-in-itself. The answer to this one is: no. A primary choice does not mean an 'arbitrary,' 'whimsical,' or 'groundless' choice. There are grounds for a (certain) primary choice, and those grounds are reality. . .A man who would throw away his life without cause...would belong on the lowest rung of Hell. (p. 248)
But to say that there "are grounds for a (certain) primary choice," that "those grounds are reality" and that "a man who would throw away his life without cause...would belong on the lowest rung of Hell" is simply another way of saying that the primary choice is a moral choice, after all. There is no justification whatsoever for consigning a person who makes a pre-moral choice to the lowest rung of Hell, which is a moralistic metaphor if I ever heard one! Kelley was absolutely right in his criticism of Peikoff on this point.

I think that this contradiction in Peikoff’s explanation stems in part from the fact that Rand wasn't as clear as she could have been in her article, "Causality versus Duty" wherein she defends the conditional nature of morality. I do think that Peikoff is right about the wrongness of throwing away your life without cause, but this simply means that, contrary to his earlier remarks, the choice to live is not pre-moral.

In fact, I would go so far as to say that the concept of a pre-moral or pre-normative choice is incoherent. A choice presupposes a standard, which is an end or goal that the choice is intended to serve. One always chooses for a reason or a purpose. In that respect, one's choice is a means to an end. Insofar as the end is not an ultimate value, it can be evaluated by an end that is an ultimate value. In the case of Objectivism, a person's ultimate end or "standard of value" in this context is his highest moral purpose, namely his own happiness. It is for the sake of that end or goal that he "ought" to make his choices. If he chooses death without a good reason--if he decides to commit suicide when happiness is still possible to him--then he has made an irrational or immoral choice. This is what Peikoff ends up saying in so many words without actually acknowledging it, because, of course, to acknowledge it would contradict his earlier point that the choice to live is not a moral choice on the grounds that it precedes morality. Well, if the choice to live is not a moral choice, then the choice to die cannot be immoral; it cannot be a choice that defies reality and merits consignment to the lowest rung of Hell.

Consider Rand’s comments in her essay "Causality Versus Duty":
Life and death is man's only fundamental alternative. To live is his basic act of choice. If he chooses to live, a rational ethics will tell him what principles of action are required to implement his choice. If he does not choose to live, nature will take its course.

Reality confronts man with a great many "musts," but all of them are conditional; the formula of realistic necessity is: "You must if --" and the "if" stands for man's choice: "-- if you want to achieve a certain goal." [The Objectivist, July 1970, p. 4]
Rand's essay is also reproduced in Philosophy: Who Needs It. But I have a problem with the way she couches her argument. She writes: "You must if--and the 'if' stands for man's choice:--if you want to achieve a certain goal." No, the "if" does not stand for man's choice; it stands for the antecedent condition that determines what choice is appropriate. If you want to achieve a certain goal, then you must choose the means to that goal in order to achieve it. In other words, you do not choose the "if"; you do not choose the antecedent condition or the goal; the goal is that for the sake of which you make the choice.

Rand appears to be saying here that the ultimate goal is chosen, but if the ultimate goal is chosen, then it is not chosen for the sake any further end or goal, in which case, it is arbitrary, which is the very point that Peikoff is denying. And I think he is right to deny it, but in denying it, he is committed to the view that, rather than being something we choose, the ultimate goal is that for the sake of which we make the choice.

- Bill


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Post 18

Wednesday, January 4, 2006 - 7:21amSanction this postReply
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Jason,

Here's my two cents. On a weird concept like "pre-rational choice to live," I don't have all that much to say because I can't understand it.

One of the problems I have with Objectivists when things get really theoretical is that common sense goes out the window and an either-or attitude pops up where one does not apply. Also, they try to boil things down to a single moral principle when such principle does not apply. Choice is an example. Choice applies only to the exercise of a brain, not the biological functions of the whole organism.

An urge to survive is built in to all living organisms. Sometimes there are anomalies like lemmings, but this does not negate the essential truth of this universal urge to prolong life of living creatures. Choice has nothing to do with it. The "urge to live" is even present on a cell level inside our bodies.

The faculty of volition comes from the brain. Before a brain can exist, it must be part of a living being. So it is obvious that there is an urge to live built in BEFORE volition is exercised - on any level, even perceptual. The fact that volition can override this urge does not obliterate the urge from existence.

This is where the false either-or thing comes in - and the eternal quest of some Objectivists for a first cause stemming from volition so that they can say that the existence of life itself is a question of morality, not just metaphysics.

Morality concerns only the faculty of volition, not biological urges. Recognizing a biological urge is a more metaphysical question (What is it? Not, what should it do?).

Michael


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Wednesday, January 4, 2006 - 7:59amSanction this postReply
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Michael:
An urge to survive is built in to all living organisms. Sometimes there are anomalies like lemmings,

There is no anomaly, that lemming story is an urban legend. See for example http://www.snopes.com/disney/films/lemmings.htm
Further I agree completely with your post. However, I think you made an error when you wrote:
Recognizing a biological urge is a more metaphysical question (What is it? Not, what should it do?)
It is of course not a metaphysical, but a scientific question.

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