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Sunday, March 5, 2006 - 1:12amSanction this postReply
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I hope this post is not considered something that should be in the "dissent" section, because I do not intend this post to be any kind of criticism of Objectivism. Rather, once every few years I come across a criticism of Objectivism for which I cannot provide a rebuttal that I am fully satisfied with. Thus, I wanted to ask for everyone's input on a certain criticism of Objectivism that, as of this writing, has me stumped.

Actually, it's a rather original twist on an old critique of Objectivism. The old version is easy to refute, but I cannot disprove the new version. I heard the new version from Douglas B. Rasmussen in the Philosophers of Capitalism anthology Edward W. Younkins put together. I know that Dr. Rasmussen sticks up for Ayn Rand in academia, so I don't want my post to be taken as any kind of accusation that Dr. Rasmussen is consciously hostile to Objectivism. I write this post because I believe that Dr. Rasmussen's argument and Objectivist ethics cannot both be equally correct at the same time.

If I understand Ayn Rand's writings correctly, the field of morality is contingent upon the choice to live. Rasmussen quotes from For the New Intellectual,"My morality, the morality of reason, is contained in a single axiom: existence exists -- and in a single choice: to live." Then he quotes from "Causality Versus Duty,"

Life or death is man's only fundamental alternative. To live is his basic act of choice. If he chooses to live, a rational ethics will tell him what principles of action are required to implement his choice. If he does not choose to live, nature will take its course.

Reality confronts man with a great many "musts," but all of them are conditional: the formula for realistic necessity is: "You must, if--"and "if" stands for man's choice: "--if you want to achieve a certain goal." You must eat, if you want to survive.


Rasmussen interprets this as saying that morality is contingent upon the choice to live. You must be moral if you choose to live.

I agree with that interpretation. Here, people insert the lame argument that this is empty, because, if morality is contingent upon your choice to live, then there is no moral precept telling you that you must choose to live. Wikipedia summarizes it:

Nozick's own libertarian political conclusions are similar to Rand's, but his essay criticizes her foundational argument in ethics, which claims that one's own life is, for each individual, the only ultimate value because it makes all other values possible. To make this argument sound, Nozick argues that Rand still needs to explain why someone could not rationally prefer the state of eventually dying and having no values. Thus, he argues, her attempt to deduce the morality of selfishness is essentially an instance of assuming the conclusion or begging the question and that her solution to David Hume's famous is-ought problem is unsatisfactory.


Basically, Dr. Nozick's argument is: But what if someone does not choose to live? If morality only applies to someone who chooses to perpetuate his or her own life, then suicide is outside the realm of morality, as you cannot offer a rational reason why someone must choose to live in the first place.

I don't buy this, because how many people spontaneously choose suicide? People generally have a bias against hanging oneself, or shooting oneself, or jumping off the roof of a skyscraper.

My answer to the objection from Wikipedia is: Yes, morality is contingent upon the choice to live, and there really is no duty or obligation for someone to live. Morality applies to him of her if he or she chooses to live. If someone wants to kill him- or herself in the privacy of his or her own home, not harming anyone else, then that should be his or her prerogative. In other words: If someone truly believes that life continuance is not worth pursuing, I dare him to drop dead.

So I don't buy the "But Ayn Rand didn't tell you why you should choose life" argument, because I don't believe such a duty is necessary.

However, Rasmussen's essay in Dr. Younkins's book did raise some new questions surrounding this that I do not yet have answers to. Dr. Rasmussen says that, if it is true that morality is contingent upon the choice to live, then a suicidal person has no reason to be moral. This has gotten me wondering about those who kill others while committing suicide, such as suicide-bombers.

I have this hypothetical scenario: a very old, terminally-ill man in constant pain no longer wants to live. As a final "Screw you!" to the rest of the world, he decides that when he dies, he won't go alone. He will set off a bomb killing both himself and his neighbors at a time of his choosing. If morality is contingent upon the choice to live, then what makes his choice morally wrong? He chooses to die, and, once he's dead, reality can no longer inflict any punishment upon him.

I hope that is not an unfair, fantastical David D. Friedman-styled argument that presents a scenario that pretty much defies all known laws of logic. For instance, a lot of silly college students actually pose this as some kind of serious moral question: "What if space aliens landed on Earth on Monday, and told you that, unless you kill and eat your own grandmother by Saturday, they will kill everyone on Earth and let only your grandmother live? Would you then comply with their demand?" Basically, the question says: What if reality were not what it is? Then your Objectivist ethics wouldn't apply! Well, they don't apply because known verifiable reality does not apply in that arbitrarily-constructed scenario.

Likewise, Dr. Friedman makes up ridiculous scenarios like: What if a giant asteroid is heading to earth and might kill everyone? The only way to save Earth is by using a machine. Only one copy of it exists on Earth, and that copy costs $1 trillion. And you cannot afford it and cannot afford building another copy, nor can any coalition of people on Earth. And the owner won't let you borrow it. Wouldn't you steal it from him then, if you could? Again, that defies reality. It's also silly to ask, "What if you were hanging on a ledge, and the only way to survive was to swing into the open window of an apartment without the apartment owner's permission? Would you do it?" How did I get on that ledge anyway; am I Spider-Man? I hope that my "old man" scenario isn't like that.

Here, I would ordinarily reply that it is still wrong for the old man to commit suicide by setting off this bomb because it impinges upon other people's right to life. This old man may want to die, but his neighbors want to live, and, by setting off this bomb, he deprives other people of their rationally self-interested desire to live, so he had better expect those other people to take action to preserve their own lives if they find out what he's doing. However, if the old man's primary life goal has always been a good quality of life, and that is now medically impossible, what reasons would he not have to use the bomb to kill himself and his neighbors simultaneously?

I suppose that one rational reply could be: "How did the old man get into this situation in the first place? If he wishes to murder his neighbors while committing suicide, then he more than likely was already a really immoral person long before he found himself incapacitated by terminal illness. It's not very plausible that this old man lived a very moral, kind-hearted, compassionate Objectivist life for so many decades and then, at this very last minute, decides to switch gears and become a vindictive murderer. The question is far wider than just what this man should do or not do when so close to his death. The bigger question is: why he couldn't have taken a more Objectivist, pro-life approach many years before he came into this position?"

I cannot dispute that. So let's concede that this guy has consistently been a huge jerk his whole life. But since he's squandered his healthy years already and cannot get them back, then why, in this last instant, should he choose the moral route of not killing his neighbors? If he kills his neighbors and himself in the bomb blast, he receives no more punishment from Metaphysical Nature than he would if he killed himself alone. Since social metaphysics does not determine morality, I do not see how his gaining a bad reputation afterward constitutes punishment from Nature.

Dr. Rasmussen does not use such an example in his essay, but he says that suicidal behavior can only be rationally judged as immoral if we believe that there is some duty to seek life. And Dr. Rasmussen then says that if is true that morality is contingent upon the choice to live, then it cannot be true that it is immoral for someone to not choose life. Dr. Rasmussen holds that it is a contradiction to first say: (a) morality only becomes applicable upon your choice to sustain your life, and (b) it is immoral for you to reject the choice to live.

In Objectivism: The Philosophy of Ayn Rand, Leonard Peikoff sounds like he may have found a reconciliation for this by saying that the emphasis is on the quality of life, not the mere absence of physical death:

...I want to mention first that suicide is sometimes justified, according to Objectivism. Suicide is justified when man's life, owing to circumstances outside of a person's control, is no longer possible; an example might be a person with a painful terminal illness, or a prisoner in a concentration camp who sees no chance of escape. In cases such as these, suicide is not necessarily a philosophic rejection of life or of reality. On the contrary, it may very well be their tragic reaffirmation. Self-destruction in such contexts may amount to the tortured cry: "Man's life means so much to me that I will not settle for anything less, I will not accept a living death as a substitute."

The professors I just quoted, however, have an entirely different case in mind. They seek to prove that values are arbitrary by citing a person who would commit suicide, not because of any tragic cause, but as a primary and an end-in-itself.


I mostly buy that, except that the "living death" of being in constant pain or in a concentration camp, as horrible as it is, is not metaphysical, literal, biological death. Dr. Peikoff's argument makes sense if "life" is taken to refer to quality of life and not the mere absence of biological death.

And Dr. Peikoff is also correct that a philosopher engages in the utmost hypocrisy when he first says that you cannot prove that life is valuable and then goes on living his life. In order for an anti-Randian philosopher to tell you that life is a non-value, he must implicitly regard life as worth holding onto, since he hasn't killed himself yet. That's a stolen concept. If such a philosopher practiced what he preached, he really wouldn't be eating or working or doing anything to further his life.

However, this again raises the issue of those who try to kill themselves and others at the same time, such as the 9/11 hijackers. It is true that every suicide-bomber was immoral long before deciding to commit murder-suicide. However, if morality is contingent upon the choice to have a quality life, I do not see how Metaphysical Reality can punish someone for choosing to commit a murder-suicide intead of just suicide. If a fatally ill man, wracked with pain, decides to kill himself and others with a bomb, I don't see how Metaphysical Reality would punish him any worse than a man who just kills himself alone.

I don't think that this case against Objectivism is fully convincing, but I do not yet know how to answer it. Can anyone help me out with this?


Update minutes later: Okay, now I see that this relates to the "Prerational and Premoral Choice to Live" thread Jason Quintana started. However, if my post adds some new intellectual material to the discussion, some replies would be greatly appreciated. :-)
(Edited by Mr. Stuart K. Hayashi
on 3/05, 1:35am)


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Sunday, March 5, 2006 - 3:10amSanction this postReply
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Mr. Stuart K. Hayashi,
My answer to the objection from Wikipedia is: Yes, morality is contingent upon the choice to live, and there really is no duty or obligation for someone to live. Morality applies to him of her if he or she chooses to live.
I think an individual's morality is dependent on what their highest values are/highest value is. I think an individual's values can change, and their moral system can change. I think an Objectivist is a person who chose their own life as their highest value. There are plenty of other things to choose as your highest value.
So I don't buy the "But Ayn Rand didn't tell you why you should choose life" argument, because I don't believe such a duty is necessary.
You have to find your own reason to choose to live. If you don't find a reason to live, then you have found nirvana, you can just collapse and cease activity.
However, Rasmussen's essay in Dr. Younkins's book did raise some new questions surrounding this that I do not yet have answers to. Dr. Rasmussen says that, if it is true that morality is contingent upon the choice to live, then a suicidal person has no reason to be moral. This has gotten me wondering about those who kill others while committing suicide, such as suicide-bombers.
A suicidal person doesn't have a reason to be moral from an objectivist's standards. An altruist doesn't have a reason to be moral from an objectivist's standards. Some people actually just make it their goal to destroy the most productive individuals! I think its pretty clear that plenty of people do not have a reason to be moral by my standards. All I can do is make sure that I act to maximize justice based on my moral standards. Are my moral standards consistent or inconsistent with yours?

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Sunday, March 5, 2006 - 7:54amSanction this postReply
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Stuart,

Ethics it neither good nor bad. It is merely a code of values to guide choices. A person who chooses to end his life is making a moral choice, but not a pro-life choice, thus he is making a choice based on his moral values at that moment. (Even Galt in Atlas Shrugged stipulated when taking his own life would be a higher value than living.)

I see this argument about choice to live sometimes. Yes, you do choose to live. But yes, an automatic drive to live comes prewired in all living beings. Both exist. Your moral choice to end your life can override your prewired automatic drive to live, just as your drive to live can override your choice to end your life. Think about all the failed suicides.

People get into all kinds of logical trouble when they try to obliterate one with the other. They come up with some amazing ideas like "automatic choice" and so forth to describe this automatic drive.

Morality is for the part you can choose. Biology is for the part you can't. Both are part of reality.

Michael


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Sunday, March 5, 2006 - 8:44amSanction this postReply
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Stuart Hayashi-

Thanks for one of the most thought-provoking posts I've seen in a while. (Of course I also enjoy D. Friedman-esque off-the-wall thought experiments though ;) )

I've grappled with this before and think the Objectivist view is vaild, and the real conclusion is that once someone has decided to consciously prefer death to life then all other moral bets are off. This really could mean that a suicidal person is a potential risk to others - though I think the risk is primarily from them being inconsiderate of personal or property of others, not willfully destructive of them. I think there is a rational, widespread but often implicit, fear of suicide and the suicidal because of this, and this fear underlies the overextensive and often misguided societal measures to discourage, prevent or outright ban suicide attempts.

However, despite the risk, the fact is that scenarios such as you paint concerning an elderly man deciding to go out with a bang are rare-to-nonexistent. I think that such truly suicidal people being intentionally destructive to others is so rare primarily because of two factors:

1) They still maintain holdover values from when they had chosen to live, and valued family and other people - I think this is very similar to what you're describing.
2) Mass murder is truly a distraction from their new goal. Seriously. If he really wants to choose death now, why would the elderly man waste time, money and effort on side values (vengeance? fame?) in planning and staging mass homicide, rather than just getting right to the business of his own final exit?


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Sunday, March 5, 2006 - 9:21amSanction this postReply
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Dean Wrote:
I think an individual's morality is dependent on what their highest values are/highest value is. I think an individual's values can change, and their moral system can change. I think an Objectivist is a person who chose their own life as their highest value. There are plenty of other things to choose as your highest value.
I think this is a very interesting idea here.  Perhaps the trouble comes in when life is asserted as the only "correct" choice.  Reading Rand I get the idea that anything else is choosing "death",  and I object to this.  Maybe this is better discussed in dissent perhaps.  Any clarification on this would be greatly appreciated

Saving a family member at risk (or even death) to yourself was argued to be justified in the sense that life would not be worth living without this person.  This is not the only scenario.  I believe that I value my life greatly, but would choose to sacrifice myself if (however unlikely) I was presented with the choice of sacrificing myself and saving my wife or children.  I do not feel that life would be so miserable after a death of a family member so that I wouldn't want to live, so I cannot justify the sacrifice in these terms.  So I value my life, but just not always at the top.

Is this a non-Objectivist position?  Is this viewed to be "wrong"?  I'm not looking to reconcile or justify my choices within Objectivism, just curious.  I think (still early) that I am at odds with a small amount of Objectivism, but am relatively new to the philosophy, so I am really not sure.

Bob


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Sunday, March 5, 2006 - 10:49amSanction this postReply
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MSK is a looter.

Mr. Bob Mac,

I think Aaron was going on the right trail of thought. In general, a person who is not interested in living long term is more likely to be a threat to a person who wants to live long term. So that is why I can call a choice not to live as immoral, because I am saying so with respect to my values (my own life and ability to enjoy it).
Reading Rand I get the idea that anything else is choosing "death", and I object to this. Maybe this is better discussed in dissent perhaps. Any clarification on this would be greatly appreciated
Basically, you can only have one primary value. To maximize the achievement of your primary value, other values must be sacrificed. Of course, you could value two different values equally, or 70-30, or 50-30-20 for three different values, measuring how much of your resources you give to each value. If you don't put 100 towards living, then you are choosing to die sooner then you could.

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Sunday, March 5, 2006 - 11:26amSanction this postReply
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Dean Wrote:

To maximize the achievement of your primary value, other values must be sacrificed.
Only if in an action is in conflict.

If you don't put 100 towards living, then you are choosing to die sooner then you could.
Not necessarily, and probably not.  A smoker for example, is much more likely to die sooner than someone with my value hierarchy.  My biggest question though still remains.  Is Objectivism asserting that individual life IS the highest value as opposed to IF your life is PRIMARY then.....  It seems that a great deal of effort is put forth (not as much here though) denouncing other values that do not put one's life at the top of the list and arguing that anything else is an improper, evil,  or irrational value system. 

Bob



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Sunday, March 5, 2006 - 11:27amSanction this postReply
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LOLOLOLOLOLOL...

Folks,

Dean is basically a good kid who has excesses of zeal.

Of course I'm not a looter.

Thanks for the bellylaugh...

Michael


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Sunday, March 5, 2006 - 1:16pmSanction this postReply
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Thank you very much for the input, Dean, MSK, Aaron, and Bob! :)

Aaron notes,

However, despite the risk, the fact is that scenarios such as you paint concerning an elderly man deciding to go out with a bang are rare-to-nonexistent.


I have to admit you're right. I never heard of a case of a lonely old person deciding to kill himself and those around him at the same time. The closest thing to a real-life example is the case of someone killing his whole family, or going on a shooting rampage, and then killing himself, like the Columbine killers.

Also, after wrote that post, I saw a link to Barbara Branden's "The Psychology of Suicide Bombers," and thought, "Hey, that relates to what I just wrote." I think Ms. Branden is correct -- the sort of suicide-bombing and kamikaze tactics we find with Palestinian terrorists, al-Qaeda members, and World War Two's Japanese fighter pilots are all the result of cultish collectivism.

I think I might be forming an answer to my own question. As Dr. Peikoff noted in Objectivism, if someone logically ascertains that he can no longer enjoy life, since he has a terminal illness or is in a death camp, then his decision to commit suicide can be rational. In most other cases, though, when someone is able-bodied and living under relative freedom, his decision to commit suicide is not probably not open to reason.

I think this raises the question of: When many young people feel so heartbroken by an event that they try to kill themselves, are they in a temporary state of insanity? If they are legally insane at this point, then they are not contractually competent, and thus it would not be an initiation of force to stop them (such as locking them away somewhere in a straightjacket). I imagine that Dr. Thomas Szasz would reject that thought. However, could it be said that a heartbroken 20-something is not acting within the realm of contractual competency when trying to kill him- or herself over something, but that a terminally-ill patient wanting a physician-assisted suicide can be determined to be acting with contractual competency in this decision? It would be interesting to explore where such lines can be drawn.

But anyway, since someone deciding to kill everyone else and then himself (such as Dylan Klebold and Eric Harris) are not open to reason, I guess it would be quite futile to throw any moral argument in his way once he has decided to commit his final rampage. That would be like saying to someone mugging you, "B-b-but, stealing is wrong!." A mugger would laugh at that; given that he has already chosen this irrational course, it is highly unlikely that his mind would be open to your reasoning.

So if Dylan Klebold and Mohammed Atta decide to kill me and then commit suicide, they are not open to any moral arguments anyway. The best position I can take is: If they are determined to implement this murder-suicide, then that's the way it is, but I won't go down without a fight. Dylan Klebold/Mohammed Atta will find that I will do everything in my power to make sure that they don't hurt me or anyone else I care about.

So someone who has decided to kill both himself and me has no use for morality. But since I I choose to live, I do need morality, and my pro-life morality tells me to defend myself.

So I still don't believe that it is immoral to not choose to live. But since most people choose to live, someone who chooses to kill himself and others had better expect his life-choosing victims to try to foil his plan.

Of course, there are some "former terrorists" who decided, at the last minute, that it was not worth carrying through on their suicide-bombing. That's good for them. But I believe that those people probably were not open to outside reasoning; their decisions to reject the suicide-bombing primarily had to come from within.

MSK observes,

I see this argument about choice to live sometimes. Yes, you do choose to live. But yes, an automatic drive to live comes prewired in all living beings. Both exist. Your moral choice to end your life can override your prewired automatic drive to live, just as your drive to live can override your choice to end your life. Think about all the failed suicides.

People get into all kinds of logical trouble when they try to obliterate one with the other. They come up with some amazing ideas like "automatic choice" and so forth to describe this automatic drive.


That's very interesting, because it reminds me of something that Dr. Rasmussen said that confused me.

In that same chapter from Dr. Younkins's Philosophers of Capitalism, Dr. Rasmussen says,

Branden speaks of the choice not to live. I do also, but in the passage quoted from "Causality versus Duty" Rand speakso f someone either choosing to live or not choosing to live. Strictly speaking, not choosing is not a choice. This is an important difference. Not choosing involves no course of action being taken. This is sheer passivity. There is nothing to evaluate.


I disagree with that passage. I believe that, in many cases, choice is inevitable, even if that choice is not consciously made. I believe the disagreement arises because I believe that there is more than one level of choices. There are (1) conscious choices, and (2) choices-by-default. A "choice by default" is a choice that is not consciously made, but something that can be still considered a choice given that someone had the opportunity to choose differently but did not opt to.

When I go to the closet and decide what jacket to wear, I make a conscious decision. I look at the different jackets and think to myself, "Which one do I want to wear?"

On the other hand, do I choose to breathe? It's not like I go around thinking, "I choose to breathe. I choose to breathe." I don't think those words; I just go ahead and breathe. That's particularly true of a newborn infant.

But I believe that an adult ultimately does choose to breathe. At any time I could put a bag over my head and suffocate myself. But I don't. The fact that I opt not to do anything that obstructs my breathing is a choice-by-default.

So if some lazy, self-pitying guy really hates his own life and talks about how much his life stinks, but doesn't commit suicide, then does he choose to live? Such a guy, I believe, would not be looked upon favorably by Ayn Rand. I believe Dr. Rasmussen would say that this guy is not "choosing not to live" but instead "not choosing to live" (a rather pedantic-sounding distinction in my book). However, I would instead say that such a man chooses to live by default. Since hasn't killed himself, life is his default choice.

I think this raises yet another question as well. Given how strong a bias most people have in favor of living (or, to be more precise, they have a bias against consciously-chosen suicide), is an able-bodied, free suicidal American a "broken unit"? By this, I mean: is a free, able-bodied person opting for suicide engaging in an action that is inconsistent with human nature?

Dr. Rasmussen said he presented his arguments "in the hopes of furthering a dialogue." I guess he got what he wanted. Talk about goal-directed action. ;-)

What do you think?



(Edited by Mr. Stuart K. Hayashi
on 3/05, 1:17pm)


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Sunday, March 5, 2006 - 1:53pmSanction this postReply
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  To maximize the achievement of your primary value, other values must be sacrificed.

Oh? Really?  To sacrifice is to place a lesser value over a greater value - if other values are being sacrificed, then your primary value isn't so primary, is it.

(Edited by robert malcom on 3/05, 1:54pm)


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Sunday, March 5, 2006 - 2:26pmSanction this postReply
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Stuart,

You wrote:
However, could it be said that a heartbroken 20-something is not acting within the realm of contractual competency when trying to kill him- or herself over something, but that a terminally-ill patient wanting a physician-assisted suicide can be determined to be acting with contractual competency in this decision? It would be interesting to explore where such lines can be drawn.
That is a very interesting question. It deserves to be studied, both morally and psychologically. I had a case where I literally forced my ex to go to the hospital to undergo surgery. This saved her life. She was in denial at the time. She thanks me for forcing her even today. This is one of the morally gray situations that life throws at you where you have to make a choice - one way or the other - and both seem wrong at the time. I believe that in the case of my ex, I chose wisely.

Now, to be clear on what I was talking about with biological drive and volition, it might be clearer to use another approach to explain it. In integrating concepts, Rand once mentioned that you cannot choose to completely abstain from integrating. That will happen whether you want it to or not. You can choose to direct it and exercise it on purpose. Or you can let it function in a haphazard manner. This is what she was saying as a choice to think.

You mentioned breathing. Can you stretch the concept "to choose" to cover breathing while you are asleep? I can't. I prefer to attribute my breathing capacity to two factors, not one. It is automatic. But when I wish, I can control it. Almost any doctor will tell you that. Some of the muscles involved are called "involuntary."

The choice to live seems to me to be like this. If you do no thinking about it, the automatic drive to live stays in place and you will seek food, rest, shelter, etc., more or less as the need arises. If you do think about it, you can choose over a spectrum - you can decide to live to your fullest potential at one end and end your life at the other.

One last point. When an attempted suicide stays unconscious in the hospital, he finally wakes up because this automatic drive to live has been working on repairing the damage. It helps brings him back to health. He did not choose that while he was unconscious. It merely happened because it is programmed that way by nature.

Michael


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Sunday, March 5, 2006 - 2:26pmSanction this postReply
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MSK is a looter, he uses altruism as his tool to create slaves. He consistently lies about it and acts like he is your friend.

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Sunday, March 5, 2006 - 2:47pmSanction this postReply
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Mr. Hayashi,

Thank you for this rich and sustained line of inquiry. I also appreciate the responses that have been given to your post here.

I wonder if Rand could handle the situation you pose---a man set on suicide and on killing others along with himself---in the following way. Would it be accurate to say that in Rand's account of the biological basis of moral value the fact that each individual life is an end in itself is presupposed by rational egoism? She writes: "By the grace of reality and the nature of life, man---every man---is an end in himself, he exists for his own sake, and the achievement of his own happiness is his highest moral purpose" (Rand 1957).

Could Rand say in response to your scenario that treatment of every individual as an end in himself is morally more basic than any other moral existential action one may take? That if one does not treat others and oneself as an end in himself, then any further, higher moral purposes are morally baseless?

If so, then as far as rational morality goes, Rand could say that the Buddhist monk in Saigon who incinerates himself---himself alone---for a political end is more moral than the suicide bomber who blows up other people for political reasons. Perhaps the monk is failing to treat himself as an end in himself (or perhaps he should not be such a political self), but at least he has not stopped treating others as though they were ends in themselves.

I put that all in terms of what Rand could (or could not) say coherently with her ethical theory. I don't mean to appeal to Rand for moral authority, only to focus on her theory, which is under question here.

Let me add one more point. Regardless of whether an individual committing suicide is doing so morally, immorally, amorally, with reasons, or without reasons, the rights of others against any attack on them remains the same. That is, interventions by others against the suicidal man that would normally, presumptively be wrong will be turned right by the circumstance of aggression against others in the suicidal plan. That turning of presumptively wrong act (intervention) into right act is a commonplace in our moral reasoning. Such wrong-turning-to-right is the structure of what are called rights to in the sense of "having a right." This is the basic relation of "having a right" to "doing the right thing." (There are additional, game-theoretic dimensions to rights, but I defer that to another time.)

I have not addressed Prof. Rasmussen's challenge in this post. Maybe later in this thread, I'll add something on that.

Stephen

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Sunday, March 5, 2006 - 2:57pmSanction this postReply
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Stuart-

Kudos! Your following managed both to make me laugh and was insightful:

"The best position I can take is: If they are determined to implement this murder-suicide, then that's the way it is, but I won't go down without a fight. Dylan Klebold/Mohammed Atta will find that I will do everything in my power to make sure that they don't hurt me or anyone else I care about.
...
So I still don't believe that it is immoral to not choose to live. But since most people choose to live, someone who chooses to kill himself and others had better expect his life-choosing victims to try to foil his plan."

Dean-

Whatever disagreements and arguments may be raging in another thread - are best left there.


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Post 14

Sunday, March 5, 2006 - 5:26pmSanction this postReply
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I have no intention in allowing MSK to continue deceiving individuals on this website. He comes in this thread with a benevolent mask to gather victims. I'm uncovering his mask.

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Post 15

Sunday, March 5, 2006 - 7:48pmSanction this postReply
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Dean, please grow up and stop this petty crap.  Michael  has always been very straightforward and consistent with his views.  He speaks only for himself and is not wearing any type of mask.  Translated into geekspeak, WYSIWYG.  Just because you personally disagree with some of MSK's views does not make him a dishonest person, nor does that mean he has betrayed you.  He hasn't.  You simply disagree.  He is not about to change for you.  I personally find him to be refreshingly honest.  He has an enormous amount of integrity and respect for people and most of his views mirror my own.  And yes, he is an Objectivist and so am I.   If you have discovered that you personally hate him, that is your issue.  He is not the enemy. 

Kat


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Post 16

Sunday, March 5, 2006 - 8:43pmSanction this postReply
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Kathy,
MSK promotes looting. He may have good intentions, but I'm not the type of person that cares about intentions when the person is continually doing something that is destroying me. I'm just calling him on it, making the fact that he promotes looting out in the open for everyone to see.

I still take into consideration what other decisions and actions he makes. I do not consider him the most vile person on the earth. But in this way, he is extremely vile.

I don't like labeling people as Objectivists or non-Objectivists, but I'd like to say this: MSK has taken a position that is clearly and directly contradictory to the basics of the Objectivist philosophy.

I am sorry.
Dean
(Edited by Dean Michael Gores
on 3/05, 8:49pm)


Post 17

Sunday, March 5, 2006 - 9:08pmSanction this postReply
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Stuart -- Take a look at Tara Smith's book Viable Values. Well worth reading even if you don't agree with her on this particular question -- a question that I am still uncertain about myself.

- Jason


Post 18

Sunday, March 5, 2006 - 9:25pmSanction this postReply
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My apologies to you Stuart, for joining in a sidetrack to the interesting thread you started.

Dean- You've posted the same link several times to the start of that thread, which has over 350 posts. Nobody who's not already read it is going to want to wade through to find specifically what you're referring to. If you sincerely believe there's pressing need to warn people about his views, can you directly link to or give numbers for one or two specific posts? Thanks.


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Post 19

Sunday, March 5, 2006 - 10:19pmSanction this postReply
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Stuart,

Excuse me for a parentheses. I really want to pipe Dean down a bit.

Dean, on Feb. 23 (yes, back then), in a continuation of the discussion you found so offensive (but not on this site), I stated: "I will no longer clamor for the creation of some kind of law governing 'positive rights' for now." I continued several more times to state that I went into "chewing mode" instead. I see a serious moral problem that is poorly treated in Objectivism and handled in an absolutely atrocious manner by those professing to be rational Objectivists. The recent political hysteria was fogging the real problem, so I backed off - even while not ignoring my moral outrage. I even owned up to reacting poorly to overly emotional kneejerks addressed to me.

But essentially, what I did was remove the discussion from where childish behavior like yours and others was not productive, and put it where the issue can be discussed intelligently among those who want to discuss. (You could have found that out simply by asking me, instead of weaving all over the place.) Since then, many fine and intelligent people - including highly respected Objectivists - who would not tolerate the environment you and others were promoting, have made some wonderfully insightful contributions.

My present position completely nullifies your complaints (and has for a little under two weeks). So if that does not suit you, just deal with it. Can we now let Stuart get on with his interesting issue? Several people seem to want to discuss this.

Michael



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