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Friday, September 21, 2007 - 12:28amSanction this postReply
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Did anyone catch Leslie Stahl's interview of Alan Greenspan on 60 MInutes last week. Stahl had a copy of Atlas Shrugged in her hand -- the one with the locomotive on the cover -- as she noted that Rand referred to Greenspan as "too much of a social climber." Greenspan replied, "I don't know how to respond to that. Everybody seeks the approval of others, so by that standard everyone is a social climber." Greenspan, the social metaphysician?? Well, at least he wasn't seeking the approval of other Objectivists. But that was probably because they don't have enough social influence to make it worth his while.

Yesterday, I just happened to catch the tail end of a segment on NPR in which a familiar voice was being interviewed. The voice said that the income inequality under capitalism was a threat to the system and that although he wasn't comfortable with government redistributionist schemes, something needed to be done to equalize wealth, if capitalism was to survive. Now this is just the kind of rhetoric I'd expect to hear from an NPR spokesperson or from people the station typically interviews.

The voice continued to talk about his own past as a jazz musician. Hmm. Greenspan was a jazz musician. And the voice certainly sounded like . . . could it be . . . was it really . . . Greenspan himself?! A few minutes later, my suspicions were confirmed, as the host thanked him for appearing on the program, and said that Greenspan was the highest ranking government official he had ever interviewed.

I often wondered how Greenspan rationalized his involvement with central banking, giving his opposition to it during his time with Rand and her inner circle. Now, the mystery is solved. If Greenspan ever was an Objectivist, he certainly isn't one now -- either economically, morally or politically. He is simply a garden variety Republican who believes that a modest amount of governmental intervention is necessary to steer the economy in the direction he thinks it should go.

- Bill

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Friday, September 21, 2007 - 6:29amSanction this postReply
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I have been very disappointed in his latest interviews.  Either he is senile, or perhaps he is suffering from the "I am about to die and now I get religion" syndrome.

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Friday, September 21, 2007 - 6:30amSanction this postReply
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Bill,
Thanks for bringing this up.  I also caught the comment about social climbing.  I tried to "spin" it to make it more palatable.  For example, his statement "Everybody seeks the approval of others" could be interpreted as "Everybody has someone whose approval they seek".  However, if you put what he said in the context of his other statements and actions, which you mention, I think Greenspan can be labelled as a "former Objectivist".
Thanks,
Glenn


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Friday, September 21, 2007 - 7:11amSanction this postReply
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I agree with all the above comments and with regard to equalization of wealth the essay by Paul Graham is the best I have ever seen on the subject. Don't forget that Greenspan will be on BookTV tomorrow.


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Friday, September 21, 2007 - 9:19amSanction this postReply
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The Book TV interviews are long and probing, as a rule. Maybe this one will shed light on these matters.

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Friday, September 21, 2007 - 9:22amSanction this postReply
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Bill,

I don't think Greenspan has represented himself as an Objectivist for a long time. I don't think it would have made a difference if he did. I don't understand how he could make statements like the one you mentioned, however, I don't mind the fact that we had a mild Chicago School-style Fed Chief for 18 1/2 years. It did more for this country than the Jehovah's Witness-style isolation of Peikoff.

Most Greenspan interviews are so boring, the only things you remember are the specific economic policy initiatives he wants to get across.

Jim


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Friday, September 21, 2007 - 11:09amSanction this postReply
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"...income inequality under capitalism was a threat to the system and that although he wasn't comfortable with government redistributionist schemes, something needed to be done to equalize wealth, if capitalism was to survive..."

Here's the thing.  Greenspan is not saying that he thinks income inequality is bad.  He is saying that people react enviously, and that their reaction is a threat to the capitalist system.  If you read his book (I still need to read it cover-to-cover, but I skipped to the part on income inequality...), he advocates education and immigration as ways to address income inequality.  He sees the inequality stemming from a shortage of skilled workers and a relative surplus of unskilled workers.  He is not advocating income redistribution.

It is not Greenspan's way to talk about how people should feel about things, or how they should react to things.  He is more of a realist.  Envy is a threat to capitalism.  You can either preach that people shouldn't be envious, or you can approach the problem in a way that takes human nature as a given.


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Friday, September 21, 2007 - 2:13pmSanction this postReply
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Laure: I'm sorry but this sounds to me that this is just so much Fed-speak again. No matter what group he speaks to it's possible for them to take away what they want to hear. You can read whatever you want into his words. It was revealing in one interview that he admitted that he always chose his words so that he could counter any arguments at a later time.

I feel sad.

Sam


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Friday, September 21, 2007 - 4:14pmSanction this postReply
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I feel sad.
Oh, cheer up, Sam.  It's not so bad.  ;-)   Have you read "The Age of Turbulence" yet?


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Post 9

Friday, September 21, 2007 - 5:53pmSanction this postReply
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Here's the thing. Greenspan is not saying that he thinks income inequality is bad. He is saying that people react enviously, and that their reaction is a threat to the capitalist system."
But on the NPR interview, he didn't say that the reason income inequality was a threat is that people react "enviously." He didn't use that word, because it would have placed a negative moral judgment on those who hate capitalism for the reasons he cites. Instead, he spoke as though the inequality of income was a defect of capitalism that needed to be remedied.
If you read his book (I still need to read it cover-to-cover, but I skipped to the part on income inequality...), he advocates education and immigration as ways to address income inequality. [emphasis added] He sees the inequality stemming from a shortage of skilled workers and a relative surplus of unskilled workers. He is not advocating income redistribution."
Of course, he isn't advocating income redistribution. I said that he didn't favor it, but immigration is not a solution to income inequality, because it tends to increase the number of unskilled workers, especially from south of the border, who are willing to work for lower wages. Economists often cite the influx of immigrants as an explanation for the recent increase in income inequality. Does Greenspan actually say that more immigration would decrease it?

In any case, the proper response is to stress that there is nothing wrong with income inequality and that opposition to it rests on a false egalitarian premise that confuses equality of results with equality of rights. Under capitalism, people get what they earn, and if they earn more, they get more. Even so, because the productivity of labor is so much higher under free enterprise, even those who are modestly productive can be very well off relatively to what they would have been under socialism or welfare statism. Relative poverty should not be confused with absolute poverty, for under capitalism, as the rich get richer, the poor get richer.

These are the kind of points Greenspan should have been stressing.

He is certainly correct that more education is needed. But he didn't come close to providing it, as he soft-pedaled his opposition to government redistribution on the NPR interview. He simply said that redistribution was something that he wasn't comfortable with, suggesting that it was one possible solution but that he hoped others could be found. This sends the wrong message. As someone with the "bully pulpit," he should have come out strongly against it as a confiscation of people's wealth and a gross violation of their rights. If he's really serious about solving the problem through "education," then the education should start with him. He should be forthright in denouncing such schemes and explaining why they are mistaken, not treating them as if they were one possible option on the table that would remedy a defect of capitalism. Inequality of income is not a defect of capitalism; it is one of its virtues.

Sam is right. Greenspan doesn't want to incur the displeasure of those who might disagree with him. His statements on 60 Minutes gave us a candid glimpse into his soul. He really does worry about gaining the approval of others, and it influences how he expresses himself -- in the kind of vague, fuzzy language that is calculated not to offend and can be interpreted however one likes.

- Bill

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Friday, September 21, 2007 - 8:46pmSanction this postReply
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Someone mail Greenspan another copy of the Fountainhead.  He needs to re-read it.

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Friday, September 21, 2007 - 9:06pmSanction this postReply
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"Someone mail Greenspan another copy of the Fountainhead. He needs to re-read it."

Hmmm, I don't think that would do it. He's made it clear his stance on Objectivism. In the book, he talks about his involvement with Rand, and how she showed him to think past numbers to larger social issues. But he says that when he was an early convert to Objectivism, he wrote, "like most early converts," articles about the broader principles, but as he matured, and learned the details, he started to have "differences."

Post 12

Friday, September 21, 2007 - 10:13pmSanction this postReply
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Greenspan sounds like he's been taking pointers from that cryptic, Plato-loving, Leo Strauss ...

In descending into the cave, the philosopher admits that what is intrinsically or by nature the highest is not the most urgent for man, who is essentially an "in-between" being--between the brutes and the gods. When attempting to guide the city, he knows then in advance that, in order to be useful or good for the city, the requirements of wisdom must be qualified or diluted. If these requirements are identical with natural right or with natural law, natural right or natural law must be diluted in order to become compatible with the requirements of the city.

The city requires that wisdom be reconciled with consent. But to admit the necessity of consent, i.e., of the consent of the unwise, amounts to admitting a right of unwisdom, i.e., an irrational, if inevitable, right. Civil life requires a fundamental compromise between wisdom and folly, and this means a compromise between the natural right which is discerned by reason or understanding and the right that is based on opinion alone. Civil life requires the dilution of natural right by merely conventional right.

Natural right would act as dynamite for civil society. [emphasis added] In other words, the simply good, which is what is good by nature and which is radically distinct from the ancestral, must be transformed into the politically good, which is, as it were, the quotient of the simply good and the ancestral: the politically good is what "removes a vast amount of evil without shocking a vast mass of prejudice." It is in this necessity that the need for inexactness in political or moral matters is partly founded.(27)
From:
Natural Right and History, pp152-153

Oh well. I guess we're not ready for the "good" then (i.e., for morality). And that would mean that it's our fault when our leaders, whether political or merely influential, have to lie to us (for the greater good that's to be achieved from this kind of a fraud).

;-)

Ed


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Saturday, September 22, 2007 - 4:50amSanction this postReply
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Post 14

Saturday, September 22, 2007 - 5:43amSanction this postReply
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With the New Left, Greenspan's in the background; with the New Right, he's in the foreground; but who is he on level ground with, at the bottom? That's not Hillary is it?

Ed


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Post 15

Saturday, September 22, 2007 - 7:38amSanction this postReply
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I haven't yet bought Greenspan's bio. I would be interested, however, if someone who has it would provide some actual, extended, in-context QUOTATIONS of what he said about Rand and Objectivism, rather than simply paraphrasing.

Same with characterizations about what he said in interviews; it's much more helpful to put his actual words between quotation marks, and to quote full sentences rather than sentence fragments.

This is the journalist in me speaking, from long and sometimes bitter experience.

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Saturday, September 22, 2007 - 9:41amSanction this postReply
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"I haven't yet bought Greenspan's bio. I would be interested, however, if someone who has it would provide some actual, extended, in-context QUOTATIONS of what he said about Rand and Objectivism, rather than simply paraphrasing. "

Fair enough; I don't have the book, but I'll get the exact quotation later today.


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Saturday, September 22, 2007 - 12:30pmSanction this postReply
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Thanks to "qtronman," the quotations are available here and here.

I'm the "legendre007" who commented on Part 2, by the way.

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Post 18

Saturday, September 22, 2007 - 3:21pmSanction this postReply
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I wrote originally:
"He's made it clear his stance on Objectivism. In the book, he talks about his involvement with Rand, and how she showed him to think past numbers to larger social issues. But he says that when he was an early convert to Objectivism, he wrote, "like most early converts," articles about the broader principles, but as he matured, and learned the details, he started to have "differences."

Here are the quotes I based this on:
Greenspan on Objectivism and Rand in AGE OF TURBULENCE (p.51-53):

"Ayn Rand had become a stabilizing force in my life....We agreed on the importance of mathematics and intellectual rigor....But she had gone far beyond that, thinking more broadly than I had ever dared."

and

"Rand's Collective became my first circle outside the university and the economics profession. I engaged in the all-night debates and wrote spirited commentary for her newsletter with the fervor of a young acolyte drawn to a whole new set of ideas. Like any new convert, I tended to frame the concepts in their starkest, simplest terms. Most everyone sees the simple outline of an idea before complexity and qualification set in. If we didn't, there would be nothing to qualify, nothing to learn. It was only as contradictions inherent in my new notions began to emerge that the fervor receded."

"One contradiction I found particularly enlightening. According to Objectivist precepts, taxation was immoral because it allowed for government appropriation of private property by force. Yet if taxation was wrong, how could you reliably finance the essential functions of government, including the protection of individual's rights through police power? The Randian answer, that those who rationally saw the need for government would contribute voluntarily was inadequate. People have free will; suppose they refused?"

"I still found the broader philosophy of unfettered market capitalism compelling, as I do to this day, but I reluctantly began to realize that if there were qualifications to my intellectual edifice, I could not argue that others should readily accept it.
Fair enough in principle, but: " The existence of a democratic society governed by the rule of law implies a lack of unanimity of almost every aspect of the public agenda. Compromise on public issues is the price of civilization, not an abrogation of principle."

He ends the chapter with this: "Ayn Rand and I remained close until she died in 1982. I was intellectually limited until I met her."

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Saturday, September 22, 2007 - 3:36pmSanction this postReply
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Sounds to me like Greenspan held Rand in great esteem.  

He wasn't an Objectivist, so the criticisms seem like a weird witch hunt to me.


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