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Post 40

Wednesday, March 19, 2008 - 2:49pmSanction this postReply
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Cite - http://www.scribeslair.com/imm.jpg
http://www.ccis-ucsd.org/publications/wrkg31.PDF
http://www.scribeslair.com/imm.jpg


Post 41

Wednesday, March 19, 2008 - 2:59pmSanction this postReply
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Oh, BTW
http://www.bls.gov/news.release/pdf/realer.pdf


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Post 42

Wednesday, March 19, 2008 - 6:40pmSanction this postReply
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I, for one, would really appreciate Jack's interpretation and input regarding the links he offered.  The little graphs were impossible for me to decipher.

No matter, really.  They seem to show wages decreasing in some major sectors, but John's point is that with a decrease of labor costs comes a decrease in the cost of goods and services.  Where's the graph showing that?

The white paper on boarder patrol and it's impact on wages was interesting. It appears to support all of John's assertions, although I'm sure it meant to do the opposite:


There is very little work on whether border enforcement affects labor-market outcomes in the United States or Mexico.4 This gap in the literature is unfortunate, given the importance of border enforcement in U.S. efforts to control illegal immigration.
It is very unfortunate, because I have a hunch such information would completely support John's argument.

Our work also relates to a broader literature on whether immigration lowers the wages of
U.S. workers.5 This subject has attracted attention due to the coincidence of two events -- rising immigration of low-skilled individuals (Borjas 1994) and a relative decline in the earnings of lowskilled U.S. workers (Levy and Murnane 1992; Katz and Murphy 1992). ---

This is so logically flawed, I'm certain it had to be written as a grant application. It doesn't matter WHERE low skilled workers come from!  This "coincidence" would happen if the workers came from Kalamazoo or from Tijuana. It's simple cause and effect, but has nothing at all to do with where the workers came from.  I'm even tempted to call this an introduction to fascist bullshit! Terrible!
 
In California, the arrival of immigrants from Mexico and other low-wage countries has been followed by rapid growth in apparel, textiles, food products, and other labor-intensive industries (Hanson and Slaughter 2000).
Well, duh.

This paper helps assess the severity of the shortcomings in previous literature.
Here's some fill for the blanks:

 
http://www.cnn.com/2006/US/09/15/immigration.town.ap/index.html (link no longer available)

Immigration raids make a ghost town in Georgia

STILLMORE, Georgia (AP) -- Trailer parks lie abandoned. The poultry plant is scrambling to replace more than half its workforce. Business has dried up at stores where Mexican laborers once lined up to buy food, beer and cigarettes just weeks ago.

This Georgia community of about 1,000 people has become little more than a ghost town since September 1, when federal agents began rounding up illegal immigrants.

The sweep has had the unintended effect of underscoring just how vital the illegal immigrants were to the local economy.

More than 120 illegal immigrants have been loaded onto buses bound for immigration courts in Atlanta, 189 miles away. Hundreds more fled Emanuel County. Residents say many scattered into the woods, camping out for days. They worry some are still hiding without food.

At least one child, born a U.S. citizen, was left behind by his Mexican parents: 2-year-old Victor Perez-Lopez. The toddler's mother, Rosa Lopez, left her son with Julie Rodas when the raids began and fled the state. The boy's father was deported to Mexico.

"When his momma brought this baby here and left him, tears rolled down her face and mine too," Rodas said. "She said, `Julie, will you please take care of my son because I have no money, no way of paying rent?"'

For five years, Rodas has made a living watching the children of workers at the Crider Inc. poultry plant, where the vast majority of employees were Mexican immigrants. She learned Spanish, and considered many immigrants among her closest friends. She threw parties for their children's birthdays and baptisms.

The only child in Rodas' care now, besides her own son, is Victor. Her customers have disappeared.

Federal agents also swarmed into a trailer park operated by David Robinson. Illegal immigrants were handcuffed and taken away. Almost none have returned. Robinson bought an American flag and posted it by the pond out front -- upside down, in protest.

"These people might not have American rights, but they've damn sure got human rights," Robinson said. "There ain't no reason to treat them like animals."

The raids came during a fall election season in which immigration is a top issue.

Illegal immigrant population doubles
Last month, the federal government reported that Georgia had the fastest-growing illegal immigrant population in the country. The number more than doubled from an estimated 220,000 in 2000 to 470,000 last year. This year, state lawmakers passed some of the nation's toughest measures targeting illegal immigrants, and Republican Gov. Sonny Perdue last week vowed a statewide crackdown on document fraud.

Other than the Crider plant, there isn't much in Stillmore. Four small stores, a coin laundry and a Baptist church share downtown with City Hall, the fire department and a post office. "We're poor but proud," Mayor Marilyn Slater said, as if that is the town motto.

The 2000 Census put Stillmore's population at 730, but Slater said uncounted immigrants probably made it more than 1,000. Not anymore, with so many homes abandoned and the streets practically empty.

"This reminds me of what I read about Nazi Germany, the Gestapo coming in and yanking people up," Slater said.

Immigration and Customs Enforcement spokesman Marc Raimondi would not discuss details of the raids. "We can't lose sight of the fact that these people were here illegally," Raimondi said.

Businesses may have to close
At Sucursal Salina No. 2, a store stocked with Mexican fruit sodas and snacks, cashier Alberto Gonzalez said Wednesday that the owner may shutter the place. By midday, Gonzalez has had only six customers. Normally, he would see 100.

The B&S convenience store, owned by Keith and Regan Slater, the mayor's son and grandson, has lost about 80 percent of its business.

"These people come over here to make a better way of life, not to blow us up," complained Keith Slater, who keeps a portrait of Ronald Reagan on the wall. "I'm a die-hard Republican, but I think we missed the boat with this one."

Since the mid-1990s, Stillmore has grown dependent on the paychecks of Mexican workers who originally came for seasonal farm labor, picking the area's famous Vidalia onions. Many then took year-round jobs at the Crider plant, with a workforce of about 900.

Crider President David Purtle said the agents began inspecting the company's employment records in May. They found 700 suspected illegal immigrants, and supervisors handed out letters over the summer ordering them to prove they came to the U.S. legally or be fired. Only about 100 kept their jobs.

The arrests started at the plant September 1. During the Labor Day weekend, agents with guns and bulletproof vests converged on workers' homes after getting the addresses from Crider's files.

No people, no work
Antonio Lopez, who came here two years ago from Chiapas, Mexico, and worked at the Crider plant, said agents kicked in his front door. Lopez, 32, and his 15-year-old son were handcuffed and taken by bus to Atlanta with 30 others. Because of the boy, Lopez said, both were allowed to return. In his back pocket, he carries an order to return to Atlanta for a court hearing February 2.

But now, "there's no people here and I don't have any work," he said.

The poultry plant has limped along with half its normal workforce. Crider increased its starting wages by $1 an hour to help recruit new workers.

Stacie Bell, 23, started work canning chicken at Crider a week ago. She said the pay, $7.75 an hour, led her to leave her $5.60-an-hour job as a Wal-Mart cashier in nearby Statesboro. Still, Bell said she felt bad about the raids.

"If they knew eventually that they were going to have to do that, they should have never let them come over here," she said.

_______________________________________________________


GRAND ISLAND, Neb. -- On Dec. 12, just after 7:30 a.m., Superintendent Steve Joel got a call from the police chief saying "something big" was about to happen at the Swift & Co. meatpacking plant.

Mr. Joel realized what that meant: Dozens of Swift workers were about to be rounded up in an immigration raid. What would happen to their children, students in his district? Would some seniors ever be able to graduate? "It was like a tornado," says the head of the Grand Island School District.
[S J]

The twister that struck this Midwestern town was part of a far-reaching operation targeting Swift plants in six states and detaining 1,200 workers. As Congress debates how to deal with millions of illegal immigrants, the Department of Homeland Security has been stepping up workplace enforcement. As a result, the number of illegal immigrants arrested by the Immigration and Customs Enforcement unit, or ICE, during work-site operations has soared. In the fiscal year ended Sept. 30, 2002, 485 were arrested. In fiscal year 2006, 3,667 workers were arrested.

The raids at many companies are creating an unexpected new problem for public schools. More accustomed to gun scares, suspicious intruders and tornado warnings, school administrators find themselves having to orchestrate a response to a new kind of crisis.

"Our response was going to be a defining moment for Grand Island," says Mr. Joel, a New Yorker who built his 22-year career in Nebraska schools.

Numerous school districts near the raided Swift plants made plans on the fly. In Marshalltown, Iowa, teachers put children on buses home and hoped there was someone to receive them. In Worthington, Minn., where 239 Swift workers were arrested, schools were flooded with calls from frantic relatives. Many administrators found themselves calling Swift in an attempt to ascertain the fate of some students' parents.

In the aftermath of the highly publicized raids, some schools are making new contingency plans. Mr. Joel has been on the road to share his experience with other school administrators. "This is one more crisis you must be mentally and organizationally prepared for," he says.

Chain of Command

Superintendent Robin Stevens of Schuyler, a town 90 miles northeast of Grand Island that is home to a large Cargill Inc. packing plant, says his staff has devised a strategy, which includes a chain of command to ensure effective communication among staff as well as a united message for students' families and the community.

Established by German immigrants who toiled on the land or on the railroads, Grand Island's population of 42,000 now includes large numbers of Latin American immigrants who work in the meatpacking industry. Many of these immigrants are undocumented. Last year, Swift was the city's largest employer, with minorities representing 70% of its 2,600 workers. Currently, 42% of the 8,200 students in Grand Island schools are minority, mainly Hispanic.

In the years preceding the raid, Mr. Joel and his staff worked hard to win the support and trust of the Hispanic population, which sometimes viewed schools with the same suspicion felt for other U.S. institutions. Mr. Joel hired bilingual staff for the schools and co-founded a multicultural coalition that includes hospitals, churches and businesses.

On the morning of Dec. 12, less than 20 minutes after learning of the raid, Mr. Joel issued an "urgent" email informing administrators at the district's 18 schools about a major immigration operation at the Swift plant that would have "significant impact on many students." Children might go home to find one or both parents gone, or might not be picked up from school at all, it noted.

By then, the raid was well under way. Outside the Swift plant, dozens of workers, many weeping and shackled, were boarded onto white, unmarked buses headed for processing centers in other states.

Schools tried to notify their pupils without generating a panic. Every principal enlisted teachers, social workers and guidance counselors who could work through the night. Some schools were designated as shelters. Elementary schools received specific directives to ensure that every student be released only to relatives or a person that a child could identify.

Starr Elementary's administrators attempted to identify the children of Swift workers but soon realized that most of the worker names, likely derived from fake Social Security cards, didn't match the names given to the school. Walnut Middle School held a meeting where teachers tried to calm 140 students whose relatives worked at Swift.

Meanwhile, Mr. Joel worried that his "hard-gained trust was about to go down the tubes." While immigration agents usually leave schools alone, there is no rule barring them from picking up parents during morning drop-off. Mr. Joel says he got assurances from authorities that his schools wouldn't be touched.

With details trickling in from the plant and fear gripping Hispanic neighborhoods, Mr. Joel called a 10 a.m. news conference. "The schools will be a safe haven and we will guarantee that," he said. His remarks helped generate charitable donations from local service groups and private citizens wanting to help.

Some were distrustful. "How can you tell us that children will be safe when their parents are no longer here," shouted an angry Latina community leader. Undeterred, Mr. Joel reiterated his message on Spanish-language radio and TV, in fliers sent home with children and in a simultaneous phone message transmitted to Spanish-speaking homes.

Ghost Town

As ICE agents pursued fugitives around town, some families took refuge in churches while others barricaded their doors and windows at home. By sundown, the Latino business district was a ghost town. ICE agents had apprehended 278 immigrants and routed most of them to a processing center in Iowa.

By about 8 p.m., Mr. Joel's team had accounted for every student affected by the raid. About 165 children were identified as having a relative detained in the Swift raid, including 25 who had two parents missing. The district confirmed that every one of these children had adult supervision.

The immediate crisis was over. Detained workers would be held anywhere from a few days to a few months, after which they would be released to their families while awaiting a court date for a deportation hearing.

But that didn't mean Mr. Joel's worries had ended. He feared families would be too scared to bring their children to school. Not only would that hurt attendance, it would jeopardize graduation for some high-school seniors. Indeed, on Dec. 13, attendance was mixed. Only a handful more students than usual were absent at the high school. But about 370 students were absent in the lower grades, 60% more than usual.

Mr. Joel, who wears ties adorned with drawings of multicultural children, instructed school principals to fully investigate each absence -- even if it took going door-to-door.

Principal Kris Burling took to the streets in a heavily Hispanic area near Howard Elementary. At every house, she could hear music, TVs and shuffling inside. But when she knocked, no one would come to the door -- even after she explained why she was there. "I took it pretty personally," Mrs. Burling recalls. "I had worked with these families for five years."

By the third day, attendance levels systemwide were close to normal. Karla, a fifth-grader whose father had been seized in the raid, was back in school. "I was afraid that if I left home, they would come and take my mom," says the 10-year old, whose family granted permission for the interview on the condition their last name not be used. "But mom reminded me that my dad had always wanted me to be educated." She adds: "I know I'm safe at school."

Over the winter holiday break, school officials were dispatched to homes where at least one parent was still missing, delivering brown bags stuffed with tortilla chips, beans, rice and other staples. Inside the bag, a note in Spanish and English cited a hotline to call "if you have any questions or need help after the Swift raid." According to Kerri Nazarenus, who coordinated the response for the superintendent, "it was a way to get in the door and make sure the kids were safe."
___________________________________________________________

It's sickening to me that people can be afraid like that in this country.  I'm horrified that people are willing to sell others down the river for a buck an hour. When did seeking freedom become "criminal?"  Disgusting.

I was very grateful to receive a nice raise a few months ago, but guess what? The price of what I produce was increased to my department's customers, too.  Can't have one without the other.   Why is this so difficult for people to grasp?


Post 43

Thursday, March 20, 2008 - 7:12amSanction this postReply
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This is probably the best piece I have found on Illegal immigration.

It reveals the problems caused by one-way borders, and, instead, extols the virtues of  a vastly enlarged - but controlled - increase in immigration.

It also reiterates the decline in wages for lowskilled labor in the US...which is what the graphic was in my link (as a newcomer I guess I am prohibited from posting graphics on this forum)

This is well worth the read.
http://www.foreignaffairs.org/20061101faessay85606-p0/tamar-jacoby/immigration-nation.html


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Post 44

Thursday, March 20, 2008 - 11:45amSanction this postReply
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Note to Jack, thank you for providing sources that prove my arguments correct and yours wrong.

From the article linked by John McNally in post 43

Labor-force participation among foreign-born men exceeds that of the native born: the figure for illegal immigrant men is the highest of any group -- 94 percent. And immigrants are less likely than natives to be unemployed.


And then if you look at my unemployment statistics, we see the unemployment rates have hovered around the same usual 4%.

So when John McNally says:

Of course that is what Mexico is exporting - poverty and unemployment


And yet surprisingly, illegals are the highest employed demographic, and we still have low overall unemployment with an increase in GDP per capita. Go figure.

Again, from the article:

The resulting shortfall of unskilled labor -- estimated to run to hundreds of thousands of workers a year -- is showing up in sector after sector. The construction industry creates some 185,000 jobs annually, and although construction workers now earn between $30,000 and $50,000 a year, employers in trades such as masonry and dry-walling report that they cannot find enough young Americans to do the work. The prospects for the restaurant business are even bleaker. With 12.5 million workers nationwide, restaurants are the nation's largest private-sector employer, and their demand for labor is expected to grow by 15 percent between 2005 and 2015. But the native-born work force will grow by only ten percent in that period, and the number of 16- to 24-year-old job seekers -- the key demographic for the restaurant trade -- will not expand at all.


So if we went by John McNally's recommendation, we would continue to cut off immigration, thereby creating labor shortages in the restaurant and construction business (and other low skilled labor jobs). Yeah that makes economic sense! [ / sarcasm ]

Of all the economic consequences of immigration, the easiest to calculate is the fiscal effect -- whether immigrants consume more in government benefits than they contribute in taxes. Although this is one of the most disputed and emotional aspects of the immigration debate, in fact the net effect in most states is close to a wash.


AND YET, we have all continuously argued anyways that the welfare states needs to be abolished. So this is a red herring anyways whether illegals burden our welfare entitlement programs. THIS HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH "ONE WAY" BORDERS OR PARITY WITH MEXICO, IT HAS TO DO WITH **OUR OWN** WELFARE SYSTEM.

But even still, the article still seems to suggest illegals contribute enough in taxes to cover what expenses they incur in welfare receipts. So this argument then is MOOT since it is a wash.

Again from this article:

Immigrants' overall contribution to U.S. economic growth is harder to measure, although there is no doubt among economists that newcomers enlarge the economic pie. Foreign workers emerging at the end of the day from the meatpacking plant or the carpet factory buy groceries and shoes for their children; on Saturday, they buy washing machines and then hire plumbers to install them. The companies where they work are more likely to stay in the United States, rather than move operations to another country where labor is cheaper. Readily available immigrant workers allow these businesses to expand, which keeps other Americans on the job and other U.S. businesses, both up- and downstream, afloat. Economists call this shifting the demand curve outward, and no one disputes that it results in a bigger, more productive economy.


So what's this I read? Oh, immigration enlarges our economy, it makes us all wealthier. Oh go figure, I thought I was saying that for several posts now?

Again from the article:

Some of the best efforts to measure the elusive immigrant growth dividend look at states or regions rather than the nation as a whole. A recent report on immigrants in North Carolina -- which has one of the fastest-growing foreign-born populations in the country -- estimated their contribution to economic expansion and compared it with the more easily measured fiscal consequences. The bottom line: newcomers filled one-third of North Carolina's new jobs in the past decade, and they were responsible for $9.2 billion in consumer spending and $1.9 billion in saved wages -- a total growth dividend of $11 billion, which dwarfed the $61 million (or $102 per native-born taxpayer) that the newcomers cost the state when taxes and services were netted out.


So, immigrants in N. Carolina accounted for $11 billion dollars of economic growth while $61 million dollars were netted out in government services.

Hmmm......$11 BILLION to $61 million. Yup, real big burden there.

Again, from the article that seems to prove every point I've made:

They often work harder and for longer hours, and in some cases they take jobs many Americans no longer want to do. But rather than undercut the native born, immigrants who are genuinely different make Americans better off. More low-skilled construction workers mean more jobs and higher wages for plumbers, electricians, and architects. More service workers allow skilled Americans to spend more of their time doing more productive work: instead of staying home to cut the grass, the brain surgeon has time for more brain surgeries. And over time, the higher return for higher-level work creates incentives for more Americans to become plumbers, electricians, and architects, thus making the entire economy more productive.


Oh what's this? They improve our standard of living? Damn Mexico for exporting economic prosperity!

Even in sectors such as construction and hospitality, in which the work must be done in the United States, it hardly makes sense to lure an American to a less productive job than he or she is capable of by paying more for less-skilled work. Meanwhile, because they complement rather than compete with most native-born workers (and this in turn attracts additional capital), immigrants raise rather than lower most Americans' wages.


Wait a minute. Immigrants raise rather than lower most Americans' wages? Oh gee, I guess Americans better fear having their wages increased.

Immigrants do compete with one category of American workers: native-born high school dropouts. But not even the most pessimistic economists think that the resulting downward pressure on wages affects more than ten percent of the U.S. labor force or that the drop in those American workers' earnings has been more than five percent over the last 20 years. Moreover, these unskilled native workers benefit in other ways from immigrant complementarity, because they pay less for goods such as food and housing.


Oh what's this now? Only high school dropouts compete for jobs with illegal immigrants? But they still benefit because they pay less for goods such as food and housing? Hmm...haven't I said this several times now?

Again from the article:

Finally, rather than taking jobs from Americans, immigrants often create jobs where none existed before


Oh really? But according to John McNally since we don't have parity with Mexico they are exporting poverty and unemployment. Hmmm.... do I listen to John McNally, or the author of the article he provided a link to....hmmm...I can't accept both arguments as true because they are in contradiction....and the author of the article agrees with me so....I'm gonna go with the author of the article on this one.

And from the article:

Comprehensive reformers start with these assumptions about the economic benefits of immigration and build out from there to design policy. Their basic idea is that the U.S. immigration system should be market-based. For the past decade or so, market forces have brought some 1.5 million immigrants, skilled and unskilled, to work in the United States each year. But annual quotas admit only about a million, or two-thirds of the total. Enforcement of these limits is poor in part because the nation is ambivalent about how much it wants to control immigration and also because it is all but impossible to make unrealistic laws stick. And as a result, some half a million foreign workers, most of them unskilled and from Latin America, breach the border every year or overstay their visas to remain on a job. It is as if American cars were made with imported steel but the government maintained such restrictive steel quotas that a third of what was needed had to be smuggled in. The only plausible remedy is more generous quotas combined with more effective enforcement.


Too bad, the author almost got it right. Yes we need to alleviate the restrictions on legal immigration, but NO we shouldn't have QUOTAS. As I stated in a previous post, if the job market is in a slump, immigration slows down because foreign workers tend to migrate where jobs are available. As we have seen during the Great Depression immigration to the United States was at an all time low. That is the laws of supply and demand dictate what the adequate flow of immigration should be, which means THE FREE MARKET TAKES CARE OF ITSELF. Not centrally planned labor markets where an economist philosopher-king makes the decision when to cut off the spigot. It is no different than government price controls on goods or services, which we all know always results in shortages (take for example the government price controls on gas during the 70's, or any market in the Soviet Union where everything was government price controlled). It is also no different than the Federal Reserve fixing the supply of currency, which we all have seen the devastating effects of excess capacity it has wrought during the booming housing market and the subsequent collapse. The government is not good at predicting market trends.

The fact is individuals are a better judge of which market to go to than the government is.


From the article:

The best way to regain control is not to crack down but to liberalize --


Which is what I've been saying consistently for several posts. Only disagreement I have from the article is the extent of how much to liberalize the policy.

And yet John McNally says the article agrees with him there is a problem with "one-way borders" and keeps talking about parity with Mexico. He said: "[The article] reveals the problems caused by one-way borders" THE ARTICLE NEVER TALKS ABOUT THIS. So what in the hell are you going on about John?

Where does the article talk about this?

From the article:

Not only is such reform the only way to restore the rule of law; it is also one of the best ways to improve border security. As one veteran Border Patrol agent in Arizona put it, "What if another 9/11 happens, and it happens on my watch? What if the bastards come across here in Arizona and I don't catch them because I'm so busy chasing your next busboy or my next gardener that I don't have time to do my real job -- catching terrorists?" The government needs to take the busboys and the gardeners out of the equation by giving them a legal way to enter the country, so that the Border Patrol can focus on the smugglers and the terrorists who pose a genuine threat.


Funny, that's what Bill Dwyer said in his first post talking about Yaron Brooks comments:

"However, Brook said that not everyone should be allowed in. He stated that there were three classes of foreigners who should be denied entry: terrorists, criminals and people with infectious diseases. But all others are welcome, and if their entry were legal, the border patrols would have that much less work to do, since only criminals, terrorists and people with infectious diseases would be trying to sneak across. Everyone else would be allowed legal entry into the country, and would have nothing to lose by going through legal channels."



Post 45

Thursday, March 20, 2008 - 1:10pmSanction this postReply
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Too much of anything causes a problem.
Oxygen, water, food, immigration.
All of these things are good for you - to a point.
And you seem to be pointless.
Well...guess we'll just have to agree to disagree.


Post 46

Thursday, March 20, 2008 - 1:20pmSanction this postReply
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http://www.foreignaffairs.org/20061101faessay85606-p0/tamar-jacoby/immigration-nation.html

"Immigrants do compete with one category of American workers: native-born high school dropouts. But not even the most pessimistic economists think that the resulting downward pressure on wages affects more than ten percent of the U.S. labor force or that the drop in those American workers' earnings has been more than five percent over the last 20 years."

"To be sure, in states with lots of newcomers, the burden on native-born taxpayers can still add up: according to one estimate, in California in the mid-1990s the bite was $1,178 per native-born household."

Hell, bring-em all on in.
We'll just send 'em to John's house. : )


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Post 47

Thursday, March 20, 2008 - 4:04pmSanction this postReply
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Jack:

Too much of anything causes a problem.
Oxygen, water, food, immigration.
All of these things are good for you - to a point.
And you seem to be pointless.
Well...guess we'll just have to agree to disagree.


If you can't defend your position you shouldn't hold onto it. I'm not content with agreeing to disagree, either concede or I'll just agree you're full of shit.

"To be sure, in states with lots of newcomers, the burden on native-born taxpayers can still add up: according to one estimate, in California in the mid-1990s the bite was $1,178 per native-born household."


Probably because the people's republic of California has one of the most lavish state welfare programs.

Again, nothing to do with "parity" with Mexico or "one-way" borders. That's California policy, not Mexican policy.



Post 48

Thursday, March 20, 2008 - 5:23pmSanction this postReply
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Too much of anything causes a problem.

I'm guessing that you have a nice wife, Jack. If she's anything like me (or many of my female friends) it just isn't possible to have -too many- handbags (or shoes, or other forms of aesthetically nourishing, fashionably functional bling ;), or books.  


Post 49

Thursday, March 20, 2008 - 5:41pmSanction this postReply
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No such thing as too many books - just never enough....;-)
[of course is prob one of the reasons am single again - books seem to scare most females...:-( ]


Post 50

Friday, March 21, 2008 - 5:30amSanction this postReply
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Robert Malcom:
[of course is prob one of the reasons am single again - books seem to scare most females...:-( ]
Show them a big stack of romance novels. :-)


Post 51

Friday, March 21, 2008 - 7:15amSanction this postReply
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Show them a big stack of romance novels. :-)


My Pagliacci days are long past, thankfully....  harlequins not do me....;-)

(Edited by robert malcom on 3/21, 7:16am)


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Post 52

Saturday, March 22, 2008 - 10:26amSanction this postReply
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If we send back illegal immigrants, 90% of the restaurants, here in America, are forced to close and go out of business. I have been in the restaurant business for over 32 years, and I must say that I have never fund American workers willing to work long hours and as hard as the Latinos do.

Illegal  immigrants are an asset for big corporations like McDonald, Ruby Tuesday etch…, and for  restaurant owners in general, because they love to work.Work, that's all they want! who cares where they send their money! It's their money!

And beside, these illegal immigrants , even though being  here illegally,  they pay taxes like all the other legal residents. Every year millions of dollars are not returned to illegal workers who are hired and work  under false documentation.

All this talking and BS about illegal immigration sounds more  like “The sanction of the victims”

 

Ciro









(Edited by Ciro D'Agostino on 3/22, 12:19pm)


Post 53

Monday, March 24, 2008 - 5:07amSanction this postReply
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quoteJack:

Too much of anything causes a problem.
Oxygen, water, food, immigration.
All of these things are good for you - to a point.
And you seem to be pointless.
Well...guess we'll just have to agree to disagree.


If you can't defend your position you shouldn't hold onto it. I'm not content with agreeing to disagree, either concede or I'll just agree you're full of shit.

"To be sure, in states with lots of newcomers, the burden on native-born taxpayers can still add up: according to one estimate, in California in the mid-1990s the bite was $1,178 per native-born household."


Probably because the people's republic of California has one of the most lavish state welfare programs.

Again, nothing to do with "parity" with Mexico or "one-way" borders. That's California policy, not Mexican policy.
My position that one way borders are unacceptable burden has not been threatened by your nonsensical argument that no amount of immigration is too much. In the perfect world within your imagination there would be no one-way borders and everything would be rosey. This is, however, not a perfect world and that is what makes it necessary to have controled immigration. We hold people accountable, I hold nations accountable.

OK - you want ad hominem rebuttal?

As for agreeing to disagree - I tire of trying to teach calculus to a cow. The effort somehow seem futile.

I am, indeed, full of shit. I have had all I can hold. I've been reading it on this forum...posted by someone who's simple mind needs strong language to prop up weak arguments. I guess your motto must be if you can't be right, be as unpleasant as possible. - and If you can't succeed in discourse - stifle it.

How wise and learned you appear to be - NOT

: ).

How was that??

Love this thread........



 


Post 54

Tuesday, March 25, 2008 - 4:35pmSanction this postReply
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How thick is that, John?  Could anyone get through it?  I think not.


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Post 55

Tuesday, March 25, 2008 - 4:53pmSanction this postReply
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John McNally

My position that one way borders are unacceptable burden has not been threatened by your nonsensical argument that no amount of immigration is too much.


Wow, all this time and you still misstate my position.

I said:

We need to alleviate the restrictions on legal immigration, but NO we shouldn't have QUOTAS. As I stated in a previous post, if the job market is in a slump, immigration slows down because foreign workers tend to migrate where jobs are available. As we have seen during the Great Depression immigration to the United States was at an all time low. That is the laws of supply and demand dictate what the adequate flow of immigration should be, which means THE FREE MARKET TAKES CARE OF ITSELF. Not centrally planned labor markets where an economist philosopher-king makes the decision when to cut off the spigot. It is no different than government price controls on goods or services, which we all know always results in shortages (take for example the government price controls on gas during the 70's, or any market in the Soviet Union where everything was government price controlled). It is also no different than the Federal Reserve fixing the supply of currency, which we all have seen the devastating effects of excess capacity it has wrought during the booming housing market and the subsequent collapse. The government is not good at predicting market trends.

The fact is individuals are a better judge of which market to go to than the government is.


So please explain to me Herr McNally, how much is too much immigration because I don't remember you saying you have this philosopher-king insight into the economy? If there are no jobs available in the U.S. why would immigrants leave a country impoverished to come to another country and be impoverished?

Again, we saw what happened to immigration during the Great Depression, it was at an all time low:



So please explain to me, why do you support restrictions on immigration unless it is for protectionist reasons?

This is, however, not a perfect world and that is what makes it necessary to have controled immigration.


I.e., this isn't a perfect world, so we can't enjoy freedom. Freedom is just too much of a good thing eh Herr McNally?

I am, indeed, full of shit.


First honest thing you've said this entire thread.

Post 56

Tuesday, March 25, 2008 - 5:37pmSanction this postReply
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There is no such thing as a 'perfect' world as you're trying to define it.... this here IS the world, the only one, and as such IS a perfect world  - within the context of what makes for real perfection...

What you are projecting is a fantasy world, devoid of the contexualism of the real world....

(Edited by robert malcom on 3/25, 5:39pm)


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