About
Content
Store
Forum

Rebirth of Reason
War
People
Archives
Objectivism

Post to this threadMark all messages in this thread as readMark all messages in this thread as unreadBack one pagePage 0Page 1


Post 20

Saturday, September 23, 2006 - 9:00pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Materialism is a Theory, not a Given

What is given is not the material, but the physical. These are two separate concepts. The physical is the bodily. The physical is the given. You are your body, your senses are bodily senses, they perceive other bodies and the aspects and relations and actions of bodies. The physical is the given in the same way that the perceptual is the given. We learn to break down percepts into sensations after the fact. Likewise, we have come to understand the chemical-material nature of the physical through centuries worth of scientific effort. Matter in the philosophical sense is that which is abstracted in contrast to form. Bodies are always comprised of some matter in some form. A silver coin and a golden coin may be identical in from but differ in matter. A lump of gold matter may be formed into a golden coin. The matter changes form. At no point is there no body present. The matter is not poured out of one form and then into another as is water from a pitcher to a glass. There is never any formless matter in physical existence, even if the form may be plastic and transient depending upon the time scale one is using as a referent.

The distinction I am drawing is not one that is commonly made in modern parlance, but is well know to the Scholastics, where it is referred to as hylomorphism. This matter is well discussed by Cardinal Mercier in his Handbook of Modern Scholasticism, a work that has long been overlooked.

23 September 2006, Manhattan
© Theodore Keer, 2006, All Rights Reserved.

(Edited by Ted Keer
on 9/23, 9:05pm)

(Edited by Ted Keer
on 9/24, 3:40pm)


Post 21

Saturday, September 23, 2006 - 9:11pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Non-Cartesian Dualism is NOT Objectivism

Ed,

Can you quote Binswanger at length? I would like to hear his description of Objectivism as a form of dualism. My arguments above are my own, and I call them objectivist, not Objectivism. But if what you say is true, he is no longer in the realm of Aristoteleanism.

Ted

Post 22

Sunday, September 24, 2006 - 12:01pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Ed wrote,
This is, in a sense, true. Everything has it's origin in the material world (ie. no matter = no anything). However, in another sense (that sense held by Binswanger), Rand's Objectivism can be seen as a non-Cartesian Dualism.

Whaddaya' think o' that?
Not according to Peikoff. He writes:
A philosophy [i.e., Objectivism] that rejects the monism of idealism or materialism does not thereby become "dualist." This term is associated with a Platonic or Cartesian metaphysics; it suggest the belief in two realities, in the mind-body opposition, and in the soul's independence of the body -- all of which Ayn Rand denies.

None of the standard terms applies to the Objectivist metaphysics. All the conventional positions are fundamentally flawed, and the ideal term -- "existentialism" -- has been preempted (by a school that advocates Das Nichts, i.e., nonexistence). In this situation, a new term is required, one which at least has the virtue of not calling up irrelevant associations.

The best name for the Objectivist position is "Objectivism." (OPAR, 35-36)
If I understand Peikoff correctly, he is saying that if Existentialism had not preempted the term, then "existentialism" (not "monism" or "dualism") would best denote the Objectivist metaphysics. In other words, Objectivism upholds a view of reality in which there is one substance -- existence -- which takes various forms like mind and matter or the mental and the physical.

According to Rand, matter is understood in contradistinction to mind -- the material or physical in contradistinction to the mental. See her discussion in ITOE, pp. 245-251. So, according to her, it would be incorrect to say that everything is material, since the proposition, "Existence exists" is not synonymous with the proposition, "The material world exists."

Nevertheless, there is no such thing as an immaterial spirit -- one that exists independently of matter -- unless you believe in ghosts. Consciousness requires a physical form and means of awareness. It requires a brain, central nervous system and physical sense organs. Without such a material basis, there could be no consciousness or spirit.

But the question remains: If, according to Rand, existence can be divided into the mental and the physical, then couldn't the Objectivist metaphysics be described as a "dualist" (if that term had not been corrupted by Plato and Descartes)? Although it's true that reality can be divided into the mental and the physical, it can also be divided into the animate and inanimate or the rational and non-rational, etc. There is no reason to consider mind and matter to be any more fundamental metaphysically than these other divisions, nor therefore to focus on it in contradistinction to some other equally legitimate form of dualism. I think it's best to abandon the term "dualism" as a description of the Objectivist metaphysics, as it is simply too misleading and nonspecific to be of any real value.

- Bill
.

Post 23

Sunday, September 24, 2006 - 6:57pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Good comments, Bill.

Ted, here is a link where I was expounding on these thoughts ...

http://www.solohq.org/Forum/ObjectivismQ&A/0164_2.shtml

Ed
[anyone else (eg. Bill D., for instance), feel free to chime in here]

Post 24

Sunday, September 24, 2006 - 7:15pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
This one's an even better link ...

http://solohq.solopassion.com/Forum/GeneralForum/0512.shtml#7

Ed

Post to this threadBack one pagePage 0Page 1


User ID Password or create a free account.