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Sunday, July 29, 2012 - 12:40pmSanction this postReply
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The Turing Test involves a human and an artificially intelligent machine entering into electronic (typed) conversation. The object of the test is whether or not the human can determine whether she is talking to another human, or to a machine. This thread is a place to put in a short, hypothetical dialogue meant to uncover the true identity of the Turing machine (as a machine, and not a human). Can you think of a conversation that you could steer in a manner in which it would allow you to discover the truth?

This public challenge is open to all participants. Here is an example:

******************************
Ed:
Heyyy ... buddy ... how's it going?

Turing Machine:
Oh, it's not going too well for me lately. Our family dog ran away last night and we just found out this morning that it got run over by a car.

Ed:
Oh, that's too bad. It's always bad when you lose a "family member."

Turing Machine:
But Sparky wasn't a member of the family, he was our pet.

Ed:
You've ... so ... you've never heard of referring to a pet as being part of the family?

Turing Machine:
No, that notion is ridiculous. Humans are members of the species homo sapiens and dogs are members of the ... heyyyy, wait a minute ... did you just figure out that I am a machine?

Ed:
Bingo!
******************************

:-)

Can you think of a short dialogue to post here, showing how you would have uncovered the true identity of a machine masquerading as a human?

Ed

(Edited by Ed Thompson on 7/29, 3:12pm)


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Post 1

Sunday, July 29, 2012 - 12:55pmSanction this postReply
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Ed:

The inverse: evidence not of machines acting like men, but of men acting like machines.

Machine generated, or 'machine' generated?

regards,
Fred

Post 2

Sunday, July 29, 2012 - 3:15pmSanction this postReply
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Well, thanks a lot for including such a wonderfully-written link, Fred.

I think I just threw-up in my mouth.

:-)

Ed


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Post 3

Sunday, July 29, 2012 - 6:02pmSanction this postReply
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Deanna:
So, there's this sponge who lives in a pineapple under the sea and he wears square pants every day.  His best friend is a not-very-bright starfish who watches color television in a set made of sand.  His other friend is a squirrel named Sandy who also lives under the sea, and one time they were stranded on an island (which was under the sea, of course) and Sandy built a fully functional helicopter out of nothing but palm trees.  It crashed and the whole gang was rescued by a surfer who sounded just like Johnny Depp.  The thing is, the sponge's neighbor is a cranky clarinet-playing octopus, but his name is SQUIDward!  Who names an octopus SQUIDward?!

Turing Machine:
{blink, blink}


Post 4

Sunday, July 29, 2012 - 7:06pmSanction this postReply
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Good one, Deanna!

I think you met the challenge and that you -- with just that opening statement (about SpongeBob SquarePants) -- would be able to determine whether you were talking to a machine or not.

Ed

p.s. You did me one better, of course, because you only needed one opening statement to uncover the identity of your interlocuter. Bravo.


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Post 5

Sunday, July 29, 2012 - 7:45pmSanction this postReply
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Ed:

I just want to make sure you actually read all the way to the important line at the bottom:

"The essay you have just seen is completely meaningless and was randomly generated by the Postmodernism Generator. To generate another essay, follow this link. If you liked this particular essay and would like to return to it, follow this link for a bookmarkable page."

That gibberish is completely machine generated, and indistinguishable from the slop spit out on college campuses all across America.


There was also this famous prank:

http://www.physics.nyu.edu/faculty/sokal/transgress_v2/transgress_v2_singlefile.html

Sokal published deliberate complete gibberish and had it published in a 'peer reviewed' journal, "Social Text," mainly to demonstrate that it was all gibberish.

Purposely crippled university departments all over the nation are pumping out idiots by the wagonload. They are taught to sit up and bark back complete nonsense like that, and are rewarded for doing so by their trainers. It is one way America was attacked.

Post 6

Sunday, July 29, 2012 - 8:03pmSanction this postReply
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Computer generated articles.


We are getting to the point where software is generating content on the web ... that is read by software to generate content on the web ... lather, rinse, repeat.


That's a lot of wallpaper...


Turing test? Not quite, but a step along the way...will folks reading the web even notice that the content/filler between all those ads is purely software generated content?

Things that make you go "Hmmmmmmmmmm..."

regards,
Fred





Post 7

Monday, July 30, 2012 - 4:29amSanction this postReply
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Everyone who has read The Coming Singularity raise your hand (or ping your mother program if your hand is virtual).

Post 8

Monday, July 30, 2012 - 4:39amSanction this postReply
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Thanks, Fred.

Due to having a philosophical allergy to postmodernism existentialism, I had failed to make it through to the end of the story where the disclaimer is found.

:-)

Ed


Post 9

Monday, July 30, 2012 - 8:12amSanction this postReply
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Steve:

I've read Kurzweil's books. I think there is something to his claims, but I would put him at the extremely optimistic end of the visionary scale. I think in many ways it is already breaking out, on many fronts.

But I think Kurzweil's vision is missing what all such visions of the future lack, unavoidably, and that is an ability to accurately gauge the law of unintended consequences as well as unanticipated complexity(ala Wolfram's observation regarding complex systems from simple rules; in this instance, we are launching the 'simple' rules, but cannot predict the resulting complex systems.)

The 'Kitty Hawk' analogy is illuminating, but must be modified to fit. With aviation, the track is clear from Kitty Hawk to the Moon in half a century. Across the broad fields that Kurzweil discusses, human augmentation and so on, it is going to be across many fronts in fits and starts.

So from a distance in history, this may appear as a singularity, but I think living through it close up, it is going to seem dispersed for some time, gradual in some areas and rapid in others. Just my wild assed guess.

regards,
Fred

Post 10

Monday, July 30, 2012 - 9:09amSanction this postReply
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FB: There was also this famous prank:

http://www.physics.nyu.edu/faculty/sokal/transgress_v2/transgress_v2_singlefile.html
Sokal published deliberate complete gibberish and had it published in a 'peer reviewed' journal, "Social Text," mainly to demonstrate that it was all gibberish.


I ran into this in graduate school when we had to read postmodernist criminology theory.  I read Sokal's own articles (and book) on this, and the original article and many subsequent replies, and so on.  I sent Alan Sokal a thank-you note via email and got a brief reply.  He is a physicist, of course, but also, politically, a Marxist.  It is an example of why Ayn Rand held Marxists in relatively high regard, something we too easily ignore.  Not just any "socialist" idea is Marxism, just as we all know that America is not a "capitalist" nation.  Be that as it may...


I mentioned here before that I failed an "intellectual Turing test" on religion.  Byran Caplan (EconLog, George Mason University, etc.) suggested such a test to verify his claim (via Paul Krugman, I believe) that Keynesians can make the free market case more honestly than libertarians can speak for central bank intervention.  In other words, a blind "Turing Test" would reveal the free marketers for their inablilty to actually write like Keynesians, though Keynesians could mimic libertarians well enough to fool other libertarians. 

This challenge was taken up by Yalie Leah Libresco, herself an atheist who is "unequally yoked" to a Roman Catholic.  She hosted a religious Turing test. (Read all about it here).  I signed on.  And failed.  I was outed as a faker by both the Christian judges and the Atheist panel.  I no longer call myself an atheist.  Call it a crisis of lack-of-faith... 

Anyway, such experiments are interesting when the computer is a player.  The primitive Eliza program written by Joseph Weizenbaum was at once a demonstration and a warning.   In his book, Computer Power and Human Reason, Weizenbaum is somewhat dismayed that secretaries at MIT actively used the "Doctor" version of Eliza to talk out their personal problems.  (Weizenbaum also compared hackers to gamblers portrayed in Dostoyesvky's novel: glassy-eyed, compulsive, superstitious...)  Silicon Valley by Michael A. Rogers is a so-so novel set in our time of an immediate future about an attempt at a successful Turing Test to boost a high-tech firm. 

(Edited by Michael E. Marotta on 7/30, 9:11am)


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Post 11

Monday, July 30, 2012 - 9:13amSanction this postReply
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Fred,

Very astute observations on complexity and how it is always liable to befuddle us on the details. I agree.

I felt his writing was a bit evangelical, even when I agreed with a conclusion, and I thought that it colored him optimistic - even in areas that had me worried.

I know that others were often either cheerleaders or thinking, "You've gone to far this time - no way those conclusions are justified by any research!" (Followed by turning a sharp eye to his evidence.)

But I couldn't get into either camp because I was stunned by an insight he triggered in me (which I'll get to in just a second).

I really liked his grasp of the way we can't "sense" a passage of time in a way that is akin to the pace of technology - instead we frame things in a linear fashion (and in our personal, biological time-frame) - where what we need to see is the exponential effect driving technology.

But it isn't just a matter of improvements in technology - it is to everything we do.

What I suddenly started thinking was that the very heart of human nature isn't just our rational faculty (as in reasoning true from false, as in critical examination), nor in the issue of volition - of choosing (which is also a prerequisite of reasoning), but in something that requires both of those abilities - something they serve. It is our "What if?" faculty. We imagine some future we've never seen, never experienced, and we ask our-self "What if?" (Clearly, this is simple-minded nick-name of the mechanism whereby we implement purpose.)

Here is the difference between us and all else. We have the capacity to drive our lives as opposed to passively or automatically reacting to what the world presents us.

We all have different personalities, orientations to the world, skill sets, etc. Someone might be a grumpy trouble-maker, and, if so, some part of their mind will be creating "What if's" that will help them irritate their companions. If someone is an engineer, then whatever they look at might generate a "What if this part were...?" We could be commuting to work and hit the normal slowdown at a certain point and wonder if it would be faster to take a side street for a few blocks as our normal drive pattern.

To me, this is human nature. This is our key survival (or flourishing) mechanism. This is our uniquely human approach to life - we create, we evaluate, then we choose and act.

Of course it sounds so obvious, and it must have been an idea in the minds of thousands before mine, and those better read than I are invited to point me this way or that... It just seems so fundamental that we must have reason, and we must have choice, or we couldn't cast out in front of us an imaginary future to test run as a virtual reality before doing it.

This is the foundation of risk-reduction - clearly a huge evolutionary advantage.

Look at the implications this has for education. The more we know, the less our training is tightly closeted as vertical studies, the better our future casting will be.

Look at the value it brings to a better understanding of consciousness. This is an area I'm pretty excited about and the tie between human nature (seen this way) and motivational psychology really fires me up! :-)

Post 12

Monday, July 30, 2012 - 12:14pmSanction this postReply
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Steve:

Yes, I agree. The way I put it is, what can be is limited only by what can be, but what we imagine is not limited by what is. As well, what we imagine isn't limited by what can be. (See modern politics.)

But in that imagining is how what can be comes about, constantly extended from what is.

regards,
Fred



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Post 13

Monday, July 30, 2012 - 12:22pmSanction this postReply
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Michael:

Everytime I see "Keynesian" I think "half-Keynesian."

Before Paul Krugman-esque Keynesians wow us with being free-marketers, I'd be ecstatic if they could first actually be Keyensians.

His theory has two parts, and what modernity calls 'Keynesians' are only ever advocates of the spend half.

The other half they call 'austerity;' defined as, any act of not borrowing and spending.

It is transparently a campaign to run Western liberal civilization into the ditch by design; I can't help anyone pretend otherwise.

regards,
Fred










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