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Post 20

Friday, September 12, 2008 - 5:55amSanction this postReply
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How does not voting amount to a protest vote, Jeff? If you vote third party, you can be construed as a voter who doesn't find a major party acceptible. If you don't vote, (even justifiably from disgust) you can simply be construed as apathetic.

I see you have abandoned your witch burning claim, which it was reasonable for John to take as serious in your original post. But you have simply settled on a more modern version of it. I quote you at length, pay attention to italicized part:

"The entire purpose of the Constitution was to provide limits on the powers, and circumscribe the scope and reach of government so that it could not trample upon individual rights. [Yes.] I no longer see any limits whatsoever to our government. [Well...] With the stroke of the pen from the courts, the administration or the legislature, government can now move into any area and exercise control over any aspect of our lives that it chooses. [Um...] It has already decided that it can take your property without cause and give it to a developer. [True!] As I said earlier, it can spy on any aspect of your life without any checks and balances. [No checks? Untrue.] Soon it will likely control your access to medical care and one day force you to bring an unwanted fetus to term, saddling you with a life-long responsibility. [Huh?] Really, what makes you think that censorship couldn't be imposed tomorrow if a significant enough "threat" where present? [Couldn't or wouldn't?] Yes, we still remain free to act in some capacity in this country. But all signs indicate that this is more the result of 200 years of massive cultural inertia rather than a clear commitment to the principles of individual rights and limited government."

The "forced to bear" a fetus charge is absurd. Who? The small percentage of Republican-voting activists who see this as a goal? With no check from the States, Federal and Supreme Courts, and the overwhelming pro-choice majority that would be elected if this eventuality came anywhere near reality? What mechanism exists to impose this on the 80-90% who would oppose such a thing?

And censorship? What mechanism exists to impose this? The Federal courts at every level would oppose this. Name one example of any current law or ruling anywhere near this. Name one single federal secret that the press doesn't now reveal when it finds it.

If you truly believe what you say here, why are you not voting Democrat? Do you expect a coup? If not, and we are that close, shouldn't Obama appointing the next federal judgships be your top priority?

(Edited by Ted Keer on 9/12, 8:24am)


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Post 21

Friday, September 12, 2008 - 9:31amSanction this postReply
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Aggregate Weighting of Abortion Issue

 

 

“. . . and one day force you to bring an unwanted fetus to term, . . .”

 

Yes, that is the idea of voiding Roe v. Wade. Forced labor for the irrational metaphysics of the RC Church and for the more ignorant among the Protestant sects. President Bush got two more justices on the Supreme Court to this end during his second term. That makes a total of three plus the Chief Justice. They need only one more.

 

Long Struggle


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Post 22

Friday, September 12, 2008 - 11:23amSanction this postReply
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Ted:

Clearly you and others have a radically different view of the world than I do. Things that I see as achievable trends with serious consequences you apparently believe are practical impossibilities. I see long discussions here about all sorts of issues that I find to be of relative unimportance when compared to that of the current state of indefinite lock-down of prisoners without charges and with no recourse to council, torture and rendition and warrantless searches, to name just a few. These are all very real things that have been achieved in this country over the past eight years. But instead of being outraged at these actions and arguing desperately for their repeal, there is a calm silence. And when I bring up these issues, John says:
    The civil liberties that have been curbed today is small potatoes when you compare the kind of liberties that were denied during past events. [...] a little historical perspective can ground these runaway fears.

I'm at a total loss to argue against this viewpoint. I guess I'm just one of those crazy kooks that doesn't get a warm and comfortable feeling from knowing that my freedom is being secured by historical precedent rather than by a rigid application of constitutional restrictions on the government's actions. You cannot understand what fact leads me to believe that censorship is a real possibility in this country? We have warrentless searches now and I haven't seen the great majority of Americans cry out against this. And the courts that you believe are our line of protection have not slapped this down. If that is possible, what check to you see on taking the next steps, ultimately resulting in censorship? No, I'm not saying that I believe that there is an inevitable trend that is leading us to censorship. I'm saying that the checks and balances that I rely upon to protect me from this eventuality have been seriously breached and this makes the future troublingly unpredictable.

You say that the repeal of right to an abortion is "absurd", but Stephen points out the obvious: the packing of the Supreme Court with justices that can and will eliminate this right with the stroke of a pen requires only one more pro-choice voice which is very likely under a McCain/Palin presidency. Often I get the feeling that our politicians are master magicians. They manage incredible acts of sleight of hand, misdirecting the public with one while conducting their real business with the other. You ask why I don't vote Democrat? Because I'm a single issue voter, and my issue is freedom, something that neither party understands any longer.

But what really surprises me is that everyone seems to think that voting vs. non-voting is an important issue. I personally could care less what people do. What is important to me is whether anything is being done to stem the tide that is eroding our freedom. I happen to believe that voting is a pacifier for the masses, letting people "feel" like they have a role to play in the direction of government when the truth is that their individual votes are of infinitesimal consequence. If it makes people happy and feel empowered, by all means, have at it. But I suspect that this outlet then satisfies most people's need for "action" and diverts them from protesting in more effective ways.

What I truly care about is the long view. To draw another comparison to Atlas Shrugged, John Galt didn't sit around trying to figure out whether it should be Wesley Mooch or Mr. Thompson that was in charge in Washington. Instead, he was trying to determine how, in the long run, to get the country back on the right track, and chose the method of having the men of minds go on strike. Well, there are two strategies to striking: withholding ones services and vocally presenting ones views and demands. If most people believe that it is yet too early to engage in the withholding, there is still the option of the vocal protest to raise awareness of the issues.

Regards,
--
Jeff

(Edited by C. Jeffery Small on 9/12, 11:26am)


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Post 23

Friday, September 12, 2008 - 11:56amSanction this postReply
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By the way, while this discussion has focused on some seriously negative aspects of the state of the world and reeks in pessimism, this is not representative of my overall outlook. I just ran across this Rand quote in an article on Jimmy Wales, and thought it was appropriate to help restore the proper balance and perspective.
    I do not think that tragedy is our natural fate and I do not live in chronic dread of disaster. It is not happiness, but suffering that I consider unnatural. It is not success, but calamity that I regard as the abnormal exception in Human Life.

Regards,
--
Jeff


Post 24

Friday, September 12, 2008 - 12:05pmSanction this postReply
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I quite share your concern, Jeff - but at the same time understand Ted's comment, all the moreso having read Liberal Fascism and the years of Wilson - which was, for practical purposes, a totalitarian reign where to even protest a disagreement of any kind of Wilson's ideas warrented jail or beatings or outright eliminations - a world much like seen in the anti-nazi films... that the country veared away from that 'progressive' or 'liberal fasciam' was remarkable, even as parts of its doctrinarianism resurfaced over times from FDR to the present...  and the present has an information flow like never seen before in history, where errors are now bringing forth rebuttals ever quicker and heard far wider than possible - a good sign that clamping a martial law over the land would involve civil war, as much of the military and national guard would not be so compliant as were those in european countries...

Yet you are right - those issues you raised ARE more important than the petty squabblings now generally being persued, and ought to be hollared from all the rooftops...  the problem is how to have them heard past self-deafened ears... [ "after all - if it is not affecting me, who am I to care...", and so on...]


Post 25

Friday, September 12, 2008 - 12:10pmSanction this postReply
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I should add - few of us really see the long view, that optimistic world of possibles... and we few are the vanguard, and yes, it is frustrating at times trying to get those down behind us to look beyond the block or the local hill to the land across the river yet unseen, and the path needed to traverse all of that...

as Rand would say, it is plotting one's life - and to do it well requires integrating not just the personal aspects of oneself, but the long and short terms of where to go, how to go, and WHY to go...

(Edited by robert malcom on 9/12, 12:13pm)


Post 26

Friday, September 12, 2008 - 12:21pmSanction this postReply
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Jeff, post #19 was beautifully written and addresses the very heart of the issue. It is the kind of clear statement of principle that should bring all who love of freedom, all Objectivists, closer together. It is sad that anyone's first response to it would be to quibble.



(Edited by Steve Wolfer on 9/12, 12:28pm)


Post 27

Friday, September 12, 2008 - 12:42pmSanction this postReply
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Thanks Steve!

Post 28

Friday, September 12, 2008 - 1:12pmSanction this postReply
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Robert:

Thanks for your thoughtful comments. Regarding the issue of an historical perspective on events in this country, I believe that there is one significant factor that changes the game for today.

While I am an advocate of open immigration, the immigration that has taken place in this country over the past fifty years has radically changed the political landscape. We have large numbers of people flooding in from Mexico and further south. These people have no exposure to living in a free, capitalist society. Their exposure upon entering this country is to be the recipients of welfare handouts from numerous sources. While many of these immigrants are hard-working, productive people, they do not share a tradition of freedom or individual rights, so their expectations for the role of government in society is skewed.

On the other hand, we have a large number of immigrants of professional stature from Africa and Europe. These people have lived under socialist policies for all of their lives and they bring that perspective with them. I know a large number of doctors that have come here from South Africa. They are all wonderful people, but every one of them supports the idea of nationalized medicine, which they see as the norm.

The net result is that the natural predisposition of the American populace towards individualism and freedom has been significantly watered down over time, and I no longer think that it is a force that can be trusted to right our ship of state. Again, there is no way to be certain of just what will happen in the future, but facts like these are alarming to me. I am happy to allow people from all over the world come to the US and seek a good life for themselves. All I ask is that I be protected from their actions and allowed to pursue the life that I choose for myself.

Regards,
--
Jeff

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