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Post 20

Sunday, March 5, 2006 - 10:30pmSanction this postReply
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Stuart, as I see it, your question comes down to just how it is against the old man's interest to take other people with him when he commits suicide. On the face of it, it doesn't seem that it is, since he will not be around to suffer any adverse consequences. In other words, what does he have to lose? I think this is a good question.

One possible answer is that such an action will violate a principle of rights which it is in each person's self-interest to follow, not because a respect for other people's rights will have an immediate and direct benefit to the moral agent, but because its general acceptance will. In other words, it is more in one's interest to live in a society in which people's rights are respected than to live in one in which they are not. But the only way in which that value can be realized is if each person chooses independently to respect the rights of others, even in cases in which he can get away with violating them.

Now the old man's situation is one such example. He can in that situation violate the rights of others and get away with it, because he won't suffer any adverse consequences. Does it follow that he should do it? If it does, then there is no argument against anyone else's violating the rights of others when he or she can get away with it. But once that premise is granted, individual rights go out the window, and what you have is a predatory society -- a Hobbsian war of all against all. If the old man can do this to others, then there is no argument against anyone else's having done it to him when he was not suicidal. It's either/or. Either you are obligated to respect the rights of others on principle, or they don't exist. If they are to exist, then you must respect them under all (relevant) circumstances, including those in which you can get away with violating them -- a principle which applies as much to the old man as it does to a predatory thief.

- Bill





Post 21

Monday, March 6, 2006 - 9:24amSanction this postReply
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Everyone (sorry Aarron),
Excuse me for a parentheses. I really want to pipe Dean down a bit.
The reason MSK wants to pipe me down is because he doesn't want others to know that he is a looter. All he had realized on Feb 23 was that it is against his self interest to allow others to know that he is a looter. Notice he still holds positive rights. All he had decided to do was to stop "clamoring".

MSK, do not make bogus claims like I am performing "childish behavior", or that your "present position completely nullifies [my] complaints" on this thread. I'd prefer that you post such claims on the thread where you revealed to me that you are a looter.



Post 22

Monday, March 6, 2006 - 9:29amSanction this postReply
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I will try to return to Mr. Hayasha's main issue, of the way in which morality is contingent upon the choice to live, in a separate post below. In the present post, I want to comment on a side-issue that arose in the posts of Bob Mac (#4), Dean Gores (#5), and Robert Malcom (#9).

One definition of sacrifice in my American Heritage Dictionary of the English Language is "the forfeiture of something highly valued . . . for the sake of someone or something considered to have a greater value." In that ordinary sense of the term sacrifice, making a sacrifice need not entail a deviation from the pursuit of one's self-interest. If the thing "considered to have a greater value" is considered by oneself to have that greater value, then sacrifice in the ordinary sense of the term could be an action of self-interest.

Rand gave the term sacrifice a special definition, which is the one Mr. Malcom meant: the forfeiture of something of greater value for something of lesser value. Rand used the term in the way she did, and there is no changing that. In better step with common usage, she could have called it inverted sacrifice. That would have been awkward. And she wanted to attack additional branches in the idea of sacrifice. She wanted to attack homage to supernatural deities that goes with the term sacrifice, and she wanted to attack the sacrifice of individuals to collectives.

Mr. Mac, Rand does not assert that life is the only correct choice. The protagonists in her last two novels are crafted to be morally ideal, by the light of her own theory of morality. Her protagonists Howard Roark and John Galt both leave open the possibility of correctly choosing death, even for the sake of someone else. Roark tells his friend Wynand that he would die to save him, though he would not live for him. John Galt does not say that he would not in any circumstance die for another, only that he would not live for another.

You asked, Bob Mac, whether valuing your life, but just not always at the top, is a non-Objectivist position. I regard Objectivism as nothing but the philosophy of Ayn Rand, as expressed in the writings she chose to publish. If I understand her correctly, she would regard the death-options left open for Roark and Galt as true to their lives as human lives. For humans there is having a life as a whole. That life one has is one's composition upon what is dealt one by nature. Trueness to that composed life might entail a choice of death at some point.

I am delighted by your attitude, when you say "I'm not looking to reconcile or justify my choices within Objectivism." See, further http://rebirthofreason.com/Articles/Boydstun/Pride_of_Place.shtml

Stephen



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