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Post 20

Saturday, August 16, 2008 - 11:28amSanction this postReply
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Jim your ignorance is overwhelming to take in. You are opining on foreign policy issues that you haven't even taken the ounce of effort to take a cursory glance at the facts.

Is there some reason to believe that if the oil pipeline were taken over by Russia, that the oil supply would be shut off?


Yes! It has already used this tactic of economic warfare against the Czech Republic. If Russia wants to use a monopoly on European energy supplies as a means of extortion in an effort to cede more territory to its empire, it will definitely shut off the oil as a bargaining chip.

What do you think it means to have a fascist state controlling all oil and natural gas pipelines into Europe?

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Post 21

Saturday, August 16, 2008 - 11:53amSanction this postReply
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 Russia has already begun to expand its belligerence by threatening Poland with nuclear annihilation... The economy between the EU and the US is one of the strongest interdependent economies on the globe. We owe a great deal of our wealth because of that global market.

My boss has customers in Poland.  A USA customer has opened an affiliate in Eastern Europe, which has opened up all kinds of new business for us. It's very exciting.

Steve, in your view, what should American business people who participate in the global economy do in light of this situation?  How do you think Americans, like my boss, and his global American clients will vote (you get one guess), and why should they vote differently?  What kind of persuasion would you use to convince them that there's no long term potential in Eastern Europe?  Would you tell them not to worry about Russia, and why they shouldn't worry?

I think it would be interesting to hear an argument you would make to an American who actually does make money in EU, and who has their mind set on all of that part of the world.


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Post 22

Saturday, August 16, 2008 - 2:03pmSanction this postReply
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"Jim your ignorance is overwhelming to take in. You are opining on foreign policy issues that you haven't even taken the ounce of effort to take a cursory glance at the facts."

John -- trying to discredit people by lavishing bullying insults is a disreputable way of conducting a civilized debate. Your readiness to be belligerent in response to a series of reasonable questions should call into doubt your judgment about whether the U.S. is justified in aggressive military action in any given situation. And, given that you and Ted in another thread jumped all over me when I asserted that Georgia is authoritarian, when even a cursory googling of the subject would reveal that it is about as free as that bulwark of democracy, Venezuela under Hugo Chavez -- well, your remark above is remarkable for its irony.

To respond to your specific allegation: Oil is a worldwide, fungible commodity. If one country tries to cut off supplies, many other sources are available. Supplies can be trucked in if a pipeline is cut off temporarily. Russia does not have a monopoly on the world supply of this commodity. They can try to temporarily exert leverage on a given country to exert political pressure, but their economy is heavily natural resource dependent -- they would be shooting themselves in the foot to cut off oil sales long term.

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Post 23

Saturday, August 16, 2008 - 3:01pmSanction this postReply
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Jim:

Your readiness to be belligerent in response to a series of reasonable questions


I'm sorry, I took your questions to be rhetorical, not an honest inquiry into a subject matter you know little about.

I asserted that Georgia is authoritarian, when even a cursory googling of the subject would reveal that it is about as free as that bulwark of democracy, Venezuela under Hugo Chavez -- well, your remark above is remarkable for its irony.


Difference is Georgia in the past few years has been improving, while Venezuela has been regressing.

Your readiness to selectively omit facts is a sign of intellectual dishonesty.

Oil is a worldwide, fungible commodity. If one country tries to cut off supplies, many other sources are available.


And Europe significantly relies on Russian natural gas for it's energy needs, to naively think the European economy could just quickly recover a cutting off that supply and pick some new energy source to meet the demand from that supply magically out of thin air, is quite silly to think. Unless there are significant steps made towards finding new energy supplies or technological energy innovation, Europe for the foreseeable short-term at least can't economically survive without natural gas.

They can try to temporarily exert leverage on a given country to exert political pressure, but their economy is heavily natural resource dependent -- they would be shooting themselves in the foot to cut off oil sales long term.


There are two fatal errors in your judgment

1) Russia is counting on the moral cowardice of Europe to continuously cave into Russian demands to turn the oil and natural gas spigot back on. And you share that strategy of appeasement.

2) Fascist dictators don't care about their people but their own welfare, what's a temporary economic slow down mean to their lavish lifestyles? They don't care, and they will call Europe's bluff.

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Post 24

Saturday, August 16, 2008 - 3:54pmSanction this postReply
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Essence and Degree

There is an essential difference, not merely one of degree, between Georgia on one hand and Russian and Venezuela on the other.

Georgia is a market economy with a freely elected government. Both Russia and Venezuela have leaders whose elections were managed by the use of political arrests and constitutional changes.

Both Russia and Venezuela have dictators who have nationalized their oil industries, and used that wealth to support violence externally and internally. There are no Georgian troops or arms in Columbia, nor were there in Iraq, nor are there anywhere else.

Georgia is not supporting insurrection in Russia. Russia is doing so everywhere possible, including Georgia.

Do not make the mistake of arguing inessential minutiae. These trivia don't matter to your libertarian opponent's argument. He would oppose military action no matter what the case - his policy is not one of being careful whom to support, but one of being against military action in our self interest in all cases.

As for Ed, who lists every single study available in any matter dealing with such matters as global warming, perhaps he could favor us with reports on Georgian free market reforms, or military atrocities? As for Steve, who was willing to stand up for the importance of concrete facts so far as Native American societies were concerned, could he at least focus on the concrete facts of Georgia's recent history, even if his isolationism makes him unwilling to go so far as state support for Georgia. One can be an isolationist without having to deny those facts which one finds insufficient as cause for military action.

There is a difference between saying that the innocent Czechs of Sudetenland are not worth fighting for, and saying that the Czechs provoked the German invasion with their militaristic ways.

(Edited by Ted Keer on 8/16, 4:50pm)


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Post 25

Saturday, August 16, 2008 - 8:51pmSanction this postReply
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For those who see interventionism having a value here, let me ask the following questions, in addition to those asked by Jim:

1) Is it rational to get involved without having decided if we are willing to commit to military action if necessary?

2) Should we be willing to go forward with military intervention if Putin remains intransigent?

3) Will intervening directly enhance or constrict our liberty in the United States. Astute readers will immediately grasp that foreign "wars of liberation" curtail our liberty as American citizens in the form of higher taxes, more national debt, an intrusive (and dangerous) national security state, and the heightened and real danger of increased Terrorist blowback.

4) Does the interventionists' vision for our lives exclude American involvement in ANY theater of action anywhere on Earth? If not, can they identify any country anywhere on whose behalf Americans should not be forced to fight?

5) Some people think that if Georgia falls to Putin's nefarious agenda, that the rest of Europe will inexorably follow. Would they care to estimate when the rest of Europe will begin to fall to Russia.

6) Do they know the scale of our national debt today? $13 trillion--$200,000 for every breathing US citizen. Do they have any idea how this growing debt will be discharged?

7) Is there some benchmark of American poverty at which Americans may finally be permitted to lay aside their burden of fighting all villains as if our government's jurisdiction were the entire globe?


(Edited by Steve Wolfer on 8/16, 9:43pm)

(Edited by Steve Wolfer on 8/16, 9:48pm)


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Post 26

Saturday, August 16, 2008 - 9:10pmSanction this postReply
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1) Is it rational to get involved without having decided if we are willing to commit to military action if necessary?

1) Unfair, compound question - but of course the President must confer with Congress over this, its why we have a Congress.

2) Should we be willing to go forward with military intervention if Putin remains intransigent?

2) Yes, but that leaves open the question of what type of force, and direct force, or just aid. Also, there are options such as convincing Poland to accept anti-missle bases - oh, wait, that already happened. (Do you oppose that?)

3) Will intervening directly enhance or constrict our liberty in the United States. Astute readers will immediately grasp that foreign "wars of liberation" curtail our liberty as American citizens in the form of higher taxes, more national debt, an intrusive (and dangerous) national security state, and the heightened and real danger of increased Terrorist blowback.

3) Well, we could have gotten rich short-term by selling arms to both the Nazis and the Allies. But you seem to think that we always have a choice as to whether we stay out of wars? The costs can only be guessed at. But war is not always a choice, sometimes others declare it first.

4) Does the interventionists' vision for our lives exclude American involvement in ANY theater of action anywhere on Earth? If not, can they identify any country anywhere on whose behalf Americans should not be forced to fight?

4) Chechnya

5) Some people think that if Georgia falls to Putin's nefarious agenda, that the rest of Europe will inexorably follow. Would they care to estimate when the rest of Europe will begin to fall to Russia.

5) Yes, and I also know the winning lottery numbers...will be numbers.

6) Do they know the scale of our national debt today? $13 trillion--$200,000 for every breathing US citizen. Do they have any idea how this growing debt will be discharged?

6) And just think of the effect on teen pregnancy! (I.e, what is the direct relation here?)

7) Is there some benchmark of American poverty at which Americans may finally be permitted to lay aside their burden of fighting all villains as if our government's jurisdiction were the entire globe?

7) Oh, please, you should have stopped at 6!

(Edited by Ted Keer on 8/17, 12:22am)


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Post 27

Sunday, August 17, 2008 - 11:41amSanction this postReply
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If I take a shot at responding to Ted's replies to my questions, this is what I come up with:

1. I wanted to know if we are willing to commit to putting troops on the ground before we start our intervention - but my question was rejected (Unfair and a Compound question? I know about the President and Congress). I'm asking a question designed to solicit an answer to what kind of approach should our country have towards foreign affairs - Seemed to me like a reasonable question to ask. Do we blunder ahead with no forethought, and then act surprised if we find ourselves in a war or should we have a policy on these things?

2. The second question was "Should we be willing to go forward with military intervention if Putin remains intransigent?" and Ted's short answer was "Yes" - he went on to talk about other options. Looking at other options is fine, but here is the stark, ugly truth about interventionism: That "Yes" is acceptance of a bloody, destructive war with a nuclear power as an acceptable outcome over the conflict in Georgia.

3. When I asked about the costs of a war: "Will intervening directly enhance or constrict our liberty in the United States. Astute readers will immediately grasp that foreign "wars of liberation" curtail our liberty as American citizens in the form of higher taxes, more national debt, an intrusive (and dangerous) national security state, and the heightened and real danger of increased Terrorist blowback." Ted's answer is interesting in three ways - He doesn't address the sad nature of liberties lost, taxes raised, ballooning national debt, or increased danger to our security. Second, he claims that costs can only be guessed at - as if they're a total mystery, as if we couldn't count body bags, as if wars don't cost billions of dollars a year, and as if we can't count specific liberties lost. The rush to war is always easier if one doesn't look at the costs. Finally, there is the statement that we "have no choice" in war. Well, actually, if we aren't attacked (i.e., no self-defense involved) then we have all the choice we need. We could have chosen not to go to war in Vietnam, Iraq, or Korea - and we can choose not to go to war in Georgia.

4. I asked, "Does the interventionists' vision for our lives exclude American involvement in ANY theater of action anywhere on Earth? If not, can they identify any country anywhere on whose behalf Americans should not be forced to fight?" Ted gave me a direct answer to this question. He said, "Chechnya" - are we to infer that ANY nation (other than Chechnya) is one we are willing to send American's to suffer and die for? I see no principle or guideline being offered as to what are the conditions that can trigger our military involvement - that was what I wanted. You see, if we drop self-defense, there ought to be something in its place. But all we have is 'not Chechnya.'

5. One of the claims for why we must intervene in Georgia is that if we don't, one by one, all the nations of Europe will be invaded. Sounded to me like motivation by fear based upon unfounded prediction. So I asked, "Some people think that if Georgia falls to Putin's nefarious agenda, that the rest of Europe will inexorably follow. Would they care to estimate when the rest of Europe will begin to fall to Russia." No attempt was made at an answer that might shore up the otherwise unfounded assertion.

6. Our nation is in serious fiscal trouble and military adventures are extremely expensive, so I asked, "Do they know the scale of our national debt today? $13 trillion--$200,000 for every breathing US citizen. Do they have any idea how this growing debt will be discharged?" No serious answer - advocates of interventionism rarely talk about the costs.

Divorcing the use of military force from the principle of self-defense results in what we see in all the different calls for intervention. Without that principle anyone can come up ad hoc "justifications" for national self-interest and there is no standard for shooting them down. This is why interventionism amounts to a demand for a blank check on the lives of our military, the savings of the citizens of this nation, and the fiscal future of our children. It isn't just a coincidence that reason and liberty are left as walking wounded along the way.


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Post 28

Sunday, August 17, 2008 - 7:57pmSanction this postReply
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John said: "Difference is Georgia in the past few years has been improving, while Venezuela has been regressing.

Your readiness to selectively omit facts is a sign of intellectual dishonesty."

There you go again, attacking my integrity and impugning my honesty. Do you see how that sort of aggressive tactic might lead to a less civil discourse?

To address your specific assertion: I gave you a link to an international human rights monitoring group that recently downgraded Georgia from a 3 to a 4 for both types of freedom they monitor. I included their quotes about the specific, very recent actions taken by the Georgian government that led to this downgrade.

If you have some facts that would lead you to believe would counterbalance these authoritarian moves by the Georgian government, I would like to see them so I can consider whether their assessment is unbalanced.

But, to say I'm selectively omitting facts when I've given damning specifics to bolster my assertions is not a productive path for rational discourse.

I will freely stipulate that Venezuela appears to be heading toward authoritarianism faster than Georgia. Chavez is a train wreck in progress. And I've already stipulated that Georgia, by the dismaying standards of that region, is less worse than most every nearby country except for possibly Turkey, and in particular is not as bad as Russia, which is bad and rapidly getting much worse. But, you'd be on shaky ground to consider Georgia a place that is anywhere near as free as the Western democracies, or a place that has experienced an unbroken record of progress. Shutting down opposition news media and jailing your political rivals is bad news.


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Post 29

Sunday, August 17, 2008 - 8:44pmSanction this postReply
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Jim you ignored my post. Maybe your not intellectually dishonest then, my mistake, you must just have atrocious reading skills.

I don't have a problem with the source you cited (which is Freedom House, which I have cited here on these forums for years, a lot longer than you have), what I have a problem with is you selectively choosing which data about Georgia to give (you didn't give any of the previous years) while ignoring Russia's score and morally equating Georgia with Russia which you still haven't rescinded the comparison. Those are the facts you are omitting, which means you are just cherry picking the data to suit your own relativist claims.

Again, since the Rose Revolution in 2003, the country has seen significant improvements in becoming a pro-business friendly environment while still maintaining a democratically elected government with free elections and has significantly reigned in police corruption. The set back they had in the past year was regarding journalistic freedom, and you are cherry picking that to mean they are authoritarian, but compared to what? Russia? And would you also consider America to have an authoritarian government because it has the second largest corporate tax rate in the world?

But, you'd be on shaky ground to consider Georgia a place that is anywhere near as free as the Western democracies


It's a hell of a lot nearer to Western democracy than Russia is. It was on a direct path to being such a democracy because it desperately wanted admission into the EU and NATO. It had the incentive to get there, and was getting there with only a minor setback in journalistic freedom and "prison conditions". I don't mean to down play the negatives but what also isn't fair is down playing the positives and the progress, and the potential for more progress. NATO has in recent years become more stringent on its admission requirements which include certain democratic institutions be in place before membership, and the EU as well has similar requirements including economic conditions be met. This was Georgia's aspiration, through this approach there would have been progress, but you don't give a damn about any salient steps towards the kind of freedom Western Europe enjoys, you are more than happy to see them burn at the hands of Russian tanks because they are "authoritarian" over having too many pro-government journalists and poor prison conditions.

I don't care if you think I'm being unfair in attacking your integrity, because at this point in the discussion, it is clear you seriously lack intellectual integrity.






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Post 30

Sunday, August 17, 2008 - 11:41pmSanction this postReply
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JOHN SAID: "Jim you ignored my post. Maybe your not intellectually dishonest then, my mistake, you must just have atrocious reading skills.

I don't have a problem with the source you cited (which is Freedom House, which I have cited here on these forums for years, a lot longer than you have), what I have a problem with is you selectively choosing which data about Georgia to give (you didn't give any of the previous years) while ignoring Russia's score and morally equating Georgia with Russia which you still haven't rescinded the comparison."

AFTER I said:

"And I've already stipulated that Georgia, by the dismaying standards of that region, is less worse than most every nearby country except for possibly Turkey, and in particular is not as bad as Russia, which is bad and rapidly getting much worse."

Notice any irony here? Noticed how you ignored my previous posts, and then accused me of having "atrocious reading skills"? Notice how, once again, you launched a personal attack that is objectively not based on the facts in an attempt to discredit someone whose views you disagree with?

Do you see how this sort of tactic mars your credibility?

And, since you didn't apparently catch what I said previously, let me reiterate the point I've repeatedly made: Russia is considerably worse than Georgia. Georgia is, nonetheless, currently rather authoritarian, based on some recent actions that occurred there, and, in my opinion, is not currently such a bulwark of liberty that, in my opinion, it is in America's interests to go to war to defend them in this particular situation.

You have to be trying real hard to call a nuanced assessment like that "moral equivalence." And no, I'm not going to rescind what I said earlier, because I believe that it would be incredibly stupid and counterproductive and altruistic to go to war with Russia over this matter. I believe you are wrong about advocating military action. I'm not going to knuckle under and say you're right simply because you falsely and aggressively disparage my character in an attempt to intimidate me.

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Post 31

Monday, August 18, 2008 - 12:33amSanction this postReply
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Here is the executive summary of Freedomhouse.org's 2007 report on Georgia:

EXECUTIVE SUMMARY

Since Georgia’s independence, the country’s hybrid system has caused
widespread internal instability. For most of this period, the opposition and
independent media have enjoyed a high level of independence, but there
has been a lack of fair competition for political power, causing unconstitutional
changes of power in 1992 and 2003. ThewarsforsecessioninAbkhaziaandSouth
Ossetia from 1991 to 1993 brought some 15 percent of Georgia’s territory under
the control of unrecognized governments. These unresolvedconflicts as well as
tense relations with Russia, the major protector of secessionist regimes in these
areas, continue to challenge the stability of the country.
TheNovember2003eventsknownasthe“RoseRevolution,”whenPresident
Eduard Shevardnadze resigned following mass protests over rigged parliamentary
elections, brought to power a group of pro-Western reformers led by the charismatic
president Mikheil Saakashvili. Subsequent years were marked by success in rooting
out mass corruption, strengthening public institutions, and promoting robust
economic growth. As the Monitoring Committee of the Parliamentary Assembly of
the Council of Europe remarked in September 2007, “In a remarkably short time,
Georgia has made stunning progress in carrying out substantial economic, judicial,
and state reforms. It has laid the foundations that should allow Georgia to become
a prosperous liberal market economy and a fully fledgeddemocracygovernedby
human rights and the rule of law.”1
However, the crisis at the end of 2007 signifiedanimportantsetbackforGeorgia’s
democratic development. On September 27, the arrest on corruption charges of
Irakli Okruashvili, a former minister of defense turned opposition politician, led to
a series of protest rallies that reached a climax on November 2, when an estimated
50,000–75,000 people called for early parliamentary elections and amendments
to election legislation. As the rallies continued, the demands radicalized into calls
for the immediate resignation of the president. On November 7, the government
dispersed the rallies, closed down two major opposition-oriented TV stations, and
introduced a state of emergency that lasted nine days. Theseactionswerejustified
by the imminent danger of a coup. On November 8, the president unveiled his
plan to resign, with a call for snap presidential elections on January 5, 2008, as
well as a plebiscite on the date of the parliamentary elections. Imedi TV, the main
opposition channel, was accused of conspiring to overthrow the government, and
its broadcasting was temporarily suspended.
National Democratic Governance. Georgia’s mixed political system protects
major civil and political rights and provides for political pluralism and meaningful
expression of the public will. However, the unbalanced character of the system,
where the executive branch dominates other state agencies, combined with a
weak opposition prevent Georgia from becoming a consolidated democracy. The
effectivenessofthegovernmenthasincreasedconsiderablysincetheRoseRevolution,
especially in attracting public revenue and providing public goods. However, the
fact that opposition protests led to a political crisis ending in a nine-day state of
emergency exposed the vulnerability of Georgia’s democratic institutions. The
government’s lack of full territorial control also constitutes a continuing source
of instability. Reflecting the political crisis causedby mass rallies andthe resulting
setback to Georgia’s unbalanced system of governance, the rating for national democratic
governance is downgraded from 5.50 to 5.75.

Electoral Process.
Elections since the Rose Revolution have been generally free
and fair, overcoming widespread fraud hitherto endemic to the system. The2006
legislation on public financing for political parties and free TV airtime for electoral
campaigning has created a more even playing field for the government and opposition
parties. The dramatic events inNovember 2007showedthat the oppositionis
gaining strength, which led to demands for extra-constitutional changes of power
as well as disturbing occurrences of violence against opposition figures, thoughthe
crisis was resolved by calling for early elections. Although the crisis was returned to
the electoral track, owing to occurrences of violent and unconstitutional means in the
political competition the rating for electoral process worsened from 4.50 to 4.75.

Civil Society. The legislation regulating nongovernmental organizations (NGOs) is
quite liberal, and there are no impediments to their activities. Nonprofitorganizations
are easy to register, and the registration process was made even simpler in 2007. A
majority of the public appreciate the role of civil society in advancing democracy.
However, after the Rose Revolution, the sector’s visibility has diminished. NGO
cooperation with the government is productive in some areas, but there is no
stable mechanism for interaction between the government and civil society. There
are organizations with illiberal, extreme-right agendas, but government has been
successful in curbing their activities so the groups are free to express their opinions
but violence has largely stopped and their influenceis marginal. Thesocial base
for NGOs is rather narrow, and organizations in most regions outside the capital
are less developed. They are dependent primarily on foreign funding. Tradeunions
exist but have little influence.The rating for civil society remains unchanged at 3.50.

Independent Media. Georgia’s Constitution and legislation ensure a liberal
environment for the development of independent media. The 2004 Law on Freedom of Speech and Expression took libel off the criminal code and relieved
journalists of legal responsibility for revealing state secrets. However, Georgian
media demonstrate weak editorial independence and low professional standards and
are often used to promote the political interests of their owners. Still, pluralism of
voices is guaranteed by the diversity of media ownership. Temporary suspension of
Imedi, the major opposition-oriented TV and radio, questioned the government’s
Nations in Transit 2008234
commitment to media freedom and exposed the fragility of media pluralism.
Owing to the setback in media freedoms caused by the nine-day state of emergency
and temporary closing of Imedi TV and radio, the rating for independent media is
downgraded from 4.00 to 4.25.

Local Democratic Governance. The Constitution does not define Georgia’s
territorial arrangement or the competences of subnational institutions of state
power. In December 2005, the Parliament adopted legislation that lays the
groundwork to create new local government institutions. In 2007, following the
October 2006 local elections, a new system of municipal government was instituted
with the potential to create meaningful and effectivemunicipal bodies. However,
it has not yet demonstrated the necessary level of competence and independence.
Owing to insufficientdatatoevaluatetheperformanceof thenewsystemof municipal
government, the rating for local democratic governance remains unchanged at 5.50.
Judicial Framework and Independence. Georgia’s Constitution provides
important safeguards for the protection of human rights and the independence
of the judiciary. However, since the Rose Revolution, the judiciary still finds it
difficult to withstand political pressure. There has been a decrease in abuse by law
enforcement officers, but the problem is still acute in some parts of the country. In
2007, there was an alarming trend of tampering with the property rights of citizens
and businesses. A set of reforms carried out in 2006–2007 will help strengthen
the independence of the judiciary. Positive reforms in the judiciary and penitentiary
system and reductions in police abuse were offset byproblems inthe areaof property
rights and excessive force used to disperse political demonstration; thus, the rating for
judicial framework and independence remains unchanged at 4.75.
Corruption. Although corruption remains an important concern, resolute
measures by the government started to bear fruit, as reflectedinconsiderably
lower perceptions of corruption among experts and the general public. While in
the aftermath of the Rose Revolution anticorruption efforts consistedof strong
but somewhat erratic punitive measures with insufficient respect fordueprocess,
later anticorruption policies have become more comprehensive and orderly. Lack of
transparency in a number of public institutions contributes to continuing concerns
about corruption. Georgia’s corruption rating remains at 5.00.
Outlook for 2008. Thequalityof snappresidential andregular parliamentary
elections in 2008 will be an important test for measuring the development,
direction, and effectiveness of Georgia’s democratic institutions. Inadditionto
gauging Georgia’s electoral procedures, the polls will test the maturity of opposition
parties, as well as the genuine freedom of the media and their ability to facilitate
meaningful policy dialogue. The expected recognition of Kosovo’s independence
may directly affect Russia’s attitude toward the self-proclaimed entities of Abkhazia
and South Ossetia, thus increasing tensions between Russia and Georgia and
destabilizing the zones of conflict.

Note the section on press freedom. There is no LEGAL impediment to speech. Revdealing state secrets is not a crime. The problem lies in the fact that media may be partisan based on ownership, and that there are low journalistic strandards! Is this a matter of state censorship? By Objectivist standards, rather than leftist standards, this is a totally free media.

Given the facts presented - the arrest of ONE politician on corruption charges, and a nine day (i.e, temporary) "period of emergency" in a country having recently undergone two revolutions in two decades, I would consider this a highly free country. I hope these facts have some import on those who have until now portrayed Georgia as somehow not up to par with the West.

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Post 32

Monday, August 18, 2008 - 12:41amSanction this postReply
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This statement of equivalence:

"It's a pissing match between two authoritarian regimes. We have no dog in this fight. Let's stay the hell out of this little war."

becomes this list of conditions for action:

"Are the threatened countries lacking in militaries of their own?

Have they asked us to use our military to intervene?

Have they offered to pay us to intervene at a price that would give us a substantial profit over the costs of the operation?

If not, how would us spending tax dollars to protect one of many oil suppliers to foreign countries NOT be altruism?

Is there some reason to believe that if the oil pipeline were taken over by Russia, that the oil supply would be shut off?

If not, why would it matter to us whether the people buying the oil bought it from Russia instead of Georgia?

Is this the only oil pipeline in the entire world? Are there no alternative sources of oil, including domestic untapped sources?
"

which becomes this qualified reservation,

"Russia is considerably worse than Georgia. Georgia is, nonetheless, currently rather authoritarian, based on some recent actions that occurred there, and, in my opinion, is not currently such a bulwark of liberty that, in my opinion, it is in America's interests to go to war to defend them in this particular situation."

due to what? Low qualities of press fredom, not by the standard of law, but quality?

Is Georgia worthy of our support up to and including the same alliance we offer Slovakia and Rumania (see the report above for CONCRETES) or not?

How much further will the isolationist retreat now?

Post 33

Monday, August 18, 2008 - 1:20amSanction this postReply
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Speaking for this isolationist, I have never been retreat.

I don't measure countries along this or that dimension when the applicable principle is self-defense and self-interest NOT altruism. I've held to that position from the beginning.

Others have accused me of engaging in moral equivalency and been refuted - I've never made such a claim and don't need it to support the valid principle by which a nation decides on military interventions.

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Post 34

Tuesday, August 19, 2008 - 1:59pmSanction this postReply
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I think we should just attack them (in Georgia only) and send their worthless two-bit asses packing.  They would lose big and fast in a pure military fight with even some of our forces.  Let Putin chew on that.

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Post 35

Tuesday, August 19, 2008 - 2:18pmSanction this postReply
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I think it just proves that within the government of Russia there are designs for their own imperialism. It's shocking if you consider the recent threat against Poland by Russian's own president in regards to Poland getting a shiny new defense system from the US. Maybe it's the military version of penis envy, but I can't be sure.

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Post 36

Tuesday, August 19, 2008 - 3:05pmSanction this postReply
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South Ossetia Isn't Kosovo

Hitchens on Putin's claim of moral equivalance.

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A comment. At the time of Kosovo's declaration of indepedence, Putin had announced, like Saddam to April Gillespie about Kuwait, just what his intentions were. Had the West simply responded with a strongly worded warning, a promise to admit Georgia to NATO immediately upon any hostilities, and had we sent one warship to dock in Georgia, none of this sordid affair would have happened.

Post 37

Tuesday, August 19, 2008 - 3:23pmSanction this postReply
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Jim:

JOHN SAID: "Jim you ignored my post. Maybe your not intellectually dishonest then, my mistake, you must just have atrocious reading skills.

I don't have a problem with the source you cited (which is Freedom House, which I have cited here on these forums for years, a lot longer than you have), what I have a problem with is you selectively choosing which data about Georgia to give (you didn't give any of the previous years) while ignoring Russia's score and morally equating Georgia with Russia which you still haven't rescinded the comparison."

AFTER I said:

"And I've already stipulated that Georgia, by the dismaying standards of that region, is less worse than most every nearby country except for possibly Turkey, and in particular is not as bad as Russia, which is bad and rapidly getting much worse."

Notice any irony here? Noticed how you ignored my previous posts, and then accused me of having "atrocious reading skills"? Notice how, once again, you launched a personal attack that is objectively not based on the facts in an attempt to discredit someone whose views you disagree with?

Do you see how this sort of tactic mars your credibility?


No. Because you initially posted a comment that morally equated Russia and Georgia as both "authoritarian regimes" that should just be left to fight their war on their own. It is an implied argument for equivalence. Only AFTER I challenged this tacit premise of equivalence, you then slowly backed away from that and said Georgia is a lot better than most of its neighbors in that region and especially better than Russia. But you maintained they were still authoritarian (once again regressing right back to a standard of relativism since the question is do they have a right to be free of Russian aggression?). I challenged your standards of what should be considered "authoritarian" and what makes a country authoritarian to the point that is no longer worth its preservation. You didn't really respond. I pointed out America has acted authoritarian in many aspects of our life including having an enormously high corporate tax rate, and that it doesn't mean that a more authoritarian government invading the United States should mean it should cede it's right to self-preservation because the United States is "authoritarian".

You see the problem of relativism here. Whenever we compare and decide whether a country is worth a damn or not, it must be compared to some standard. And Georgia is a pro-business, pro-democratic values with some minor civic liberty issues (prison conditions, a media industry largely pro-government, a politician detained for 9 days, a suppressing of a political demonstration) as compared to Russia which is anti-business, has nationalized their energy industry, as nationalized the media industry, has assassinated journalists and attempted to assassinate other heads of states, has consolidated all political power to an oligarchy of fascists, has significantly curbed the election process.

So again, Georgia is authoritarian is a meaningless statement unless you rationally evaluate what authoritarian means in this context and when a nation is authoritarian to the point it deserves its own destruction?

But you don't honestly assess the situation with any rational standard of evaluating. You move the goal post and slowly back down from premises you didn't admit your were wrong to have.

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Post 38

Tuesday, August 19, 2008 - 11:03pmSanction this postReply
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Floating Policy Driven Falsehoods

Read the summary of the Freedom House report here, and tell me whether Georgia's freedom by Objectivist (classical liberal) standards is at issue. In large part, Georgia is considered "not free" because it does not have such things a s non-partisan public television network like PBS (don't laugh - okay, do laugh) and all the "positive" amenities which lefists confuse with freedom. Your libertarian friend, John, is as concerned here with facts as he was in his blog lampooning Rand.

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Post 39

Wednesday, August 20, 2008 - 6:47amSanction this postReply
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With all the talk of the oil pipeline and its effect on matters, thought this would be of interest...
[from Durk and Sandy]


No Oil, No Problem . . . for the Nazis

In 1943, when Germany had virtually no sources of petroleum to fuel its Luftwaffe, U-boats, and Tiger tanks, its scientists (arguably among the best in the world at that time) didn’t turn to solar and wind power. . . . Hitler’s technical advisers turned to another energy source to keep their Wehrmacht running steadily for several years without petroleum. They used the Fischer-Tropsch process to convert coal into diesel fuel and employed the Bergius hydrogenation (or liquefaction) process to convert coal into aviation gasoline and high-quality truck and automobile gasoline.
— From The New American, June 9, 2008
Durk is very familiar with both processes. The conversion of coal to gasoline, diesel, heating oil, and jet fuel is economically feasible when oil prices are above about $80 per barrel. Each ton of coal produces about two barrels of oil. About 30% of the fuel used by South Africa’s commercial jet fleet is made from coal. Twenty-seven new coal-to-liquid conversion plants are under construction in Germany, and over 40 in Europe as a whole. Last May, the U.S. Air Force certified jet fuel made from coal for both subsonic and supersonic use; it cost $4.64 per gallon from a small pilot plant. Congressional Democrats passed a bill banning any further purchases. America has enough coal to supply 100% of our current liquid fuel needs at about $2.00 to $2.50 per gallon for over ONE THOUSAND YEARS, but “our” government has prohibited it. We are all victims of the Green Taliban, which is as fanatically opposed to carbon dioxide emissions as the Islamic Taliban is opposed to the public display of women’s ankles. For further information, please see:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fischer-Tropsch_process
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bergius_process

(Edited by robert malcom on 8/20, 6:48am)


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