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Post 20

Wednesday, November 28, 2007 - 1:38pmSanction this postReply
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Sure there is an element of the game to it, and also as Joe said in viewing as a "sport" of some kind, but the reality is, most "professional" gamblers make a living by ripping off suckers - that is a cold, hard fact.

Post 21

Wednesday, November 28, 2007 - 2:27pmSanction this postReply
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In days of yore, when young and ignorant of many applications of philosophical things, I used to play poker - played it good, actually, enough to could have made a living at it if so wished [and believe it or not, learned it from Maverick, to begin with anyway]...  but that in no ways removes the question, in light of now knowing more of the flourishing of life, 'what makes it entertaining such that would prefer it to other, more productive uses of my scarce time of my life?'  Life does consists of making choices - to what benefit is it to one's life to be a professional poker player - and don't say financial, as that would be like saying one had a very satisfactory life selling tires [Family Man ?]... skill? - well, properly, is means to ends..... what enrichment is gained that makes it different from Michael Douglas' character in Wall Street

And yes, play board games on occasion - again, as means to ends, being as a change of pace from routines, and still actively engaging the mind [preference being GO-MOKU, which oft play in the evening, to relax - and when playing against self, is harder, for knowing the other side's moves]...

(Edited by robert malcom on 11/28, 2:31pm)


Post 22

Wednesday, November 28, 2007 - 2:33pmSanction this postReply
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Sure there is an element of the game to it, and also as Joe said in viewing as a "sport" of some kind, but the reality is, most "professional" gamblers make a living by ripping off suckers - that is a cold, hard fact.

Well, then, provide evidence. What you call a "sucker" I call someone with inferior talent. Using the above, anyone who loses in a game would be considered a sucker. Dictionary.com defines a sucker as "a person easily cheated, deceived, or imposed upon." Where is your evidence that professional poker players make their living solely off of these people? The pros I see on TV surely don't fit this definition.

Post 23

Wednesday, November 28, 2007 - 2:36pmSanction this postReply
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to what benefit is it to one's life to be a professional poker player

Each pro would make that choice for himself of course. You seem to be implying that there is intrinsically no possible benefit to being a professional poker player. I've stated several that I could imagine above. However, this is all besides the point. Value implies a valuer. The valuer decides what is of value to him.
(Edited by Jordan Zimmerman on 11/28, 2:38pm)


Post 24

Wednesday, November 28, 2007 - 2:43pmSanction this postReply
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And yes, play board games on occasion - again, as means to ends, being as a change of pace from routines

Well, my values don't match yours. I play games all the time. I play several hours of video games a night, quickie games of Puerto Rico Online throughout the day and various multi-hour board games 2-3 times a month.

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Post 25

Wednesday, November 28, 2007 - 3:01pmSanction this postReply
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Anything can be a 'value' - just, as ye stated, needs a valuer..... BUT - that does not make it a viable value, which is the clue for a rational being, one who seeks to flourish...

Post 26

Wednesday, November 28, 2007 - 3:12pmSanction this postReply
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Anything can be a 'value' - just, as ye stated, needs a valuer..... BUT - that does not make it a viable value, which is the clue for a rational being, one who seeks to flourish...

The act of playing poker doesn't violate the trader principle. I believe a person can rationally value the game enough to want to make a career out of it. I have plenty of empirical evidence for this as well. It's up to you to show that it's an irrational value.

Post 27

Wednesday, November 28, 2007 - 4:13pmSanction this postReply
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Jordan,

I'm curious about what you think of the example Joe gave of his friend. I agree that the TV players aren't looking for suckers, and that they can be very exciting to watch. They also aren't betting their own money. Prize money is supplied by sponsors.  Joe's friend, on the other hand, really is looking for suckers to cash in on.   The way Joe described the guy (who describes himself as a "professional" player) I find it difficult to think he's being rationally selfish.  

On the other hand, there are "professionals" of all sorts, stripes, and colors who use their skill to "take" from others. Doctors, plumbers, mechanics, landlords, lawyers, football players, agents, all kinds of people who manipulate others into giving them their money.  Is it the fault of the profession, or of the man?  I think it's the man, so maybe it's a mistake to blame the game of poker, or engaging in the game of poker as a profession.

Jordan mentioned a problem with intrinsicism over the critical view of poker as a profession, and I think he may be correct.  Is he correct?


Post 28

Wednesday, November 28, 2007 - 4:34pmSanction this postReply
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I'm curious about what you think of the example Joe gave of his friend.

I believe Joe is referring to a generic "gambler" who is trying to get past rules set up by Casinos. This person is a cheat and not a value producer.

They also aren't betting their own money.

Actually, they usually are. The big tournaments have entrance fees (in the many thousands of dollars). Of course, the big names get in by winning in lower tournaments. But, the principle is the same.



Post 29

Wednesday, November 28, 2007 - 4:39pmSanction this postReply
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Just to be clear, my point is not that gambling is wrong or crosses some magic line from "moral" to "immoral". Might point is that instead of viewing the source of revenue as a trade, a value for value, your best for their best, it's viewed as confrontational and zero-sum.

The Trader Principle is a very interesting idea about how we should live our lives. Instead of simply trying to take money from other people, it suggests we can offer value for value in exchange. We don't have to pit our interests against others. We can flourish by cooperation. We can take pride in our accomplishments, instead of viewing our wealth as a product of the stupidity of others. We can view our relationship with others as harmonious and benevolent. We can seek ways of enhancing the values we produce for others so that we can be enriched in the exchange. We can aim at production of wealth and growing the pie, instead of taking away from others. The principle is far-reaching. If we want something, we can earn it.

In contrast, there are plenty of ways of surviving that are still legal. Rand didn't just talk about the looters. She expressed disdain for the "moochers" as well. But mooching is another way of gaining values. Either through manipulation, guilt, or whatever, you can take gain values from other people. Of course, given certain reactions on this thread, I would assume that "mooching" is also considered virtuous and following the trader principle. After all, if they're giving money, they must be benefiting in some way.

This is similar to the recent thread on Austrian Economics. In that thread, it was suggested that in a trade both parties actually do benefit because otherwise they wouldn't trade. In that kind of purely subjectivist view, every voluntary "exchange" is mutually beneficial, and so anything that's not illegal would follow the trader principle.

I think that misses the point. This issue is, if you're trying to take money from other people, without offering value for value in exchange, you aren't practicing the trader principle.

And we could go a little further. Look at Peter Keating in the Fountainhead. He certainly wasn't offering his best for their best. He was willing to manipulate, mirror their ideals, say or do whatever was necessary, and eventually even murder and lie. There's absolutely no doubt that he was "skilled" in the art of manipulating people. He was a master. But his efforts weren't directed at value production.




Post 30

Wednesday, November 28, 2007 - 5:09pmSanction this postReply
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I'd like to start right off by saying I'm probably not an unbiased source for pontificating on the value of gambling. I directly receive benefit from Casinos. I used to work in Las Vegas, and I now currently own a hotel that is located near two Indian Casinos to which I directly benefit from. But I'd like to know are we only discussing the value of seeking a professional career as a gambler, or are we including in this discussion the value of gambling as a form of entertainment?

For someone to seek a professional career in gambling I would say he is not operating with a full sense of how Casinos make their money. The house always has favorable numbers, although one can try to cheat the system, Casinos are always vigilant to throw out such cheaters, and cheating is a violation of every gambling law under any jurisdiction that allows gambling. There is no virtue in constantly trying to skirt the law, or beat a system that the Casino will throw you out once it figures out you beat the system, i.e. it is not a long-term life fulfilling eudaemonic career. But poker is a slightly different game, where one player can benefit off of other less skilled poker players, this is not the case with Blackjack, slots, roulette, where you can only beat the Casino's odds by cheating the rules or through legal means but just end up being thrown out. Here the house makes its money by taking a percentage of the bets and is not counting on their customers losing on a game of chance to them, but rather their customers are losing in a game chance to other customers, and the house makes its money by essentially charging rent. (It's also not a coincidence poker is not as profitable a game for Casinos compared to games of chance directly between Casino and customer, which is why it's hard to find poker tables at a Casino) Is being a professional poker player a viable career? For the most part I would still say no. To get to a high enough skill level to win enough money to sustain yourself, not only is an enormously difficult statistical uphill battle, but requires losing a lot of money along the way. But to those who have a made a career out of it, they are definitely a rare breed. But, we can't assume anyone who does play poker, is there to make a career out of it. There is as Jordan pointed out, a value out of going up against someone who has more skill than you. Whether any of you personally find value in that for yourself is completely irrelevant. Unless you are to tell me you would find value in any product or service the free market offers then you must concede goods and services are valued through a subjective value judgment.

Jordan:

Value implies a valuer. The valuer decides what is of value to him.


And this is precisely why a free market works so well. You can't come from this from the angle "Hey would I get value out of this product/service, and if not than it must have no value"

A lot of people have a disposable income. Entertainment while the least important value towards attaining happiness in one's hierarchal list of values (eating food and drinking water probably the first priority towards attaining happiness) it is still a value. To say one form of entertainment, spending 100 dollars on an expensive dinner and drinks at a club, is better than saying spending a 100 dollars on the slots only demonstrates we have subjective ideas of what is entertainment. It only becomes unhealthy when the gambling starts to destroy the higher prioritized values towards sustaining a healthy eudaemonic life, for example gambling to the point of destitution.

Post 31

Wednesday, November 28, 2007 - 5:10pmSanction this postReply
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Well, so that I'm clear... I'm stating that there are many values being traded in gambling (and games in general): entertainment, an interesting challenge, sociability, etc.

All games are zero sum. To focus on this is to miss the point of gaming entirely.

P.S. To put my money where my mouth is: I'm now off for a night of Euro-gaming with friends ;)
(Edited by Jordan Zimmerman on 11/28, 5:13pm)


Post 32

Wednesday, November 28, 2007 - 5:18pmSanction this postReply
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Joe:

The Trader Principle is a very interesting idea about how we should live our lives. Instead of simply trying to take money from other people, it suggests we can offer value for value in exchange. We don't have to pit our interests against others. We can flourish by cooperation. We can take pride in our accomplishments, instead of viewing our wealth as a product of the stupidity of others. We can view our relationship with others as harmonious and benevolent. We can seek ways of enhancing the values we produce for others so that we can be enriched in the exchange. We can aim at production of wealth and growing the pie, instead of taking away from others. The principle is far-reaching. If we want something, we can earn it.


I don't think the Gaming industry is a zero-sum industry Joe. One is trading value for value, money for entertainment. Not only that but Casinos as an ancillary effect of having games also build restaurants, theaters, amusement rides etc. Some even go so far as having aquariums and small zoos. All of these things employ thousands of people, and people come pouring into these things looking for a form of entertainment for the evening. That is no zero-sum by any means. Or am I mistaken that gambling per se is not what you mean is zero-sum?

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Post 33

Wednesday, November 28, 2007 - 5:57pmSanction this postReply
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John, your comments are a welcome addition.

My focus has been on gambling as a career, not as a form of entertainment. Doing something for entertainment, or any of the values Jordan just mentioned, is one thing. Making it your primary productive effort is quite another.

I also agree with your point (made by others) that people may be spending the money for entertainment. People going to casinos could be viewed that way, and the casinos could be viewed as selling entertainment. So there you have people offering value for value.

I've been referring to the "professional gambler", who's goal is to take money from others (either people or the casino), and any value he might incidentally offer is accidental. He wins by making them lose, not by making them win too. He pits his interests against theirs. Any talk of him offering entertainment as the value sounds like an excuse. He's not offering it. It's an unintended side-effect.

Jordan, you said "All games are zero sum. To focus on this is to miss the point of gaming entirely".

I can understand your point. That isn't why people play the games, or watch them. The zero sum is just part of the game, not the point of it. But I'm just saying that when you live your life in a way that your productive activity is a zero-sum situation, there are side-effects.

The harmony of interests, and general good will towards man, is really possible because life isn't a zero-sum process. You can have an intellectual and emotional response to this fact. But what happens when you restrict a critical part of your life to a zero-sum situation? Can you live in a zero-sum situation for long without it affecting your basic outlook? Certainly from the experience I've seen (and I gave an example), there is a price.




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Post 34

Wednesday, November 28, 2007 - 6:21pmSanction this postReply
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Our Inner Puritan

Living alone on a desert island, no person could thrive or survive as a professional poker player - but n either would applying the "trader principle" get him anywhere at all. Ethics does not reduce to mere economics in either the exclusively private and personal sphere nor in wider society. To criticize professional poker players as not offering value for value is plausible in the macroeconomic sphere - but only if one again subscribes to a purely monetary definition of value (one that Objectivism starkly denies) and if one also ignores that professional poker players can draw an audience no different from the audience for any other competitive event.

Our Inner Puritan might recoil at gambling - I do not gamble, find people buying Lotto tickets at my local pharmacy pathetic, and wouldn't enter a casino on a bet. But this is an aesthetic choice. I get no thrill from gambling. (Nor do I get a thrill from castigating gamblers.) I would rather spend my disposable income on a romantic evening with my boyfriend. No doubt others would find my taste for period pieces, sirloin steak and sodomy repulsive. But as with the joy of gambling, my aesthetic - that is optional- values are moral in so far as they bring me joy and do not detract from my moral responsibilities to feed and clothe myself, pay my bills, protect my health, and otherwise provide for my long term happiness. While poison is always evil if one wants to live, most of one's choices in our free, productive, and diversified economy are wide open as to whether we like video games, bubble gum, bottled water and $1,000 designer purses by Gucci, or, like myself, camping, blue cheese, rare books and blue-jeans.

Objectivist moral theory exists only in outline, with a lopsided emphasis on virtues, and a tacit assumption that Rand's or one's own conventional values are self evidently rational. Just as interpersonal ethics can be divided into the optional etiquette and the mandatory politics personal ethics can be divided into the optional aesthetic and the mandatory personal responsibility. In a free, large, and vibrant society, with the possibility for individuals to choose among a huge number of niches in our division-of-labor economy, or to make their own niches, and to choose their own social circles each with their own standards of etiquette, it is atavistic to expect people to conform to traditional or conventional lifestyles. If you can support yourself as an on-line poker player or as a transvestite beauty-queen or by selling bottled water at $2 a pint then revel in your freedom and the age in which you live. Just a few decades ago, the internet didn't exist, transvestism was illegal and likely to get one murdered, and the bottled water market existed only in deserts and the path of oncoming hurricanes.

We are not cavemen, nor subsistance agriculturalists nor Ozzy and Harriet and we need not live like we were.

Ted Keer

Post 35

Wednesday, November 28, 2007 - 6:29pmSanction this postReply
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Of course, the big names get in by winning in lower tournaments. But, the principle is the same.

That's what I mean, Jordan. The big games on TV.  I figured there were fees for the lower, qualifying games.


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Post 36

Wednesday, November 28, 2007 - 6:35pmSanction this postReply
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I've been referring to the "professional gambler", who's goal is to take money from others (either people or the casino), and any value he might incidentally offer is accidental. He wins by making them lose, not by making them win too. He pits his interests against theirs. Any talk of him offering entertainment as the value sounds like an excuse. He's not offering it. It's an unintended side-effect.


Very compelling, Joe.  None of this would have ever occurred to me. 


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Post 37

Wednesday, November 28, 2007 - 6:51pmSanction this postReply
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Ted says:
Objectivist moral theory exists only in outline, with a lopsided emphasis on virtues, and a tacit assumption that Rand's or one's own conventional values are self evidently rational.

This is a large reason why we disagree on so many topics. Instead of understanding the principles of Objectivism, you treat them as groundless assertions, to be taken or left without consequence.

I'm not surprised that you can't tell the difference between Objectivist principles and traditional or puritan values. But your ignorant assertions are not facts.

Post 38

Wednesday, November 28, 2007 - 7:41pmSanction this postReply
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But this is an aesthetic choice

How is gambling 'aesthetic'?


Post 39

Wednesday, November 28, 2007 - 9:01pmSanction this postReply
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I was specifically positing not gambling as entertainment - but for example what professionals of the usual sort do:

1- "Hustle" - this is to seem bad, and get some "high rollers" to start betting big, then win.  Usually all about the con - basically people who are very good playing others who think they are good (and may be vs non pros) and making it seem like you are one of them - then cleaning their clocks.  Usually not involving cheating, but it is primarily deception.

2 - New is now "online" poker - my bet is it is pretty much the same thing, absent the seedy bars and back rooms.


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