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Sunday, October 14, 2007 - 2:46pmSanction this postReply
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Joel Osteen, who is featured on 60 Minutes tonight, is a leading proponent of what is sometimes called the "prosperity gospel," which teaches that God wants people to prosper in all areas of their lives -- including material success. He outlines these beliefs in his best-seller, Your Best Life Now, which has sold over 2.5 million copies since it was first published last fall.

If anyone hasn't heard this guy, they can check him out on Sunday morning. I'm in northern California and get him at 8:30 AM on USA.

- Bill

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Sunday, October 14, 2007 - 3:01pmSanction this postReply
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Bill, I agree with you that Objectivists should check out Osteen. Especially those who think that American Christianity is dominated today by dour fundamentalists who hate life on earth. The fact that Osteen and Robert Schuller -- another proponent of a similar very upbeat, very worldly "Christianity" -- have attracted enormous national followings (their church memberships are staggeringly huge) tells me two things:

1. The American sense of life pervades and shapes much of modern Christianity, rendering it far more benign than it used to be, and

2. some Objectivists' fears that rabidly anti-life fundamentalists dominate American Christianity, imminently threaten to take over the GOP, and are poised to turn the nation into a theocracy, are completely out of touch with reality. They need to get out more.

In fact, simply in terms of learning something about effective communication (e.g., the integration of abstractions and concretes, good rhetoric, excellent use of examples and metaphors to make points, etc.), Objectivists ought to study guys like Osteen. He is a brilliant orator and communicator. If we had a few like him, we'd dominate the cultural debates.


(Edited by Robert Bidinotto on 10/14, 3:03pm)


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Sunday, October 14, 2007 - 3:46pmSanction this postReply
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On the other hand, we also see very successful authors like Rick Warren and his best seller The Purpose-Driven Life who continue to preach self-abnegation.

Regardless of where they fall on the prosperity spectrum, such authors necessarily cherry-pick from among the many contradictory Biblical verses to preach their themes.

I also question whether Osteen and his ilk would have the moral and intellectual wherewithal to oppose vociferously and without compromise those who do advocate Christian theocracy.


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Sunday, October 14, 2007 - 5:00pmSanction this postReply
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In fact, simply in terms of learning something about effective communication (e.g., the integration of abstractions and concretes, good rhetoric, excellent use of examples and metaphors to make points, etc.), Objectivists ought to study guys like Osteen. He is a brilliant orator and communicator. If we had a few like him, we'd dominate the cultural debates.
Bob, I agree; the guy is as captivating and eloquent an orator as you'll find anywhere. In fact, I'd say that as a speaker, he's a veritable genius; if you ignore the religious part of his sermons, he has some excellent advice on practical living, delivered in a compelling and dynamic style.

Yeah, if only he were on our team! :-)

- Bill

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Sunday, October 14, 2007 - 6:11pmSanction this postReply
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Then there's Reverend Ike... remember him? he's still around....

http://www.revike.org/


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Post 5

Sunday, October 14, 2007 - 7:01pmSanction this postReply
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Luke (Post#2),

Yes, of course they "cherry-pick" from biblical verses. And more: They creatively reinterpret and "spin" the meaning of some of the worst biblical passages, transforming them into meanings much less harmful, and sometimes even positive.

And yes, let me add that of course they are filled with contradictions. But practitioners of various religions always have been, throughout history. They accept contradictions precisely to mitigate the deadly consequences of their more irrational ideas.

But this very fact implies that, for many, their overriding objective is life and happiness on earth -- and not the deadly, hand-me-down doctrines about self-sacrifice to which they pay lip service.

My point here is to call attention to how ideas like ours will actually permeate the culture. To expect a wholesale "conversion experience" to Objectivism on the part of billions of people is grossly unrealistic. It will take generations to nurture significant numbers of full, self-identified Objectivists. Perhaps hundreds of years to achieve cultural dominance.

But each of us lives in the here and now. What we can encourage and applaud, in the meantime, is the presence of key Objectivist premises, wherever we see them.

If a pro-life, pro-happiness, pro-success Osteen/Schuller version of "Christianity" continues to expand at the expense of the ugly, anti-life, Augustinian/Calvinist versions, that will dramatically expand the number of people who will think and feel sympathetically toward Rand's premises. It will make our job much easier to recruit among "spiritual" fellow-travelers than avowed enemies.

So, I'm all for encouraging Osteen's influence among already-committed Christians. Just as I encourage "reform" Muslims who reject fundamentalist, militant Islam and are fighting the jihadists for control of that religion. The rejection of the worst forms of irrationalism makes our job -- and our lives -- much easier and more pleasant.

One additional word. There are many discussions among Objectivists, which I find completely pointless, about the "true meaning of Christianity" or the "true meaning of Islam." Folks, let's remember something: These are faiths, not sciences. They are absolutely arbitrary and subjective systems of belief. Their doctrines are frequently conveyed in parables, stories, and metaphors, which must be interpreted in order to extract their "true meaning" -- hence, the profession known as "theologians." And hence, the pitched battles within these various "faiths" among those who proclaim their own interpretation to be the only "true" one.

Since religions are totally arbitrary anyway, and conveyed largely by means of parables and stories, there is seldom an unambiguous interpretation of their "true meaning." Therefore, if some self-defined "Christian" comes along and claims, "Jesus really meant, by the word 'sacrifice,' 'trading for a higher value'" -- or if some self-proclaimed "Muslim" declares, "Muhammad really meant 'self-improvement' when he used the word 'jihad'" -- well, that's fine by me. And if they can convince millions of others, more power to them.

After all, the fewer nutcase killers and gloomy martyrs in the world, the better. And more importantly: the more people will become open to our messages.


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Sunday, October 14, 2007 - 7:52pmSanction this postReply
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I just watched the segment. Very interesting. There's something going on in the culture. In my opinion, Joel Osteen is related to the fact that "God is not Great" is on the best sellers list. There is a large segment of the population that is unsatisfied with the ludicrous anti-life message of traditional religion.

Post 7

Monday, October 15, 2007 - 11:48pmSanction this postReply
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Joel Osteen is an uber-popular preacher, but what he preaches has little to do with what Jesus taught. Jesus didn't preach that bold, prosperity-conscious entrepeneurs would inherit the Earth, he preached that the meek would inherit the planet. Jesus proclaimed that "it's harder for for a rich man to get Heaven then it it is for a camel to get through an eye of a needle." I seriously doubt if  Jesus would approve of Osteen's interpretation of his Dharma.

Truth be told, Osteen's bastardization of Jesus' Christianity is much more extreme than the Libertarians' corruption of Rand's Objectivism.   


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Tuesday, October 16, 2007 - 12:18amSanction this postReply
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Robert, I don't really agree with your post #5.

I think I get and agree with part of it.  It's ineffective to try to convince other's that they believe in X or Y just because they say they're Christians.  There are countless people who interpret it to mean almost anything they want it to.  Let's deal with their real beliefs, and stop chasing the phantom of the mythical "Christian".

But now imagine some group of these self-identified Christians decide to pass a constitutional amendment that elevates the bible to the status of law, demanding we have to live by it.  What if it were the Koran?  I don't think any of us would sit idly by and say "We can't really discuss the true meaning of Christianity.  These books are purely subjective.  They can be interpreted any way you want.  If these people believe it's all about love and friendship, what's the problem?"

Certainly, some Objectivists might argue that elevating faith to the status of law might be bad. Or maybe that the laws might be subjective, which would be bad.  But these are abstract points.  If all you have is some vague suspicion that there might be some undefined negative consequence, how likely are you to argue effectively against them?

These books aren't devoid of meaning.  The religions isn't devoid of meaning.  There are plenty of religious hypocrites who get by in life saying they believe it while actually ignoring any particular part.  And sure, that's a good thing.  Better than them taking it seriously.  But it doesn't make the problem go away.  The religion isn't suddenly peaceful and friendly because some moderates refuse to take it seriously.  Allowing that hypocrisy to shield the religion just ties our own hands.  And when this hypothetical law starts being pushed, they can simply say that all our worries are baseless, as they really are caring, friendly people.  Would that make you feel safe?  Not me.

If they want to ignore parts of their holy book or their religion, great.  But let's point it out.  We don't have to argue that we have the "one, true meaning".  But let's certainly point out that they are cherry-picking, and ignoring whatever they don't like.  Let's point out that the crazy fundamentalists' interpretation is just as good, and probably much better as it doesn't ignore as much and is actually based on the book and not just using the book as some kind of ancient rationalization.  Let's point out that while they may find support of their beliefs in the bible, their beliefs are not based on the bible.

There's so much we could point out.  We can simply show that their attempts to rationalize their beliefs view religion is irrational.  That their beliefs in the supernatural is irrational.  That believing the bible is some god inspired book of truth is irrational.  That accepting promising, life-affirming principles and trying to find other-worldly justifications for them is irrational.

We don't have to pretend that religion is "anything goes", and there's nothing dangerous lurking in there.


Post 9

Tuesday, October 16, 2007 - 12:39amSanction this postReply
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One of my favorite quotes is: "Religion divides; spirituality unites." Esotericists who embrace the "Perennial Philosophy," see a single spiritual Reality as the essence of all exoteric religions.
For example, an Indian yogi perceives the same fundamental Truth being conveyed in the Bhagavad Gita that he does in the Bible. To the yogi, Jesus was simply a great yogi who Realized his essential Oneness in spirit with the Radiant Transcendental Life-Consciousness that is prior to and which subsumes conditional, or phenomenal, existence. What Jesus calls the Kingdom of Heaven, what Buddha terms Nirvana, yogis refer to as Self-realization or sahaj samadhi. 

Joel Osteen doesn't have a clue about the the mystical spirituality that Jesus taught. What Jesus taught, in essence, was Holy Communion (or the practice of unobstructed presence and connectedness to the Transcendental Life Force) and reception of the Holy Spirit (the descending power of the Divine Being.) Real Christianity has nothing to do with belief in Jesus; it has everything to do with Realizing one's own inherent Divinity, or "Christ Consciousness."                      


Post 10

Tuesday, October 16, 2007 - 2:29amSanction this postReply
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True spirituality is neither rational nor irrational; it is supra-rational. A mind that employs logic to measure the universe {that which has been measured out}can said to be rational--but because true spiritual practice transcends the mind (so as to allow the Immeasurable to Outshine all mental modifications or formations), it can't be categorized as rational or irrational, epistemologically speaking.

True spiritual practice is, however, "rational" or "logical," ontologically speaking. This is because true spiritual practice, or real meditation, is based on non-contradictory ontological identification with Reality (The Self-existing, Self-radiant Divinity).

You cannot become That which you always already are. All effort involves becoming. As the Buddha taught, "So a man thinketh, thus he becometh. Nirvana is the end of becoming."
Therefore, true spiritual practice, real meditation, is effortless being--or non-seeking, or what a Christian hermeticist would call unconditional self-surrender. Jesus summarized this "disposition" with the pithy statement: "Be still and know I AM God." In other words, Jesus was saying: stop becoming and just BE; A=A, ontologically (or spiritually) speaking.  

There is esoteric or "inner" Christianity, and there is exoteric or "outer" Christianity. In "outer" Christianity, there are: the fundamentalists, the highly moralistic, life-force- suppressive Christians, and there are the liberals, the minimally moralistic, life-force- expressive Christians (like Osteen). But only "inner" Christianity sheds light on the true meaning of  Jesus' teachings.   


Post 11

Tuesday, October 16, 2007 - 4:32amSanction this postReply
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New Age thought has invaded exoteric, or conventional, Christianity; so nowadays a hip Christian minister like Osteen sounds more like Wayne Dyer than like Billy Graham. Themes involving personal growth and material prosperity are interwoven with the Gospel, and the central message now is abundance and joy on Earth rather than eternal damnation for "sinners."    

Esoteric, or occult, Christianity will always be beyond the grasp or interest of the masses; so from my perspective, the confluence of  mainstream Christianity with trite New Age thought in the persons of preachers like Osteen is socially positive because it serves to implicitly counteract the anti-life message of Christian fundamentalism.


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Post 12

Tuesday, October 16, 2007 - 5:38amSanction this postReply
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Ronald L. Gardner,
True spirituality is neither rational nor irrational; it is supra-rational. A mind that employs logic to measure the universe {that which has been measured out}can said to be rational--but because true spiritual practice transcends the mind (so as to allow the Immeasurable to Outshine all mental modifications or formations), it can't be categorized as rational or irrational, epistemologically speaking.
I would classify your "true spiritual practice" as bullshit epistemologically. There does not exist a thing that we can interact with that cannot be measured.

Post 13

Tuesday, October 16, 2007 - 9:02amSanction this postReply
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There does not exist a thing that we can interact with that cannot be measured.

Very true - to exist is, by its nature, to be measurable.....


Post 14

Tuesday, October 16, 2007 - 10:39amSanction this postReply
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Dean, real, or radical, spirituality doesn't involve faith or belief. In fact, it  doesn't involve an "Other" or object of of attention, to measure or not to measure. Real, or radical (or "gone to the root") spirituality is perfectly "Subjective" in the sense that one can only Be It, not know "It." The "Method" of  the radical Buddhas, as I previously stated, is ontological identification, not epistemological identification.

Anybody who can effortlessly transcend, or obviate, the self-contraction, the moment-to-moment habit-pattern of contracting one's field of awareness by incessant mental grasping--which creates successive limited states of consciousness (or becoming), will spontaneously Realize the Immeasurable as his own fundamental, irreducible True Nature. A=A. You are either "It" (the Transcendental Self) or you are not "It." If you are "It," it takes no effort to Realize or Be "It."

In Zen and other non-dual spiritual practices, the direct "method" is no-method because there is nothing to be attained or measured.You cannot become a Buddha, you can only be one. Therefore, the direct method in Zen is effortless awareness, which "undoes" the self-contraction generated by  habitual grasping and clinging and which allows the radiant Buddha (or Self)-nature to Outshine the empirical, or conditional, self.

What's wonderful about Zen and other forms of true, or radical, spirituality is that there is nothing to believe or accept. One can choose to do the radical "practice" or "discipline" and find out for oneself if there really is transcendental, spiritual Reality that antecedes and supersedes one's conditional, or phenomenal, self. Or one can maintain ignorant opinions about something one has never directly investigated.

Robert, if the universe, or the measurable, emanated spacetime continuum, is subsumed by a Transcendental Existent (or Being), if every thing, or existent, that arises is a modification or derivative manifestation of that Transcendental Reality, then it would be impossible to measure or define that Reality because it could not be reduced to an Object and conceptually known.

(Edited by Ronald L. Gardner on 10/16, 10:57am)


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Post 15

Tuesday, October 16, 2007 - 11:21amSanction this postReply
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Joe (post #8), to clarify my earlier post:

First, there certainly are broad points of doctrine that define a religion and differentiate it from others. For most practitioners of Christianity, for example, those beliefs are summed up in the Nicene (or Apostles') Creed.

Second, I don't dispute what you are saying about fundamentalist -- or what I prefer to call "literalist" -- interpretations of various religious texts. Interpreted literally, the texts of various religions are filled with irrational, ugly, life-destructive, and evil ideas, mixed in with some valid teachings (e.g., promoting honesty, forbidding theft and aggression, etc.).

Third, I also do not reject the tactic of confronting, when contextually appropriate and useful, what I call the more "contextualist" believers of various religions with the literal meaning of their religion's teachings, and asking them: "Is this what you mean and want?" Sometimes, that's a very good rhetorical and persuasive tactic -- if the goal is to move them away from their religion, and not to encourage their more consistent practice of it (which could happen, if you aren't careful!).

However, my point was narrower: that a given "religion" -- that is, what people actually believe and practice -- involves the interpretation of the seminal texts that gave rise to those beliefs and practices. We have to distinguish between the texts themselves and the (often competing) religions and sects that arise from their interpretation.

For example, Muhammad said many absolutely vile things and (possibly) a few valid things. But "Islam," as a "religion," is what people actually happen to believe about Muhammad's teachings and choose to practice, in reality. Millions of "moderate" Muslims have, as a matter of their religious beliefs and practices, interpreted Muhammad's words in relatively benign ways. Meanwhile, millions of Muslim literalists/fundamentalists, such as the Wahhabists, have interpreted and accepted Muhammad's words literally and at face value, in all their ugliness. The same can be said of the Bible of Christianity and its interpreters.

So, why is it that many Objectivists, yourself included, appear to be (at least tacitly) accepting the fundamentalists' view of their respective religions as the only valid interpretation?

Implicit in this approach is the premise that there can be only one true Islam or one true Christianity -- that of the literalists/fundamentalists. But this denies the reality of billions of competing religious factions and sects. Is there only one true Islam? Then what do we call the Sunni and Shia schools (and Sufi practitioners within both Muslim branches)? Which of these is not valid? Which of their followers are or are not "Muslims"? Likewise, is there only one true "Christianity"? If so, which of the following are not valid as "Christian" religions: Catholic, Presbyterian, Methodist, Congregationalist, Anglican, Baptist, Mormon, Jehovah's Witness, Lutheran, etc., etc.?

As a practical matter, Objectivists should reject the foundational premises of faith and supernaturalism that are accepted by virtually all religions; and simultaneously, we should reject the core, irrational ideas that define and distinguish various religions from each other. But we should not presume to take sides in the literalist/contextualist schisms, debates, and warfare that afflict virtually every religion (and every philosophy, too). We can also, as a practical rhetorical tactic, spell out to the "moderates" of various faiths the literal meaning of specific doctrines and teachings of their respective religions -- if and when we think that tactic might help an individual repudiate his religious beliefs.

But I don't think it's our place to get down in the weeds of internal religious conflicts and, in effect, to take the side of their fundamentalist interpreters. Do we really want to tell moderate Muslims that they are hypocrites -- that consistency demands that they accept the virulent and violent Wahhabism of al Qaeda as the only "true" Islam? If so, we are giving aid and comfort to Osama bin Laden, who is telling them exactly that message.

Likewise, do we really wish to tell the nicer, more benevolent, more worldly Christians that Joel Osteen and Robert Schuller are phony Christians, and that to be consistent, they should instead follow the ravings of dour, anti-life fundamentalist preachers like Jimmy Swaggart?

Let's leave it to the practitioners of religions to define their own beliefs and to compete over theological interpretations. Our job is to spread Objectivism's rational, life-affirming individualism in order to create a better world. And in doing so, we should applaud and encourage those within any religionwho are spreading valid premises, to the extent that they do so.

We must keep our eyes on the prize: a more rational world. The more people who accept rational ideas -- even if inconsistently -- the better our world will be, and the happier and safer we will be.



(Edited by Robert Bidinotto on 10/16, 11:22am)

(Edited by Robert Bidinotto on 10/16, 11:26am)


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Wednesday, October 17, 2007 - 9:09pmSanction this postReply
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I quite enjoy watching Osteen, too. Every Sunday night on tv I make time to watch his sermons, or what I would called; sessions. It would be nice if the Christian world followed his ethos instead of nut jobs like Rod Paisley and Benny Hinn.

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Post 17

Friday, October 19, 2007 - 7:39pmSanction this postReply
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Robert B.,

Sorry for the delay in response.  I wanted to address a few of the points you brought up.

First, you suggest we should let religious practitioners compete over theological interpretations.  But your own terminology is biased.  You talked about fundamentalists as "literalists", and the moderates (for lack of a better word) as "contextualists".  I don't agree with either.  You're suggesting that the fundamentalists are taking the various parts (sentences, paragraphs, whatever) of the bible out of their proper context, and the moderates are somehow viewing each part in the broader context.  One immediate problem is that you're already siding with the moderates in terms of theological interpretation, something you keep stating we shouldn't do.  But it's clear that you're suggesting one group is dropping context and the other isn't.  That's clearly biased.

But it's wrong for another reason.  The moderates are not keeping the fuller context.  They're simply dismissing the parts that they don't like, or pretending that they are "metaphors", or that they're not supposed to be taken seriously and are more to stimulate thought.  They're not looking at it from a larger context.  They're just pretending it means what they want it to mean.  They're subjectivists.

Instead of talking about the bible, let's talk about the Constitution of the United States.  There are a few ways of interpreting it as well.  There are the literalists, which we could call the Fundamentalists of the Constitution, as they are the epistemological equivalent of the religious fundamentalists (literalists).  And the major other group these days is the "living document" supporters, which view the Constitution as more of a set of guidelines.  These are the equivalent of religious moderates, who view whatever they want to view in the bible (general welfare clause or interstate commerce clause), ignore what they don't like (2nd, 9th, and 10th amendments), and don't take some parts very seriously (almost everything else).

Are these "living document" supporters contextualists?  If someone called them contextualists, wouldn't it give them much more support than they deserve?  I think you're supporting the religious moderates in this way.

What would a contextualists look like?  David N. Mayer wrote his book "The Constitutional Thought of Thomas Jefferson".  He describes a contextual view of the Constitution, integrating the words with the purpose and knowledge behind it.  While different from the literalists interpretation of the Constitution, there's little doubt someone who took it that seriously would be lumped into the same group, being called a fundamentalist.  If someone took a truly contextual view of the bible, they would also be a fundamentalist.  Those people who do try to interpret the bible in a more contextual manner are fundamentalists.  Not every fundamentalists is a moron who follows the bible blindly.  There are some who take it very seriously, through decades of study, not ignoring any of it, not trying to rationalize their own wishes for what it means, and forming an integrated view based on texts.  And they are fundamentalists.

So I think your word choice is biased and does exactly what you claimed we shouldn't do.

There's another point I want to address. You ask whether we want to tell the more life-affirming religious people that they are the hypocrites and the anti-life people are correct.

Let me start by saying that we should never distort reality in the hopes of sending "the right message".  If the bible is a noxious guide to self-sacrifice and violence, we shouldn't pretend otherwise to try to lend support to those who would distort it.  Similarly, if the Koran is a nightmare of violence and cruelty, we shouldn't pretend otherwise.  You can argue whether these characterizations are correct, or if there is some room for interpretation, or whatever, but facts are facts.  We can't work towards a rational world by favoring irrationality, even if it is a more life-affirming kind.

Of course, it's one thing to state that honesty and rationality are virtues, but it's another to point out how in any particular choice, they lead to better results.  What's wrong with distorting reality just a little in this one case?  Why not sacrifice the truth in order to give moral support to the lesser of two evils?

I think there's lots of reasons.

First, we'll be supporting a process of thinking that is irrational.  We'll be saying it's moral to distort reality if you get positive results.  How long will that go without hurting our promotion of reason?

Second, if the Bible and the Koran are really bad books, we'll be lending support to them.  We may encourage people to read them more carefully, to immerse their children in them, to push for religious schools to teach it, etc.  While we may want to support the more life-affirming, distorted views, we could simply end up giving support to the books themselves.  And if these books are objectively bad, more support for them would be a bad thing.  Some of it is going to be accepted as true.

Third, we would be supporting the people who don't really believe in these religions, but don't want to explicitly reject them.  We would be helping to make it hard for atheists to come out of their intellectual closets.  We would support the idea that even if you don't believe, you should still pay lip service to the religion.  We'd be saying that it doesn't matter what you believe or don't believe, you can still identify yourself as religious, and so make it appear that there are significantly fewer atheists in the world than there are.  We'd be robbing atheists of the moral support that they need.

Fourth, I really think it's dangerous to pretend that the moderates have the correct interpretation of the Bible or the Koran.  They don't.  And by acting as if they do, we treat the religion as less dangerous than it is.  We pretend that the fundamentalists are just crazy people who are misinterpreting it all.  Or rednecks.  Or idiots.  We underestimate their position.

Fifth, between any two groups that share a premise, the more consistent wins, or so Rand thought.  For those who think the bible is the word of god and the truth, who wins?  Those who really believe it, or those who only pay lip-service and try to cash in on the respect it has, while sticking with their own subjective positions?

Sixth, we would be losing an opportunity to convince the moderate religious to give it up entirely.  We could be showing them that their more secular ideas are actually pretty good and reasonable, and the only thing holding them back is their attempts to rationalize them with the bible.  But if we pretend that they are proper view of the bible, we give the bible credit for every rational premise they hold.  We make it seem like the best ideas they have are really because they are religious.  I find it much easier to let reason and reality take the credit for their better ideas, and show that they didn't find any of that in their holy books.  By pretending, we'd strengthen their resistance to a truly objective world-view.

I could go on.  Some of these are abstract and riddled with secondary consequences.  Like all cases where irrationality seems like a good choice, the benefits are clear and immediate, and the consequences are widespread and hard to pin down.

In general, I agree with the notion that we shouldn't be focusing on how to best interpret the bible.  There are contradictions and vague areas, and room for different views.  I agree it's arbitrary, and we don't gain from trying to pick sides there.  But that doesn't mean that we can pretend that Christianity or Islam or any other religious completely lacks identity, and anything goes.  It doesn't mean we can pretend that the moderates are just as serious about the bible as the fundamentalists are.  Sure, let's not get lost in arguing over the arbitrary.  But equally, let's not ignore the objective nature of it in order to avoid taking sides (or for the dubious purpose of taking sides with the moderates).


Post 18

Friday, October 19, 2007 - 8:18pmSanction this postReply
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The thing about Osteen is that he is taking Christianity from the hell fire and damnation obsession crowd to the more practical and secular idea of creating prosperity to enhance ones ability to enjoy life in the here and now. I agree with %96 of your post Joe, I just find Osteen to be a much needed transition from kooked out Christian fanaticism to a more 'common sense' Christianity.

Post 19

Saturday, October 20, 2007 - 7:15amSanction this postReply
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There's some confusion here, Joe, in how you interpreted (hahahaha) my text. I'll get back to you on this shortly.

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