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Post 0

Sunday, August 6, 2006 - 11:40pmSanction this postReply
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Hey everyone.  Just thought I'd mention a few software upgrades I made in the last week.  Now when someone tries to create a thread on one of the galleries boards (like Movies), it will tell them that they should add content via the gallery submissions instead of just trying to create a forum.  As a recurring question, it should make it easier for new people to get used to things.

I've remove the ability of moderated people to edit their posts, as it was an obvious loophole to the purpose of the software.

If you go to your preference page, you now have the ability to delete your own account.  It doesn't affect your posts or gallery items submitted, since I don't want to mess up the continuity of the site, but it does remove you from the Members page.

One of the more signfiicant changes is that I've added a new group for dissenting opinions.  People who are here to argue against Objectivism will be marked in that category and that will leave them only able to post in the Dissent Forum.  It allows people to engage them if they want, but we won't have the constant thread hijacking that we have now.  I will be making the final decision on who gets to join that select group.  I've already promoted a few people.  The goal is to keep this site as a haven for Objectivist to come together and promote our own ideals.  Those who find benefit in engaging anti-Objectivists are free to do so without having to worry about cluttering up the rest of the forums.


Post 1

Monday, August 7, 2006 - 12:37amSanction this postReply
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Joe,

Thank you for all of the hard work! The  idea of limiting anti-objectivists to the Dissent Forum is an excellent one. 

Jim 


Post 2

Monday, August 7, 2006 - 4:28amSanction this postReply
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I've already promoted a few people.  The goal is to keep this site as a haven for Objectivist to come together and promote our own ideals.  Those who find benefit in engaging anti-Objectivists are free to do so without having to worry about cluttering up the rest of the forums.
What a great idea!  Clever clever man.

Naturally, I assume you'll be extremely conservative with this option.....right?

From everything I've witnessed here, you've been extremely fair and patient, Joe.  I have no reason to think this option will be abused in order to steer ideas in a direction more to your own liking.  You've shown way too much integrity for me to think otherwise.

Well done!


Post 3

Monday, August 7, 2006 - 5:28amSanction this postReply
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Great idea, Joe. The thread hijacking by trolls was getting to be a real bother.

I hereby suggest that we all affectionately refer to the "Dissent Forum" as "Siberia."

Post 4

Monday, August 7, 2006 - 5:35amSanction this postReply
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Outstanding work, Joe!

Robert wrote:

I hereby suggest that we all affectionately refer to the "Dissent Forum" as "Siberia."

How about "Kant's Noumenal World"?

(Edited by Luke Setzer on 8/07, 5:53am)


Post 5

Monday, August 7, 2006 - 6:40amSanction this postReply
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Joe,
I greatly appreciate the work you've done on this site.
Thanks,
Glenn


Post 6

Monday, August 7, 2006 - 1:11pmSanction this postReply
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I second that!

Joe, btw, how do I update my email address in Preferences?

- Bill

Post 7

Monday, August 7, 2006 - 1:23pmSanction this postReply
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Thanks everyone. Glad you like the idea.

Teresa, I do intend to use this feature infrequently. I suspect I'll get many people who think I use it too infrequently as I'm sure everyone has people they'd like to see put into that category. Thank you for your positive evaluation of my efforts so far.

Thanks Robert and Luke. I'll let you two work out a nickname for that board and see which one takes off.

Glenn and Bill, thank you both.

And Bill, we removed the ability to change email addresses because people kept screwing it all up. If you send me a RoRmail, I can take care of it for you.


Post 8

Monday, August 7, 2006 - 2:08pmSanction this postReply
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I would respectfully suggest that before a person gets exiled to Siberia that he receive one or two polite and private warnings which clearly and explicitly explain what he seems to be doing wrong. This might maintain a high membership number and improve the quality of the discussion, both. 

Post 9

Monday, August 7, 2006 - 3:39pmSanction this postReply
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Joe Rowlands writes:

People who are here to argue against Objectivism will be marked in that category and that will leave them only able to post in the Dissent Forum. It allows people to engage them if they want, but we won't have the constant thread hijacking that we have now. I will be making the final decision on who gets to join that select group. I've already promoted a few people.

-- could be a good idea, to sequester dissent (disagreeable anti-Objectivists) in a restricted zone. I have a couple questions about the practice . . .

-- how does the 'marked' person find out he or she has been 'promoted' to the Dissent group?

-- how do the non-marked members know that a 'marked' member is now only able to post in the Dissent Forum?

-- who are the few people to have been 'promoted' so far?

-- is it fair to say that the 'marked' folk are persona non grata -- i.e., that they are not considered to be full members in good standing? If yes, how is this shown to the membership at large?


WSS

Post 10

Monday, August 7, 2006 - 4:24pmSanction this postReply
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Thanks for the hard work.  I assume that those of us who are really Objectivists can still post to the Dissent forum without promoting ourselves into it.  You see the problem...  Competing anarcho-governments aside, how about the discussion we had about The Thinker?
(http://rebirthofreason.com/Spirit/Art/Artist_23.shtml)

How many posts to Dissent can a Real Objectivist make before they have filled out their own travel papers and internal passport to Siberia, comrades?


Post 11

Monday, August 7, 2006 - 4:31pmSanction this postReply
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It's too late for you Marotta !!!! :-)

(just kidding)


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Post 12

Monday, August 7, 2006 - 4:47pmSanction this postReply
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I've just learned of Cal's being segregated to the "Dissent" forum. I strongly protest. Cal is one of the two sharpest scientific thinkers I've ever encountered in listland. (The other is someone who's never posted here.) I am much reminded of Galileo's being placed under house arrest by the Church.

I'm on the eve of departing for a scientific conference in Europe, and I won't be checking email or list proceedings at all while I'm gone. I hope the banishment will have been rescinded by the time I return, though I rather doubt it will have been. At any rate, I felt I should register my very strong disapproval.

Ellen

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Post 13

Monday, August 7, 2006 - 4:53pmSanction this postReply
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I just posted this on the OL board, too, in hopes of getting just a wee bit of clarification from Joe and Ethan about the meaning of the new "dissent" policy.

Let me begin by saying that I don't really have a dog in this race. There is no single, absolutely right kind of a forum: the rules for each depend entirely on the purposes of their respective hosts, and what they wish to accomplish.

An "introductory" forum trying to attract newbies and non-Objectivists might invite their fundamental challenges to Objectivism about the basics of the philosophy. There's definitely a value in that kind of forum.

By contrast, though, a forum intended for committed Objectivists, who prefer to probe and debate the nuances of the system, might well wish to exclude opponents and newbies, who sidetrack such discussions with questions and comments about matters that most Objectivists regard as "settled." There's value in that kind of forum, too.

I read Joe's announcement of the new RoR policy as an attempt to make his site more of a forum for discussion and development of Objectivist ideas by self-identified Objectivists, rather than as a place where non-Objectivists or anti-Objectivists may weigh in at every turn, demanding justification for basic premises that most Objectivists have already worked through. Now, if that interpretation is accurate -- and please tell me if it isn't -- I don't see anything wrong with it. (Nor do I see anything wrong with a more inclusive kind of forum, such as OL appears to be.)

And if so, I have to disagree with those who read some kind of Orwellian mind control into Joe's agenda of providing a forum for committed Objectivists, rather than for Unitarians, Christians, Buddhists, or others who wish to challenge Objectivism at every turn.

I also sense from the remarks by Joe and Ethan that there is an additional concern for the tone and manner of some critics -- not just for disagreeing with Objectivism, but in a disagreeable manner. Rather than simply ban such people, which they'd have every right to do, I think it's a mature alternative for them to provide a separate place for such people to say whatever they want, and to allow those who find value in their comments to engage them there...while sparing participants in the main forums all such distractions.

If that's a roughly accurate description of what the folks at RoR are trying to do, then what, exactly, is wrong with it?

Post 14

Monday, August 7, 2006 - 7:05pmSanction this postReply
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I've just learned of Cal's being segregated to the "Dissent" forum. I strongly protest.
I knew protests like this would happen, but not within mere hours of the option's implementation!

 


Post 15

Monday, August 7, 2006 - 7:11pmSanction this postReply
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I also sense from the remarks by Joe and Ethan that there is an additional concern for the tone and manner of some critics -- not just for disagreeing with Objectivism, but in a disagreeable manner. Rather than simply ban such people, which they'd have every right to do, I think it's a mature alternative for them to provide a separate place for such people to say whatever they want, and to allow those who find value in their comments to engage them there...while sparing participants in the main forums all such distractions.
Agreed.


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Post 16

Monday, August 7, 2006 - 8:04pmSanction this postReply
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Andre, I intend to use this for people who are consistently anti-Objectivism.  I have no intention at this point of using it on people who have some disagreements or who are completely confused by it.  So it's not a matter of "warnings".  This isn't a punishment for bad behavior.  It's simply a form of housecleaning.  In some houses, dogs have to stay outside so they don't dirty the rest of the place.  Same theory.  The previous method for dealing with them was to have them deleted entirely, which I considered.  This seemed like an opportunity to give those people who are interested the chance to debate until they pull out their hair.

As for private warnings or whatever, I've long since learned that there is no right answer.  If I send a private note, that person will make it public and scream that I'm trying to hide it.  If I make it public, it must be to humiliate them.  No exercise of authority/ownership is acceptable to some people.  So I stopped worrying about it.  You can't make everyone happy.  If people like the way I run it, they'll stay.

William, the marked person finds out when they try to post on another forum, and it doesn't work.  They get a message telling them that this site is for Objectivists, but they're free to use the dissent board.

Non-marked members find out who's marked because they always post somewhere at what a horrible atrocity this all is comparing my acts to Hitler.  I actually thought of having an icon next to their names, like a troll or dunce cap.  But I was told it might be too controversial.

As for who's been promoted, I don't really feel like dwelling on it.  Making that kind of announcement is like asking for feedback, and it's not up for discussion or debate.

An I believe persona non grata has a much stronger meaning than you're giving it.  Usually when objectivists bring it up, it's about people who people are not allowed to talk to, talk about, or acknowledge in any way.  Even a lighter definition wouldn't hold in this case.  They're able to continue posting in an unmoderated fashion (for now).  They just have to restrict their comments to a well-defined area instead of polluting the site.

Michael Marotta, to give you a short answer, neither you nor MSK have been promoted.  I think that says a lot.

Ellen, your opinion really doesn't interest me. 

Robert, thanks for trying to put things into perspective.  You're right, of course.  Those suggesting some kind of Orwellion mind control are obviously deranged.  I haven't banned anyone from discussing topics, or offering a dissenting opinion, or told people what they have to think.  I've simply prevented people from thread-hijacking and attention getting.  If they want to discuss the ideas, they're free to, but they can't expect us to stop every conversation to explain to them the fundamentals once again.

Teresa, I actually expected the cries of injustice to happen earlier.  Go figure.


Post 17

Monday, August 7, 2006 - 8:07pmSanction this postReply
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As for private warnings or whatever, I've long since learned that there is no right answer.  If I send a private note, that person will make it public and scream that I'm trying to hide it.  If I make it public, it must be to humiliate them.  No exercise of authority/ownership is acceptable to some people.  So I stopped worrying about it.  You can't make everyone happy.  If people like the way I run it, they'll stay.

bingo!


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Post 18

Monday, August 7, 2006 - 8:29pmSanction this postReply
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"Ellen, your opinion really doesn't interest me."

Haha. Well done.

- Jason

(Edited by Jason Quintana
on 8/07, 8:36pm)


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Post 19

Monday, August 7, 2006 - 11:15pmSanction this postReply
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Joe assures me that "[my] opinion really doesn't interest [him]."

I didn't imagine that it did, Joe. But I expect it does interest Cal. As best I recall, I haven't before told Cal in so straight-out a way how high an opinion I have of his knowledge of physics and of the history and methods of science. He is the poster for whose posts I always look first any time I check RoR proceedings, and I believe that he's the poster from whom people here interested in scientific issues would stand to learn the most. I have my own disagreements with Cal on various issues -- actually, including the analytic-synthetic dichotomy, though I agree with his assessment of Peikoff's presentation on that as poor. But I think it's a shame for Cal to be segregated as "an enemy of Objectivism," or whatever he's being classified as. I also think that if Objectivism really is "a philosophy of reason," it only stands to be improved by heeding the critiques of "worthy opponents" -- and that as an "opponent," one couldn't find a worthier one than Cal.

Au revoir,

Ellen


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