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Tuesday, December 30, 2008 - 3:29amSanction this postReply
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I've recently heard of these trends, and I find them compelling. Information is a bit sparse though. Does anyone know any details? For those of you who haven't heard these terms used this way, shrugging is exactly what you would think, while gulching is setting up an underground economy among voluntary participants. Does this sound feasible? Are any laws being broken?

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Tuesday, December 30, 2008 - 5:05amSanction this postReply
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Hi Ryan.

I'd be really interested in this, too.

After the year we've had, I kind of thought some people might attempt societies like this.


Post 2

Tuesday, December 30, 2008 - 5:15amSanction this postReply
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The issue with gulching that I have noticed in my limited reading is that most people involved physically remove themselves to a remote location to avoid interference. This is problematic for obvious reasons. I'm curious to see if a better solution has been found, given modern technology. Is it illegal to set up an economy with alternate means of exchange?

Post 3

Tuesday, December 30, 2008 - 6:39amSanction this postReply
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Ryan,
David Friedman has speculated about the possibility of using strong encryption to create underground economies based on on-line transfer of credits. He explores the ways the government will try to protect itself against this potential loss of revenue. I can't remember all of his articles but here is a start:

http://www.daviddfriedman.com/Academic/Strong_Privacy/Strong_Privacy.html

I'm certain it would not work. The IRS operates above the constitution and would confiscate all of the assets of anyone even suspected of involvement in this activity. You would be required to give up any encryption keys to allow them access, if you didn't you would lose everything they could find and you'd go to jail where you couldn't spend what you'd hidden. People would have to operate in "cells". The anonymity required would obviate the personal recognition and trust needed for people to feel comfortable trading with one another. It would be hard to build a reputation of character. That's my take.

Post 4

Tuesday, December 30, 2008 - 7:16amSanction this postReply
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Welcome to the movement, Ryan!  There are, indeed, compounds of patriots in the hills.  They have been there for 30 years, some of them, some for only ten or so.  They all still waiting for that final armegeddon. It depends a lot on who you choose to hang out with and what resources you have to start with.

VONU means invulnerablilty to coercion and there are urban vonuans.  Others live mobile lifestyles.  Some are in the hills.  But it is a known strategy.

Here in SE Michigan, we have a lot of Henry Ford and Thomas Edison resources and I have read about their camping expeditions.  You take a couple of cars and a couple of trucks and a couple of servants ...  and it's just like Galt's Gulch, all nicely appointed. 

Galt's Strike was for people who actually mattered in life.  As Bill Gates and George Soros and Ted Turner and even the Objectivists -- Fred Smith, Mark Cuban, T. J. Rodgers, et al. -- seem not interested, it is pretty clear that civilization is going to continue pretty much as we know it.  The basic premise of the strike was that the striker can get along without the moochers and looters.  Think of that when you stop into a little grocery store and there's a deified elephant or a crucified carpenter behind the cash register.  Don't buy anything... just keep walking til you find an Objectivist gas station... Of course, that would depend on a real Objectivist doing business with the international looter oil cartels of the crowned heads of Europe and the Middle East.  (I think Marathon is still American. but as for BP and Shell... and don't even think about Citgo...) 

Are you taking your laptop?

Civilization works because different people have different goods and services to offer each other.  Beyond the exchange of values, you really do not need to care what they named their dog.  That's what "different" means. 

And PS -- how's that friendly discussion about cops coming along?  Who are you going to get along with when you can't get along with the only people who bother to disagree with you?

RKR:   Is it illegal to set up an economy with alternate means of exchange?
Exchange what?

Aside from a couple hundred dollars worth of groceries -- do you sell those? -- in the last month, my wife and I bought a couple of sweatshirts, some flash memories, a pair of shoes (me) and a pair of boots (her).  You got any way to cryptographically transport stuff like that ... or to cryptographically produce it?

Nice thought, though...
... keep thinking ...

(Edited by Michael E. Marotta on 12/30, 7:43am)


Post 5

Tuesday, December 30, 2008 - 9:08amSanction this postReply
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There is also the many thousands of folks hiding in plain site.

I haven't had an employee in 25 years.

Should I have? I'll wait for the IRS to figure out how to tax me on a 'you should have had employees' basis. They're not quite there yet.

Maybe not ever; in any case, it's moot.

Gee. Where did all the good paying jobs go?

reguarda,
Fred



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Post 6

Tuesday, December 30, 2008 - 9:11amSanction this postReply
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I am sorry, but "gulching and shrugging" is what a cat does when it brings up a hairball.

Post 7

Tuesday, December 30, 2008 - 9:38amSanction this postReply
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One way or another, people are becoming less productive (shrugging). This is because productive people have less resources to create values with due to large wealth redistribution.

Gulching is risky if you create lots of values. If you moved to HK/SG/Ireland it would be much less risky.

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Post 8

Tuesday, December 30, 2008 - 10:19amSanction this postReply
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Michael, I get a strong vibe of condescension and snideness in your post. As I have become accustomed to that sort of thing when conversing with the intelligent, I would like to ask. Is it an intentional jibe at me or is it innocent syntax?
As I mentioned, the gulching thing is problematic, for the reasons you mentioned. I am intrigued by the possibility of setting something like that up using technology. I'm certainly not advocating doing anything like that tomorrow, just exploring the idea.
All people matter in life Michael. Galt's strike is a work of fiction, so it has to be larger than life to be entertaining. I believe every strike in history involved the little guys for the most part.
I agree with you, its damn hard to support objectivist businesses. They're really not out there much.
Exchange what? You said it yourself. Exchange of values.
BTW, I would consider my discussion about police to be going quite well. As far as I can tell I've managed to avoid making it too personal. I don't think any blood feuds will be declared, and highly doubt this disagreement could ever go to violence. I've used the opportunity to be entertained and to think about my position as well as Teresa's. I've stated that I wouldn't automatically assume that Teresa is wrong in future discussions, just because we disagree on this one. If that isn't getting along with people that disagree with me, what is your definition of getting along?
As to the insinuation that I provide nothing of value. Groceries can be grown, the goods you've mentioned can be produced, I personally have the skills to provide security and medical care.
-----------------
My question remains, is it illegal to seek alternate means of exchange? What law would apply? Would tax evasion be the method used to discourage this sort of thing?
-----------------
Ted, They're not my terms, dude. :)



Post 9

Tuesday, December 30, 2008 - 12:36pmSanction this postReply
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Ryan:

As a newcomer, I don't know if you're aware of  Free State Project but when worse comes to worse it could be more viable than it is right now.

Here's an article from the Wall Street Journal (not known to be a scare-mongering publication) that raises the consciousness of the really dire situation that we're in. I don't think that we will probably descend in the manner that is described but I don't think that more than 1 or 2% of the population understands how serious it is. Those who do will be motivated to protect themselves from any such development.  
 
 
Sam
 
 


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Post 10

Tuesday, December 30, 2008 - 12:45pmSanction this postReply
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I predict not.  See you in 2 years.

Post 11

Tuesday, December 30, 2008 - 2:18pmSanction this postReply
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I read the prediction of the country's impending fragmentation a few weeks ago. It seems plausible, but I'm unsure of the timeframe involved. I think we would have to be in the end stages of a collapse of the welfare state before such an event could occur. I would honestly hope that such a collapse would lead to an increased demand for state's rights as opposed to a complete breakup.
The free state thing seems like an interesting concept, wiki linked seems to imply that its stalling though. Any intel on why the coordinators keep resigning?

Post 12

Tuesday, December 30, 2008 - 2:54pmSanction this postReply
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RKR:  Michael, I get a strong vibe of condescension and snideness in your post. As I have become accustomed to that sort of thing when conversing with the intelligent, I would like to ask. Is it an intentional jibe at me or is it innocent syntax?

Well, I am sorry.  The fingers fly sometimes when the brain is not engaged.  All I meant was that you, like many others before you, asked the question that has no easy answer.  Welcome to the movement.  Read about the Free State Project, for sure, but also read about Werner K. Stevens and Atlantis and the Minerva Project.  I was not being mean toward you, only throwing up my hands and rolling my eyes and sighing, "Here we go again..."  Basically, it doesn't work, because if it does, you never hear about it. 
All people matter in life Michael. Galt's strike is a work of fiction, so it has to be larger than life to be entertaining. I believe every strike in history involved the little guys for the most part.
Well, to some extent -- perhaps a larger extent -- the current collapse is, in part, due to the shrugging and all.  Enron, BearStearns, GM and Citicorp were not the work of objectivists, but of middle of the roaders, safe people, dependable, unexciting people who worked hard, perhaps, but who had no work ethic.  I believe, further, that the dot.com meltdown was caused by business casual dresswear that reflected a casual business attitude.  On the other hand, Cypress Semiconductor is successful because T. J. Rodgers has a no-nonsense attitude that he expects, instills, or extracts from others -- just to name one.  The success of Microsoft enshrines the failure of mediocrity.  The Macintosh was the better machine, but "you can't get fired for recommending IBM" and the world went with the safe, the known, the expected, the predictable.  So, people who would otherwise actually engage in "intrapreneuring" were actually (a) never hired in the first place or (b) shunted off into quality circles or (c) got tired of it all and went into business for themselves, effectively shrugging.  In other words, we have 100,000 or a million people doing odd jobs for each other and the engines of creation were never engaged.

I agree with you, its damn hard to support objectivist businesses. They're really not out there much.

 

Because objectivists are not really entrepreneurs. We're philosophers.  Why spend your time making and selling something when you can come here and argue?  Do we get paid for this?  Do the owners of RoR?  No.  So, there is that.  What I meant, though, was the reverse.  You can exchange values with people who are diametrically opposed to reason and freedom.  All you care about is that you get your money's worth. 
As to the insinuation that I provide nothing of value. Groceries can be grown, the goods you've mentioned can be produced, I personally have the skills to provide security and medical care.
I certainly did not imply that you have nothing of value to market.  I am truly taken aback there.  No problems with my fingers on the keyboard.  You misunderstand me.  My point was that the things that (objectivist) people want are already being provided by other people (who are not objectivists).  

As for security and medical care, OK, we both sell that.  Why would you work for anyone you met here?  They expect you to carry a gun and kill the enemy.  By that formula, someone is going to need medical care -- and you cannot control who.  I believe that violence is the last resort of the incompetent, so I avoid problems.  We can talk about all of that.  I like working with soldiers because they are trained to work in teams.  I like cops as people, but they are such individualists that they are hard to coordinate with -- like herding cats.  More later on that.

-----------------
My question remains, is it illegal to seek alternate means of exchange? What law would apply? Would tax evasion be the method used to discourage this sort of thing?
-----------------

Ryan, for the past five years, I ran the educational forums for our state numismatic society and twice we had presentations from H&R Block on "What the IRS Expects You to Know: Buying and Selling for the Non-Professional."  Basically, "alternative means of exchange" are not illegal, but tax evasion is.  If I trade you a rare coin for your used car, I just sold a coin and you just sold a car and we both owe income tax.  Anything else is a different discussion entirely.

Peace,
Mike M.
Michael E. Marotta


Post 13

Tuesday, December 30, 2008 - 3:00pmSanction this postReply
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The Russians have no idea what states are. In Russia they are creations of the national government. Their governors are appointed by the president. (Putin instituted that "reform.") They do not understand that our states are actually functional entities. The balkanization claim is no more that a crackpot theory theory that makes news because someone issued a press release to a gullible media on a slow news day.

Post 14

Tuesday, December 30, 2008 - 3:28pmSanction this postReply
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I would agree to your statement that violence is a last resort of incompetents. Unfortunately, the thinkers and competent people of the world are often the targets of those incompetents when they exercise their last resorts. If it comes to that, its just good sense to have some people around who know what they're doing when if things do come to violence.
You'll have to excuse me if I suggest or seem interested in things that are known to be impractical or just don't work. I'm a lot younger than most of you and I've come to many of the same conclusions you have, but from a completely opposite direction than many of you did. Still learning.
(Edited by Ryan Keith Roper on 12/30, 3:30pm)


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Post 15

Tuesday, December 30, 2008 - 5:09pmSanction this postReply
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I believe that violence is the last resort of the incompetent
I've never been sure I understood this line.  Is it that the incompetent people avoid violence until there's no possible other choice? But competent people will resort to violence sooner?  Are you criticizing pacifists for preferring appeasement or evasion?  That seems to be the literal meaning of this statement.  Since you seem to use this in contexts where you describe how you avoid violence, I always think I must be missing something.

I partially agree with the statement.  I think there are two kinds of incompetent people.  Those that treat violence as a first resort, and those that treat it as a last resort.  The former are thugs.  The latter are cowards.

I prefer the position that violence should be used to defend our rights.  It means we aren't willing to let others enslave us, rob us, and destroy our means of survival slowly, on the hope that they'll let us live.  We don't have to allow things to get to the point where our lives are so tenuous that we our forced to respond "as the last resort".  We can recognize that a violation of our rights is an attack on our lives.  And defending our lives is not an undesirable option that we desperately hope to avoid.  The undesirable part is when they initiate force against us in the first place.  Once that's done, there's no point in despising or resenting the only means of righting the wrong.

Violence as a last resort means accepting anything short of death.


Post 16

Tuesday, December 30, 2008 - 5:13pmSanction this postReply
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I can see how that statement could be interpreted in a lot of different ways. I took it to mean that in interactions between competent people, violence never enters the picture. As I reread it I do have to modify my position a bit more, as violence does have its place in the imperfect world we live in, to discourage violence directed at us or win any engagements we would be forced into.

Post 17

Tuesday, December 30, 2008 - 11:24pmSanction this postReply
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Is it just me, or do not "shrug" and "gulch" sound like the names of orcs?

Post 18

Wednesday, December 31, 2008 - 12:10amSanction this postReply
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orcs?

Post 19

Wednesday, December 31, 2008 - 12:13amSanction this postReply
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Shagrat and gorbag:




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