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Friday, April 25, 2008 - 9:43amSanction this postReply
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First Point:

Liberty, in the sense of freedom of action, is essential any action to be constitutive of eudaimonia (human flourishing, human well-being, survival of man qua man, etc.), and thus to be considered good.  A choice that is forced on a person by another person cannot be considered that person's choice, whether or not that would have been their choice anyway.  A person therefore has a right to defense of their liberty, life, and property.  Thus, others ought to respect our freedom of action, as it insures the possibility of their eudaimonia.

Second Point:

Also, the various virtues are constitutive of eudaimonia.  One of those virtues is justice, the properly human (ie; rational) attitude and habit towards physical violence.  Discovering what that attitude consists of is the role of natural law.  The fact that humans rely on reason to change the resources around them into various goods used to insure survival leads to the natural right to "homestead" unowned property.  Mixing one's labor with something unowned makes it, in one sense, a part of yourself.  The right to self-defense therefore also applies to one's justly aquired (homesteaded, gifted, or traded) property: anyone who attempts to use your property without your permission is using aggression against you.  A person that uses aggressive force against another is trading a more human life for a less human one.  Thus, we ought to respect the rights of others, as it insures the possibility of our eudaimonia.

How It All Ties Together:

Using aggressive force ultimately harms both yourself and the person you are aggressing against.  The state, a coercive monopoly of the "legitamite" use of force, is inherently aggressive, even Rand's ultra-minimal state.  Law does not require a "final arbiter" (this is an example of Wittgenstein's rule-following paradox), for who judges the final judge?  Thus, a stateless society is morally superior to a state.

Any comments? :-)


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Friday, April 25, 2008 - 10:34amSanction this postReply
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Hi Matthew,

I would contest your view that an Objectivist government holds a "coercive" monopoly on the use of physical force, using "coercive" in the sense of the initiation of force. It holds a monopoly on the use of force, to be sure, but that simply means that it prohibits force that violates its own laws,  which are themselves based on individual rights.

Any agency of defense, including a government, must decide what actions constitute the initiation of force and seek to prohibit them by force. Insofar as an anarchistic defense agency does not do this, it is abrogating its role as agency of defense. Insofar as it does do it, however, it is asserting a monopoly on the proper use of retaliatory force in a manner no different than a government.

Anarchism is thus a self-contradictory theory, because it eschews a monopoly on retaliatory force, while simultaneously asserting such a monopoly. It claims to oppose government, while simultaneously assuming the role of a government in prohibiting actions that violate its own standards of justice. No agency of defense can allow competition from other agencies with a different standard of justice or a different body of laws. If it does, it is abrogating its own role as a defender of justice.

In short, anarchism is an incoherent theory of governance, which in practice would eventuate in one dominant agency of defense -- i.e., a government -- or a serious of bloody private feuds and vendettas from rival gangs seeking to establish themselves as the dominant agency.

A government established in advance and agreed to by its members and participants (i.e., its citizens) would preclude these kind of civil wars, and allow a peaceful resolution of political differences.

- Bill

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Friday, April 25, 2008 - 11:34amSanction this postReply
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Matthew, I appreciate your willingness to join RoR and share your thoughts.

For future reference, please note that positions such as anarchy that dissent from standard Objectivist positions belong here:

http://rebirthofreason.com/Forum/Dissent/


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Friday, April 25, 2008 - 1:15pmSanction this postReply
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Sorry about that. :-)  Is it possible to move threads?

And in reply, a defense agency would only use force in defense of the persons or property of its customers and to seek restitution where crimes were commited.  There is no monopoly, because the right to self-defense and the right to seek restitution belong to the person that is wronged.  They may choose to not delegate that right and seek restitution themselves, but that would seem to be aggression to any outside observers, including the offender's agency and other third parties.  One of the purposes of the defense agency is to bear the risk of third parties seeing restitution as aggression (this is where procedural rights emerge; public trials, trial by jury, etc.).  The agency itself commits no acts of violence until an aggresive act is used against itself.


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Friday, April 25, 2008 - 7:09pmSanction this postReply
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And in reply, a defense agency would only use force in defense of the persons or property of its customers and to seek restitution where crimes were commited. There is no monopoly, because the right to self-defense and the right to seek restitution belong to the person that is wronged. They may choose to not delegate that right and seek restitution themselves, but that would seem to be aggression to any outside observers, including the offender's agency and other third parties. One of the purposes of the defense agency is to bear the risk of third parties seeing restitution as aggression (this is where procedural rights emerge; public trials, trial by jury, etc.). The agency itself commits no acts of violence until an aggresive act is used against itself.
Ah, but there are just standards of restitution and of self-defense, are there not? Who determines those standards and enforces them against dissenters? Whoever does is asserting a monopoly on the enforcement of justice.

- Bill

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Friday, April 25, 2008 - 9:01pmSanction this postReply
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Individuals differ in goals, information, and reasoning ability. There will be conflicts in judgment in serious matters, and force and domination will choose who gets their way. People will band together for safety in numbers. Through markets of scale and specialization of trade, some people will do most all of the defense work.

I couldn't imagine it be any other way. Can entrepreneurs make long term investments or have savings in an environment where any day someone could rob them without a local defense force attacking and deterring the potential thief? The local defense force IS government. The primary role of government is to defend the negative rights of innocent citizens.

Anarchy cannot beat a constitutional monarchy/republic for creating thriving efficient economy. Prove me wrong, show me one of any scale larger than 1M people.

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Friday, April 25, 2008 - 9:04pmSanction this postReply
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As an alternative to anarchism, I propose a society where everyone honestly swears "I swear by my life and my love of it that I will never live for the sake of another man, nor ask another man to live for mine."

: )

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Saturday, April 26, 2008 - 2:41amSanction this postReply
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Mathew

If you want to argue for anarchy with Objectivists, you might look for a defense other than Wittgenstein’s rule-following paradox.  That “paradox” suggests that rules are entirely arbitrary and therefore meaningless.  It is an argument for skepticism and subjectivism. 

 

Objectivists reject any and all skepticism, just as we reject any and all forms of anarchy.  In fact, our defense of limited government is essentially epistemological—thought is volitional, and force and mind are opposites.  Government is required to remove force from human relationships, so that men are free to deal with each other by reason.

 

If Wittgenstein’s paradox is correct, then all knowledge is arbitrary, and we don’t need to think for the purpose of survival—and a dictatorship might just be practical after all.  Since we can never really be sure if we know or understand anything, we need a government to tell us what to do.  


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Saturday, April 26, 2008 - 6:38amSanction this postReply
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Matthew, I have to agree with Luke: Dissent for this.  That is where I put mine.  Have you read any of them?

We have governments for a reason: people want them.  People want churches, fastfood, the Superbowl and the World Soccer Cup.  People want to know about Britney Spears.  If you want to offer something different, the market is the place to do it. 

RoR is a marketplace of ideas where we trade our perceptions, conceptions and abstractions.  The thing is that those who advocate for any theory will be pursuaded to the opposite opinion only very seldom.  It is third parties, readers (lurkers) who will accept, adopt or adapt what they find here.

You got responses from three people whose minds are already made up on this issue. If you want to continue to argue with them having as your object a desire to change their minds, then you are wasting your time. 

Finally, Objectivism is rational empiricism.  You only presented rationalist arguments. 

... anyway... I am taking this to Dissent where you will find the topic continued for you...  feel free to join me there... or not...


Post 9

Saturday, April 26, 2008 - 4:25pmSanction this postReply
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Mike,

=========
... three people whose minds are already made up on this issue. If you want to continue to argue with them having as your object a desire to change their minds, then you are wasting your time.
========

I would take issue with this summary, Mike. I'm a real hard-liner/heavy-hitter around here (or so I think!), but I've changed my mind in response to better ideas. I know for a fact that my true friend (and intellectual nemesis!), Bill Dwyer, has changed his mind in response to the free market of ideas here, too.

Why, just today, I was put in my place by a lawyer, no doubt! I was sure that I had come up with a shiny and brand new fallacy; and this lawyer made me aware that my fallacy had already been dubbed "slothful induction" -- so I had to scrap the thing on the spot and drop it (the wrong idea) like a hot potato!

Hmph!

;-)

Ed
(Edited by Ed Thompson on 4/26, 4:29pm)


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