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Wednesday, April 19, 2006 - 7:06amSanction this postReply
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First off, in response to Sharon, who asked me, "Well then, isn't that what Ayn Rand meant by: nature to be commanded must be obeyed?  And if that is true, then we better get it right; or face that extinction?"

 

Contrary to the psycho-babble being taught today, that would have you believe that our psyches and bodies are, “oh, so fragile”; human beings are incredibly resilient by their nature. So barring the most horrific of scenarios (such as a worldwide nuclear holocaust), extinction is not likely at all. History has proved that human beings can exist, and continue to perpetuate themselves, even under the most horrific and irrational of personal philosophies or imposed political systems.

 

So the question is not so much a choice between life and death, but between merely existing, or truly living. Either a life in the literal sense only, clawing and crawling just to maintain existence, or a life to the fullest; where one can prosper, develop spiritually, and expand intellectually to the fullest degree of his desire and potential. This is the real choice that we face when we decide on the philosophy of life that we are going to apply (or accept by default).

 

Naturally it is rarely this stark of a choice, because there exist a myriad of philosophies; from the most primitive and abject forms of religious and/or political systems, to far more enlightened ones that have integrated a heavy amounts of rationality, thus allowing for greater human flourishing in spite of their inherent contradictions.  You see, when it’s all said and done, well before Ayn Rand formally developed the philosophy of Objectivism: it had always existed. From time immemorial, whenever a man recognized, accepted and acted in accordance with reality, he was in essence, applying Objectivist philosophy to his own life.

 

Everything else that has followed since, has been the history of the struggle between the men that seek to live in accordance with reality and their own natures, and those that either through ignorance or artfulness, attempt to cheat reality, or free-ride on the backs of those that don’t.

 

If tomorrow, every single person on earth that defined himself as an “Objectivist” or whatever variant of the word he likes (Randian, Post-Randian, ect .) were to disappear, the philosophy would still live on. For the application of this philosophy’s principles is the precondition for human existence. It is for this reason that I have never, nor do I now, measure the success or failure of Objectivisms influence within our culture, by the success or failure of the “formal” Objectivist movements as they exist within their splinter groups.

 

Whenever a man acts in accordance with his nature: there Objectivism grows. Wherever there is an achievement or a noble act: there Objectivism grows. Whenever a contradictory philosophy or religion becomes more enlightened: there Objectivism grows.

 

George

(Edited by George W. Cordero on 4/19, 7:58am)


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Wednesday, April 19, 2006 - 7:09amSanction this postReply
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And while I'm ranting a little bit ... let me get another thing off my chest that's been pissing me off lately: all this bullshit about what Objectivists should learn from the Christian churches.

These comparisons between mysticism and philosophy, as well as all this nonsense about what Objectivists need to learn from Christianity, are for the most part, an utter waste of time. While it is true that religion is a primitive form of philosophy, that is where the comparisons both begin and end, beyond that they have little commonality. The goal should not be, and cannot hope to be, the influence of the Catholic Church during the Dark Ages, but rather, the influence upon that Dark-Age culture that a Thomas Aquinas brought about.

 

Simplistic, easily grasped, and traditional forms of belief systems will always be the most prevalent type within a society. The majority of people will always tend to choose the default moral codes learned from their families and culture, and then go on about living their lives in the pursuit of their chosen passions and pursuits. Some type of primitive philosophy will always be the most common form that the majority of people apply in their daily lives. The world is not made up of philosophers, or even semi-philosophers, and thank goodness for that! To be honest, on the day of my heart surgery, I hope beyond hope that my Buddhist surgeon spent more time and energy on his vocation, than even David Kelley has, on his.

 

The proper goal of Objectivists activists should not be to emulate the Christian church in some vain attempt for mass appeal or conversions; but rather to influence those that set the tone for a culture: the intellectuals. The degree of success in this endeavor has as a by-product, an effect on the typical mores of that society; the result of which can become a renaissance within a culture. And this success is not measured by the number of full-fledged, self-described Objectivists, but by the number of people that have been influenced by these Objectivists, irrespective of their numbers. Besides, for the reasons I gave in my previous rant, overwhelmingly, most of the "activists" for Objectivism will always come from outside of the formal movement.  

 

So what do we have to learn from the mystics, very god-damn little.

 

George

(Edited by George W. Cordero on 4/19, 7:28am)


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Wednesday, April 19, 2006 - 8:15amSanction this postReply
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George,

Thanks for inviting me here.  Your anger is blinding you to the facts.          Do you think; that he who angers you, controls you? 

No one is talking about God here, or the supernatural,  or the mystical.  This is irrefutable hard science.  I am talking about the convergence of the mind and the body. I am talking about Humankind's nature being everything that you have said, and more. 

Please read Jeremy Griffith's carefully crafted essays.  There's no mysticism here, No supernatural,  It's humankind being the cooperative beings that we must be; because to do otherwise is to lessen our development as a species.  I think that you can take that to the bank,    and I don't mean The Nile Bank.

If you haven't looked deeply into the eyes of a baby lately,  take a risk.  Children make fools of us all the time.  Face reality.

When you're feeling better, please check out  www.rootsofempathy.org   It made Teresa so sick;  but perhaps you are made of sterner stuff.  Please take your argument up with  Griffith.  I have  a project on the go, and have to leave.

We are all better when we are loved.  George,    Babies will show us the way.  Who'd have thought they'd read  it first  on an Objectivist  Forum.  This is not the end of Objectivism; it's a fork in the road only.  That's how I see it.  Objectivists first, and then Humanity's Adult.  Life is perfect;  and Perfectly Reasonable.

Sharon

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Post 3

Wednesday, April 19, 2006 - 8:29amSanction this postReply
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Sharon,

With all due respect.

Hell no! The baby that is evolutionary psychology is not hard science. Griffith is a biologist (the only source of his credibility) and attempts to hypothesize about the psychology and morality of the *entire* species (though hypothesize is generous because the theories are largely unsupported, unfallsifiable, and untestable). It is an intellectual jack off, with supporting "evidence" from songs (yes you read right, SONGS!", movies (yup), pop culture (because why not), with just the right amount of science thrown in to make it *appear* logical.

John




(Edited by John Newnham
on 4/19, 8:41am)


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Wednesday, April 19, 2006 - 8:37amSanction this postReply
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"If you haven't looked deeply into the eyes of a baby lately, take a risk. Children make fools of us all the time. Face reality."

Look deeply into the eyes of a baby? Am I the only one here that finds that bizarre?

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Wednesday, April 19, 2006 - 9:08amSanction this postReply
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No, no, and I don't think you even have to be an Objectivist to consider this stuff flaky and bizarre.  What's more, I think it's kind of a rehash of the old anti-women's-lib types' idea that women cannot be "fulfilled" without experiencing motherhood.  Sort of like creationism's rebirth as "intelligent design."  A political agenda masquerading as science.

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Wednesday, April 19, 2006 - 9:31amSanction this postReply
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This "roots of empathy" seems rather altrusitic-leaning.  Mostly, though, it advertises lots of pretty words and happy thoughts with very little evidence of anything substantive.  I am also not clear if it is just for very young babies, whom I am convinced won't benefit from these types of teachings anyway because they are not yet at the conceptual level to do so.  If the children were older, they could absorb the lessons.  Otherwise, it is a fancy version of day care.

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Wednesday, April 19, 2006 - 10:03amSanction this postReply
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I appreciate your applying restraint in responding to this seemingly outrageous news.  This is cutting edge stuff.  Did you read Griffith's observation that science wins one funeral at a time?

Those pop culture notions are to attract the attention of  the general public.  Read the scientists who are working on this stuff?  Do you know their work? I don't, of course; but if you have creditable evidence, bring it forth, so we can draw our own conclusions. 

I gently have to tell you to read the Roots of Empathy stuff again.  It is the baby who is doing the teaching.  I realize that this could seem bizarre.  Have you heard of people falling in love with their babies?

 It only takes seven years to raise a baby.  Is a baby asking too much?  Go out and meet an infant today. 
 
I haven't read the Griffith essays for a week, now.  I'm going to reread them tonight. I'll put on my skeptic's spectacles this time.

How can reason argue with a closed mind?

Cheery bye All

Sharon

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Post 8

Wednesday, April 19, 2006 - 10:12amSanction this postReply
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Side point: Francis Bacon is the one who said "nature, to be commanded, must be obeyed."  That's why Rand always put it in quotes.

Peter


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Post 9

Wednesday, April 19, 2006 - 11:51amSanction this postReply
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Sharon,

I wasn't really angry at all, my "rants" are just a fun excersize in running my mouth and being mischeveous. However, as to talking about, "looking into the eyes of babies."

Well, I'll have you know that I looked into a babies eyes just yesterday, yes its true. You see I was walking through the woods eating a gallon of strawberry ice cream, when I came upon this starving, crack-addicted, and soiled-diaper baby. What I did then was kick him on his stinking butt just to hear him cry; then I continued eating the ice cream and walked away, - leaving the fat, big-headed little bastard to die near a wolf's cave.

However, later, I did come across an injured baby wolf. Him, I nursed back to health, and kissed on the nose. And when our eyes met, the wolfs and mine, we both smiled, and we understood.

... and that's all folks ...

(Edited by George W. Cordero on 4/19, 1:01pm)


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Wednesday, April 19, 2006 - 12:44pmSanction this postReply
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LOL George - you're a killer........;-)

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Post 11

Wednesday, April 19, 2006 - 2:13pmSanction this postReply
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I posted this to the "Cracked" thread, but am cross posting it here in hopes of getting a reply:

Sharon, I know you've had your hands full replying to everyone on this thread, but I thought Glenn Fletcher gave a really good reply (on the "Cracked" thread), to which you never responded. If you recall, he wrote:


Sharon said:
Humanity's offspring are humanity's highest value. It is our nature to use all our natural and constructed abilities to nurture and encourage the flourishing of this value.

The nature of nature is to expand and grow, therefore the adult human is not the end; it is the means for creating more.
And what, pray tell, is the highest value of humanity's offspring? By your reasoning, it must be their offspring. Is that how you see humanity? Is it our purpose to create more humans, whose purpose is to create more humans, etc.; a meaningless string of zeros going off into infinity?

That may be how you perceive your purpose, but it isn't how I perceive mine.

Doesn't what you're saying commit the same fallacy as altruism, according to which our purpose is to serve the happiness of others, who, in turn, must serve the happiness of still others, etc.? Why must everyone live for the sake of future generations, if the future generations have no right to live for themselves? What is the point of creating more human beings, if they are not allowed to benefit from their own actions?

- Bill

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Wednesday, April 19, 2006 - 7:18pmSanction this postReply
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George,

Sharon doesn't know you're almost as bad as me--(you got points off because you act like Hong is a Goddess. She is merely a Realist with an astute moral streak and a budding Romantic i.e. she owns a Newberry.)

But I understood. I just couldn't post quick enough.

Michael 


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Wednesday, April 19, 2006 - 11:56pmSanction this postReply
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George,

============
To be honest, on the day of my heart surgery, I hope beyond hope that my Buddhist surgeon spent more time and energy on his vocation, than even David Kelley has, on his.
============

I do get your point here, but all things equal -- I'd rather have a heart surgeon that won't believe that an artery could be blocked, and not blocked, at the same time, and in the same respect!

Ed


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Post 14

Thursday, April 20, 2006 - 12:08amSanction this postReply
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Sharon,

At times, I find you as insightful as all get-out. But on this infant thing, I find you -- to quote Shirley Mclaine -- out on a limb.

===============
Is a baby asking too much?  Go out and meet an infant today. 
===============

Met an infant today. Sure, we jibber-jabbered for awhile. Goo-goo, gaa-gaa -- you know the story (the same ole', same ole'). Made some faces, too. Yup. Played a little tickle-tickle, and followed it up with some gleeful hide-n-seek. Funny how their short faces with their big eyes and forehead appeals to us so much -- isn't it? 'Course, had natural selection selected against infant admiration -- we wouldn't be here right now, would we? But here's the pivotal point ...

Just because natural selection made babies inherently cute to us, doesn't mean they are our highest teachers. Yes, it's true, that they are undaunted with negative philosophies -- and in a literal world of wonder. Yes, it's true, that they are in a period of accelerated learning -- and their curiosity is without equal. Yes, it's true, that we could all stand to gain by maintaining the heightened curiosity of a child -- but, beyond that, what can THEY really teach US? Here, perhaps, is a better way to phrase the question ...

Does the parent learn more from the child, than the child learns from the parent? Is it even close?

Ed


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Thursday, April 20, 2006 - 8:01amSanction this postReply
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Bill, First

You're post # 11 is quite correct Bill. I did skim past Glenn's remarks.  I was too very busy yesterday, to reply.

Glenn was parsing my sentence too closely to experience the essence of what I was saying.  I'll try again to be more clear.

The key words growing and expanding refer back to nature's requirement for the human species.  I, as one of the human species, some of whom are also adherents of Objectivism, recognize  growing and expanding, not just in the narrow quantitative context that Glenn used; but in a wider qualitative context that we Ayn Rand calls  flourishing.

As an aside, I accept Ayn Rand's view of the ideal heroic person.  I think that she, and many of her adherents on this board didn't and don't  realize how it can be more inclusive. Please ignore, for now, that aside, in favour of answering the following question.

Can you agree with me, that the expansion and growing of one's flourishing, is what nature expects from the evolving human species? 

  

We have to begin with some tiny point of agreement, Bill.      Does that question serve?  If not, offer me an idea I can't refute.

Sh.





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Thursday, April 20, 2006 - 10:20amSanction this postReply
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John Newnham,

Thank you for taking a look at the Human Condition website. I agree John, that many poetic and artistic bits are quoted; but I took those to be evidence of humanity's angst with the way things were and are.  I listened to them as clarion cries for something better.  Ayn Rand wrote her novels to illustrate her solution to all these whinings and snivellings.  Children do it too, in hopes of improving their present conditions.

BTW be careful about casting aspersions on those who hear songs as evidence of fact.  Our own George claims on another posting  #117  on the neverendingstory of  the fallacy of naturalistic fallacy, to have heard a single two-word phrase,  "sing ".   I'm certain the voice was that big.

Now, what science would satisfy your need for rigourous concrete evidence, beyond this final statement in Prosen's foreward to Jeremy Griffith's essay: The Great Exodus?

                              "What I bring to the synthesis...are my confirming experiences and studies in empathy"       January  2006

I went to check out Prosen on the web, and on the first site given,  Taming the Bonobo: Primate Psychiatrist, Dr. Harry Prosen   at     www.cbc.ca   I found a transcript and an  audio interview with Prosen.  Have you heard or  read this also? 

To paraphrase Nelson Mandela; we are not afraid that it may be brilliant, we are afraid that it may be brilliant beyond belief.

Sh.

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Post 17

Thursday, April 20, 2006 - 8:36pmSanction this postReply
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Sharon asked,
Can you agree with me, that the expansion and growing of one's flourishing, is what nature expects from the evolving human species?
I agree that flourishing is a good thing, but only because it furthers one's life and happiness, not because it promotes the survival of the species or because "nature" expects it. Don't anthropomorphize nature; she has no expectations.

There is this idea that whatever nature "intends" is the good, and that we shouldn't frustrate her wishes. But nature has given us all manner of diseases and natural catastrophes that we have survived only by finding better ways of resisting them. Nature gives us three score and ten, and expects us to die and leave our offspring to carry on. But that's simply natural selection at work. Since life is a value to the living, it is a huge mistake simply to accept what nature has given us and not attempt to foil her grand designs.

We are far better off outsmarting the natural enemies of human life and happiness to suit our own individual purposes. We do this by means of scientific and medical progress, and by such things as artificial contraception and abortion, which enable us to enjoy sex without having to deal with unwanted, unchosen pregnancies that nature would otherwise impose upon us. We have no moral obligation to live for the sake of our species, which is the collectivist premise writ large.

Yes, nature to be commanded must be obeyed; but, if we want to further our own lives and happiness, then nature must be commanded, not just obeyed!

- bill

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Friday, April 21, 2006 - 3:50amSanction this postReply
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Ed, Ed, Ed

How disappointing for me, that your wonderful post # 14  sat there all of yesterday, UNREAD.  I don't know how I missed it.  A whole day wasted!

  How it would have energized me, when I was thinking no one else understood.

Am I showing too much enthusiasm?  Am I putting words onto your keyboard?  This is beyond a wonderful idea.  I'm going to post it as a question on the question list.  Unless, of course you or someone else, gets there ahead of me.

How much time have you spent over the years, with babies, Ed?   You can't make me believe that one encounter, alone, stimulated that question.  Fess up Ed.

Sharon

Post 19

Friday, April 21, 2006 - 4:42amSanction this postReply
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Hi Bill,

Thank you for that helpful elaboration.  That's where we will start, then.

First Agreement:  If individuals want to further their own lives and happiness, then they must not only obey nature; but command it. 

The Second Agreement: So now, I think we both will have no disagreement on what it means to command nature.  We could check out the 600 shelf of the Dewey Decimal System, and everything would be laid out for us so inclusively.
      Individuals who want to further their own lives and happiness, will apply the principles of technological science.

The third agreement:  This is speeding along very quickly for us, don't you think Bill?   Now, what does it mean to obey nature?   I'll suggest, you elaborate and rephrase, and then I'll agree. What does obey nature mean? Let's have another go with Melvil Dewey, and look at his 500 Natural Science and Mathematics section.            Individuals must embrace, with a clean and innocent heart, the proven facts of nature's domain. 

I have to include the part about the clean and innocent heart, because, unlike you and I Bill, there are many who are not truthseekers; who will try to corrupt the facts for their own purposes of power and control.  Just ignore that little aside.  I'm just throwing things in as asides, so that you will be privy to the little ideas that shoot suddenly into my mind.  I think that I complimented you once before, on your envious skill of being able to control your thinking.

I look forward to your response Bill.  Isn't this almost fun?

Sharon

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