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Post 40

Sunday, September 14, 2008 - 1:37pmSanction this postReply
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Ted wrote:
    I think that generosity (a willingness to take a person's arguments in the best possible light) is a good policy when your "opponent" isn't being rude or evasive, and there is some ambiguity in what he is, with apparent honesty, trying to say. As my boyfried says, there's no need to get attackatory.

Ted:

I didn't think I was attacking either you or Jay - just drawing conclusions and making observations from what was said, as best as I was able to understand it. And that is also how I read Steve's responses. I also agree with your statement that it is best to try to interpret a person's statements in the best possible light. But I don't see how my comments regarding Jay's post misinterpret what he was saying.

As to my comment above regarding some of your posts, it is true that sometimes I have difficulty understanding just what the thrust or purpose of your arguments are. Often your posts are razor sharp, but sometimes I'm afraid I have trouble. That may be my failure to be aware of some overriding context. But in any event, I'm sorry if you read that as an attack, because the last thing I want to be labeled is "attackatory". Although, I'm now adding that word to my lexicon! :-)

Regards,
--
Jeff

Post 41

Sunday, September 14, 2008 - 1:45pmSanction this postReply
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Cheese and Crackers. The "attackatory" remark was a bit of levity. I do not feel that I am being attacked. Agghhhhh!

I suggest that when you don't understand my thrust that you consider whether I may be being ironic. I tend to confuse people with my irony.

Post 42

Sunday, September 14, 2008 - 2:16pmSanction this postReply
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Ted,

I don't think anyone mistakes Jay for an enemy, but respect for his intelligence coupled with those strange kind of wishy-washy positions where he acknowledges that x is immoral yet implies that maybe we should still do it anyway... That is best served by sharply pointed observations from the rest of us.

I agree with your statement: "I think that generosity (a willingness to take a person's arguments in the best possible light) is a good policy when your "opponent" isn't being rude or evasive, and there is some ambiguity in what he is, with apparent honesty, trying to say." I have only been harsh in my condemnation of involuntary servitude - not Jay, and critical of Jay in riding a fence where an item is immoral - kind of a have my cake and eat it too, As if he were saying, "Hey, I admitted it is immoral, isn't that enough? I only want to do it sometimes!".

Like the eminent domain issue... One can be totally opposed to it because it is wrong, or one can be in favor of it - which is totalitarian, even if the person isn't aware that it is, or one can try to straddle the fence with a pragmatic position - it is okay when it is 'necessary' but not desirable the rest of the time. Jay can't take that last position after admitting that it is immoral. This is really kind of unique here at ROR. We often disagree on how to apply some principle, like self-defense, but we agree on the principle. In the Dissent area, someone comes in that doesn't agree with the principle and we argue that. But Jay agrees with the principle, and it's application, but still thinks there is some room for violating it. That, in effect, is an argument for a very different kind of ethics.

(Jay, does it feel like being talked about by people when you are sitting right there? :-)

Post 43

Sunday, September 14, 2008 - 2:28pmSanction this postReply
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Steve, was that last post directed to me, or to Jay?

Post 44

Sunday, September 14, 2008 - 2:32pmSanction this postReply
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Both

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Post 45

Sunday, September 14, 2008 - 4:52pmSanction this postReply
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Steve,

urQ But lets cut this short. Your chain of reasoning in your last post goes like this: I ought to defend my own rights, government protects my rights for me, by extension I protect my own rights when I'm in the military, therefore I should volunteer to serve in the military for 1 year.

I never said 'should'. I only suggested it was a rational choice.

Also, I've never suggested any imponderables such as emotional patriotism, love of nation, or (certainly not) altruism. If you assume these are my reasons, you have assumed incorrectly. I did mention that I think some who join do not realize the value of their contribution. The may hold some of these other beliefs. Each conscript joins for their own reasons, many simply for room, board, and the chance to learn skills transferable to the private (no, not buck private) sector.

While I agree that the government is (though it often forgets) our servant, I am at loss to understand your seeming opposition to one's entering into the military. Someone DOES have to do it. It is logical to encourage, support, and respect volunteers from among our citizenry. Would you prefer hiring foreign nationals. Are the Huns still available? : )

jt

Post 46

Sunday, September 14, 2008 - 5:19pmSanction this postReply
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Jay, I NEVER said I was opposed to people joining the military. Here is what I said in post 37, "I see the military as a proud and honorable profession because they do indeed serve a good purpose. But so do doctors and engineers. Members of the military risk their lives, but if they do it for others, that is altruistically, they shouldn't. The more they approach their profession as professionals and to be the best they can be for their own sake, the better off they are and the better the job they will do."

You said, "Also, I've never suggested any imponderables such as emotional patriotism, love of nation, or (certainly not) altruism. If you assume these are my reasons, you have assumed incorrectly. I did mention that I think some who join do not realize the value of their contribution. The may hold some of these other beliefs. Each conscript joins for their own reasons, many simply for room, board, and the chance to learn skills transferable to the private (no, not buck private) sector." I don't intend to put words in your mouth, but I do want to point out that you used the word "duty" in the same sentence as military service and in a thread about service, in a discussion about volunteering for the military - so forgive me for mentioning some of the motives that are common in that context. Also, you use the word "conscript" which I assume you understand means "slave" in the sense that it is not used with those who volunteer. So there are no "conscripts" who join for their own reasons. And you specifically said you are not arguing any altruistic views, but you do seem to use that language: like 'volunteering,' 'contribution,' and this whole concept of 'service' (not military service), - that is, service to others - i.e., "universal service."

This whole thing is too much of a mess for me. It is all like some weird scenario where someone suggests that the corporation's security department be augmented by of a special volunteer program and that they should request that various employees donate their time and work as either security guards or maybe serving food in the corporate cafeteria which would be a universal service and the corporation would pay their taxes for that period - it would be a volunteer service but somehow not altruistic .



(Edited by Steve Wolfer on 9/14, 5:39pm)


Post 47

Sunday, September 14, 2008 - 5:42pmSanction this postReply
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Steve, Ted, et al,

I like to believe that I can take the heat, and generally do know when a statement I make might be looked upon with a suspicious eye. Please know that I do not do it for sport or entertainment. I think such discussion, with knowledgeable Objectivist supporters, is instructive (hopefully in both directions). Also (cheese und crackers- we are quoting Harry Frigg, are we not?), I do not feel myself a recent victim of any 'attackatory remarks'.

I really do not wish to confuse anyone with my approach, which -at least to me - seems rational. I suggested in post 33 (but now think I poorly phrased) that it is possible to hold one belief, but to still examine its implications in the real world - viz. how does it translate into action, and does that translation (interpretation) work? I even stated that I thought it was essential.

I think that sometimes, when you get down to discussing actual cases, you will find an Objectivist interpretation that will satisfy all parties. Steve, you can probably prove or disprove this quickly by looking at Bill's post 42 (last paragraph) regarding that war example on 'eminent domain', and telling us if you agree with his reasoning. If you agree with that, then my approach at least can lead to constructive results.

Of course, that and a quarter will get me on the Staten Island Ferry (alas, I remember when it was a nickel)

jt








Post 48

Sunday, September 14, 2008 - 6:29pmSanction this postReply
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Hey Jay, what does urQ mean? I assune the Q is for "quote", but I can't figure out the "ur" part.

All I can find with Google is:

URQ: Unregistration Request

UrQ: Short for Ur Quattro (The original Quattro automobile)


Regards,
--
Jeff


Post 49

Sunday, September 14, 2008 - 6:49pmSanction this postReply
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I assumed it meant "your" quote - but that was just my guess.

Post 50

Sunday, September 14, 2008 - 6:51pmSanction this postReply
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Jay,

Here is Bill's post 42 from the Privatization of Roads thread: f you're going to argue that expropriating someone's property in wartime is justifiable, you'll have to show that by not selling it, the owner is somehow giving aid and comfort to the enemy or allowing the enemy to establish a beachhead, or some similar rationale. In such cases, the owner would be guilty of initiating force, and your seizing the property would be an exercise of retaliatory force. But barring that, you would have no right to seize the property. Seizing it simply in in order to build a road that is more convenient for motorists is not justifiable, precisely because it does violate the owner's property rights."

Bill's starts from the assumption that ethical rights are absolute, primary to political or legal principles and not arbitrary (and he, of course, could say that better, and can jump in correct me if I misstate his position). So how could someone's right to a piece of property cease to be? Only if they had violated the rights of another. (How else would society have the right to imprison someone for a crime unless that crime involved violation of another's rights.)

So, Bill reasons that if withholding of a piece of property during war was, due to the nature of the piece of property, so crucial to the war effort that it could be seen as acting on behalf of the enemy that the person lost their rights from siding with the enemy. Obviously it is a very dangerous position for government and supporters to take since during the prosecution of war it is easy to let inflamed emotions risk violating the rights of someone in the name of patriotism, but that is, none-the-less, a valid position.

There is another explanation and it is one given by Ayn Rand and it was recently posted here by Ed in one of the threads (can't find it right now, maybe Ed can chime in). It is a statement of what happens to rights in times of extreme emergency. In that case if the existence of the nation - not national security, or trade interests or current GDP - the absolute existence as a nation was near extinction, and it is a moral nation, one founded on individual rights, it would be moral to act in defense of the life itself of all the citizens during that emergency even if it meant ignoring the rights derived from that primary right - I'm less sure that this is a valid argument - because Rand made it in reference to individuals and NOT in reference to the act of a government.

Both cases are just statements of the similar circumstances; that an individual's rights may cease to be absolute only under self-defense circumstances - one where the owner's actions are seen as violating rights and the other where the lives of the nation's citizens are so threatened with an attack that preserving life itself requires actions that under other circumstances would be wrong.

The short answer is that I agree with Bill.




Post 51

Monday, September 15, 2008 - 6:21amSanction this postReply
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Steve,

Thanks for looking. So we have at least one case. The other example, with far less merit, deals with obtaining right of way for a highway. The government's objective is safer roads, faster evacuation routes, and improved trucking access between markets.

I was beaten up earlier over the question of regulatory laws, where most appeared to agree that road safety was a sole and special case where regulations were acceptable, because they prevented violence against (injury to) individuals*. If road safety is such a special case, does that have any bearing upon this right of way/eminent domain issue? If not, why. If yes, to what degree?

jt

*I disagreed, arguing that regulations are either acceptable or not acceptable, and that the greater importance was what regulations were written - that you could control the quality of, but not prevent the issuance of regulations... but that is another thread.

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Post 52

Monday, September 15, 2008 - 7:33amSanction this postReply
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I don't get why folks think national service is such a good idea considering some career military are completely against it (I don't blame them, who would want to babysit my emotionally disturbed hide for 2 to 4 years? :3). Beyond the career military folks' concerns, the fact is that national service asserts the magical belief one owes a debt exceeding all other debts to something that technically does not exist as an entity onto itself. It's like stating that I owe capitalism, evolutionary biology, or some other idea a debt because they've lead to a better life for me in some fashion. That's quite the mind trip if you think about it, owing a debt to an idea. o_O

Post 53

Monday, September 15, 2008 - 7:51amSanction this postReply
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Jeff,

Steve is right. "your quote". I lack Ted's mastery of html.

jt

Post 54

Monday, September 15, 2008 - 8:48amSanction this postReply
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Brede, that's an excellent point about the nonsense of the debt! I was very surprised when the two presidential candidates started going bonkers over national service. Then I was surprised to find even one person on ROR that wanted to give it serious consideration.



(Edited by Steve Wolfer on 9/15, 10:11am)


Post 55

Monday, September 15, 2008 - 9:25amSanction this postReply
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But that is not the premise - the premise is service to the country, to which one is 'owed' by the fact of being in it... it is the same falseness of 'the village' that Hillary is so enamoured of, that tribalist mentality... the socalled 'moral' ideal of otherism, that of something 'greater' than devotion to oneself......

Post 56

Monday, September 15, 2008 - 12:15pmSanction this postReply
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Smalls,

At this stage of the game, it looks to me like we can choose our poison or have it chosen for us. I'm trying to more pragmatic than cynical here, though it's fair to say I've got a touch of the latter.

Wolfer,

Conscription... might I remind you of your compulsory jury duty? :)

Jordan

Post 57

Monday, September 15, 2008 - 12:55pmSanction this postReply
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Jay writes:
    might I remind you of your compulsory jury duty?

Jay:

I saw the smiley, but in all seriousness, jury duty is another form of compulsion and should be eliminated for the same reason that we should oppose the draft or national service; because force is inappropriate in any form of dealing between people. The reason you are getting so much resistance to your "pragmatic" approach to this topic is that some of us know that once you concede the underlying principal to the enemy (i.e., that the government has any positive claim on our person), then the battle has already been lost. Rights, like all principles, must be defended and upheld in total or not at all. There is no middle ground.

Regards,
--
Jeff


Post 58

Monday, September 15, 2008 - 1:07pmSanction this postReply
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Yes, "of course" there should be no jury duty. Someone will provide you with justice. Let them bear the cost. It's not like you're an anarchist. You just don't think there is any cost to your freedom. To you it will not be justice unless you can get it for free.



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Post 59

Monday, September 15, 2008 - 1:13pmSanction this postReply
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Jay writes,

I know I am guilty of taking a more pragmatic approach toward achieving Objectivist goals. 
This statement essentially states the error that underlies the conflict between Jay and others in the foregoing exchanges, which is the failure to constrain a chosen value to logical consistency with the strategy for attaining it.  
Every entity has a specific identity and acts in a manner which is consistent with it.  When a value is chosen, it may thus be attained only through a series of entity interactions which are causally consistent with its identity.  This constrains the pursuit of any value to a strategy which is logically consistent with it, and simultaneously invalidates all others.  This is the metaphysical basis of goal directed action. 

Classes of entities sharing a similar essential attribute will act in a manner which is consistent with that attribute, ie. all round thing roll, etc.  This constrains the pursuit of this class to a class of entity interactions which are causally consistent with the essential attribute, ie. rounding a surface creates an entity which can roll, etc.  This is the metaphysical basis of principled action. 

Since these results are derived directly from the notions of identity and causation they apply at the metaphysical level, and thus to all of reality, and thus there can be no exceptions to them.  

Now, this completely invalidates the strategy of pragmatism, or acting "practically" since what is meant by this is that the strategies for attaining values do not need to be logically reconciled with the values intended for attainment, and it is the failure to see this as false that leads to the nonsense of defending freedom with conscription, property rights with taxation, etc.  

Now Jay also writes,
The point is that I can see putting in a year of military service as being a price tag for living under the protection of the government.  The matter still, however should remain a decision of the individual man or woman. 
It is not fully clear from this that Jay crosses the value of freedom with the strategy of slavery, since one should pay for the services one receives, government services being no exception as long as those services are morally valid and voluntarily received, but in the context of an advocation of pragmatism it certainly invites this interpretation.  

But, Jay writes also

The "my way or the highway" approach just doesn't work - particularly when one is in the minority . . . we not only fail to make progress, but we can easily lose ground to more obnoxious philosophical ideas . . .
Here the line is clearly crossed.  That the advocates of reason are in the minority is merely a circumstance of history, and does not in any way affect the validity of rational philosophy, and thus constitutes no basis for its modification.  Further, it is an horrendous mistake to think that such modifications are necessary to make it more palatable to the powers that be, since this necessarily requires the surrender of what is true and right to what is false and wrong and thus only furthers the cause of evil, and furthermore since there is no rational basis for doing so, corrupts the rationality, and in turn the moral character, of anyone who does so.  If you want to lose ground against "obnoxious" (the correct word here is evil) philosophies then try surrendering ground to them, and see how much faster it advances than before. 

It may seem daunting to have to stand alone, or with a small group, against the rest of the human race, and defend rational philosophy but if we don't do it there will be no one, and all hope will be lost.  We are fated to this by history and there is nothing anyone can do about it so this is the way it will be.  

(Edited by Robert E. Milenberg on 9/15, 1:16pm)


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