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Monday, September 24, 2012 - 10:11amSanction this postReply
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You may be familiar with the social conformity experiments created by Solomon Asch — in which the vast majority of people can be induced to falsely report that the longer of two lines is in fact by far the smaller, if they are led to believe that everyone else in the room sees that line as obviously far shorter.

It used to be thought that those who went along with the group consensus (provided in this case by actors coached to play the part of fellow participants in a "test of visual perceptual ability") were lying only from their lips outward: to "go along, get along" with the crowd, while in fact they privately knew better ...
But further investigation, including MRI studies of brain function during the tests (studies which it had not been possible to do at the time the experiments were first thought up) reveal that a great many people taking this rigged "visual test" REALLY DO subconsciously alter their very perceptions: they IN FACT perceive the longer line as self-evidently the shorter, as soon as they believe that others see it that way.

Questions:

/1/ What's the best cure for that ... and, better yet, what's the best prevention? (especially if it turns out that this way of [not-]thinking begins in early childhood: the studies haven't, as far as I know, ascertained how early it begins)

/2/ What are the best ways to lead such a person to even want to be cured?

/3/ Can the condition be so pervasive that a cure is impossible? In other words, is it possible that these people, or some of them, have all their perceptions so ruled by this mind-set that no countervailing datum has any chance of making a dent — because it's all smoothly edited away by the subconscious, and changed into socially admissible information? (Imagine an "Emperor's New Clothes" scenario in which the lone protesting child could not be heard, because the subconscious of any listener had been trained to re-interpret — or even to delete — any incoming data that might dethrone the "self-evident fact" of the Emperor's silks and satins which they think they know by direct sensory evidence: though they know no such thing, because their very perceptions have been warped. They really believe they are seeing gorgeous clothing, when they are not ... How can the lone protestor show them otherwise, when words will not avail? Perhaps the social brainwashing goes so deep that his words "But the Emperor has no clothes!" are — in the listener's brain — smoothly replaced by some acceptable sentiment: or by nonsensical gibbering, so that the listeners judge him insane and in any case never hear his message?

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Monday, September 24, 2012 - 10:47amSanction this postReply
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Kate,

Branden and Rand named this syndrome "Social Metaphysics." It isn't physiological so there is no medical intervention that would help. The only intervention is to use techniques in the area of talk therapy that would aid the person in making the change, and only they can do that - effect a change inside of their own mind.

As to prevention, this is a mental habit formed very early in life and that is when a perceptive parent would work with the child, helping them be aware of what they are doing, and helping them see that there is no danger in having independent judgements. The parent could also teach the child behaviors that increase self-esteem which is the best 'vaccine' against peer-pressure/social-metaphysics.

For an adult, there will be a fair amount of emotional discomfort associated with attempting to use the judgment of others - mostly anxiety and fear, but there can also be depression, or shame which underly a base condition of low self-esteem that goes with the social metaphysics. If a person has a lot of negative emotions a good therapist would also look for other self-defeating practices - like substance abuse.

All of that, and consequences of bad judgments are the things that bring a person into therapy. They have to come in wanting a change. To make the kind of changes that are involved is very frightening and the person has to be very motivated. It has to be their own motivation and no one can talk them into it if they don't really want it. Even when they really, really want to get free of the anxiety, or shame, or depression, or fear, they will want the therapist to find a way to take those away but without them having to change anything.

"Cure" is not a good word since it implies a state that is achieved by following actions that any therapist could provide - just as a cure from a bacterial infection can be had by any doctor who proscribes the right antibiotic. And it isn't like that.

In your question number /3/ the wording implies that someone can be convinced with the right arguments. Not a chance. The only way, given today's talk-therapy technology, that anyone makes a significant improvement in this area is when they choose to do so because they associate the pain in their life with not changing and they are able to find just enough hope for positive change to open themselves to making that change. And it takes time.

The last part of your question you went into a kind theoretical exposition that mixed up delusional or hallucinatory symptoms with social metaphysics. They aren't related as syndromes even though it seems like they might differ only in degree.

If you have someone in mind and are hoping to effect change by finding the right words, I'd say your chances are very close to zero. And they go down each time you try and fail because the person closes off that part of the mind that would need to be open to accept change.

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Monday, September 24, 2012 - 11:13amSanction this postReply
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Ed Thompson (I believe) posted here before about how ideas cause a plastic formation of neural pathways in the brain. This basic experiment and the MRI follow-ups do raise some deep questions about the extent to which we can convince another individual by rational argument. However, it does suggest that when "enough" people claim that something is true everyone else will change their perceptions and go along.

The new study tried to find an answer by using functional M.R.I. scanners that can peer into the working brain, a technology not available to Dr. Asch.

The researchers found that social conformity showed up in the brain as activity in regions that are entirely devoted to perception. But independence of judgment -- standing up for one's beliefs -- showed up as activity in brain areas involved in emotion, the study found, suggesting that there is a cost for going against the group.

''We like to think that seeing is believing,'' said Dr. Gregory Berns, a psychiatrist and neuroscientist at Emory University in Atlanta who led the study.

But the study's findings, he said, show that seeing is believing what the group tells you to believe.

The research was published June 22 in the online edition of Biological Psychiatry.
New York Times, June 28, 2005 here


PDF of "Neurobiology of Social Conformity and Independence" by Berns, et al., from Emory University here.

For more reading enter AMYGDALA CONFORMITY in your search engine. People with larger amygdalas - more connections, better development - tend to have more social interactions of a higher quality.

(Edited by Michael E. Marotta on 9/24, 11:42am)


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Monday, September 24, 2012 - 12:20pmSanction this postReply
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The example reminds me of a STAR TREK: NEXT GENERATION episode where Picard is captured and tortured, and offered an out, if he would only see 5 lights, instead of four...he resists for a long time, at the end, he is rescued before his final decision, but he later reveals that, for a moment, he did believe that he saw five lights...

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Monday, September 24, 2012 - 2:08pmSanction this postReply
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Michael,

There are some basic philosophical problems with those studies. Whether intentional or not, they presume a reductionism where all mental life, including choices, are reducible to a specific physical/chemical activity and that the relation is such that they can reverse the chain of events to say that neuroactivity X means mental activity Y. They don't mention choice - which assumes a hard determinism. For the reductionist in psychology the holy grail is evidence that they have established that this or that specific activity IS a particular mental activity. This study makes that kind of claim where they state, "These findings provide the first biological evidence for the involvement of perceptual and emotional processes during social conformity. " Translated: We have specific biological evidence of specific mental conclusions. They want to show that instead of a real choice, there is a pleasure/pain mechanism that weighs in on the side of compromise. I assume you read the Introduction section of the paper where the gushed on about the value of political compromise.

Let me give you an example. Say there are two people who are being scanned in an MRI chamber while resisting the opinions of a group. One of them is comfortable doing so because he has grown up making his own judgments. The other is under a rather mixed motivation - he believes that the researchers are hoping he will exhibit independence, yet his normal mode is to go along with the group. He chooses to please the researchers. Both individuals will answer questions as if they were independent but they will exhibit very different patterns of emotion versus cognition. Without recognition of choice and the fact that their crude physiological measurements cannot be expanded as explanations of choice or of mental content, the researchers remain blind to what is really happening and jump to false conclusions. I could make up many more examples that are based upon different beliefs, values, and choices such that it would confound the MRI measurements when interpreted the way they are.

The other assumption that needs to be rejected is that they are measuring an immutible aspect of human nature as opposed to the average emotional issues of their sample within that subculture. You said, "...it does suggest that when 'enough' people claim that something is true everyone else will change their perceptions and go along." Some subcultures exhibit greater degrees of conformity than others. That doesn't say anything about what, given the capacity proscribed by human nature, is the healthiest approach.

This study appears to arise from Social Psychology - a theory formed back in the fifties in opposition to Psychoanalytic theory on one hand, and Behaviorism on the other. Those two were in some ways polar opposites but they both did claim to be explaining the aspects of human nature, in univeral terms, that should be psychology. The Social Psychologists like the empirical nature of behaviorism, but objected that it was restricted to behaviors and never addressed mental phenomena. They rejected the instinctual basis of deep psychology as promoted by Freudians, and wanted something that addressed the individual and society as opposed to the individual and parents. They wanted a psychology that was more like sociology. They wanted it so cover mental phenomena yet still have the scientific patina of empirical studies.

Because psychology, like medicine, must distinguish between healthy and unhealthy modes or states, it must form a standard by which to differentiate... and that standard must arise from human nature - that must be the foundation of a psychology. Freud had a foundation like this, however bad much of it was. The behaviorists, on the other hand, weren't explicit in this area and were looking for the ways to condition behavior, but didn't say much about how they would choose the goals to condition humans to follow. Psychoanalitic theory had a standard that related to psychic energy balances (e.g., repressed material created a psychic imbalance which would become expressed through symptoms, including defensive activity, and that talk therapy could release). Social psychology appears to be focused on being a bridge between psychology and sociology but has no foundation in human nature, no standard of mental health, is relative to the culture, and is often used to make statements about human nature - and it doesn't have the foundation needed to do that.

Post 5

Tuesday, September 25, 2012 - 11:55amSanction this postReply
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I certainly believe the phenomena is both possible and true, and we can all(and have, several times here in the past)personally verified that with the checkerboard grey-scale experimental image from MIT: We are capable of actively altering our wetbit perception engines to match what we believe we see.

The checkerboard experiment is minus the social context-- an individual can readily do this to himself without any social context in that instance. But I don't doubt for an instant that the same process can occur in that or other situations.

When we 'value' pattern recognition over grey-scale, we absolutely see those squares as different colored(and are actually upset by claims that they are the same color.)

And yet, the encouraging part of that experiment is, we can also train our perception wetbits(in that instance)to see the squares as they are, which is, precisely the same grey-scale 'value.'

Value got used twice above; what we 'value', I believe, is tunable by us, literally, as weightings in higher order neural net like constructs. Those 'weightings', IMO, are literally the biophysical instantiation of what we 'value.' That is the how, I believe, of how we alter our perception wetbits to see what we believe we see.

Kate asks the much harder question. Indeed, how do we do that? But there is some encouragement in the simpler checkerboard experiment; we can train ourselves to see reality as it is, which is, block A and block B as the same color/grey-scale. We can do that...for a known image.

What is daunting is her broader question; how do we train ourselves to see such images correctly the -first- time we see them, because every one of us sees a dark square and a light square the first time we see that image; all of us.

regards,
Fred


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Tuesday, September 25, 2012 - 8:29pmSanction this postReply
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As a continuation of the length of the line perception, I think it would be valuable if the researchers were to take the same (homogenized) subject and then introduce new actors who would proceed to try to indoctrinate the dupee to believe in the correct interpretation. Would the subject be reconverted or still maintain his erroneous opinion?

Sam


Post 7

Wednesday, September 26, 2012 - 7:26pmSanction this postReply
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Actually, this happens all the time and I am not happy about it.

In psychology and sociology, the human factors ethics oversight committees approve all kinds of tests and then after the test they tell you what was really being tested, and that no harm was intended, like SNL's Jon Lovitz as Master Thespian: "Ha-ha! Acting!!"


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Friday, September 28, 2012 - 5:41amSanction this postReply
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Where does valuing 'conformity' so highly, as to overcome reality, come from?

Force? (The literal externally applied pain/embarrassement one might experiences when not conforming/self validating the choices of the local mob?)

Atavistic herd mentality? It's the zebra that stands out in the herd that the lion sees; my survival depends on blending in and being indistinguishable from the herd.

Symmetric self-validation? "I'll punch your validation if you punch mine."

An overwhelming reliance on strength in others; I'm too weak to face this universe on my own, so my -only- ability to survive depends on my ability to weave myself into the local herd, and that becomes my overwhelming survival instinct, that which drives all of my neural-net like high order value seeking wetbits.

It's depressing to ponder, that's enough, but there's got to be more.

regards,
Fred

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Friday, September 28, 2012 - 6:57amSanction this postReply
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Fred,
You've just described the playground of any junior high school in the country.  It's a child mentality, an analogy you often make here at RoR.  Does there need to be more when we're talking about that stage of mental and emotional development? 


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Saturday, September 29, 2012 - 5:56amSanction this postReply
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Deanna:

You nailed it. Jr. Highs are the forges out of which pour the desperate to conform. It takes a strong spine to not blow in that wind, and ours are still largely still forming when we are kids.

That is a great observation about Jr. Highs. That herd mentality just progresses from those incubators and eventually takes over society, a continuously running assembly line of conformity uber alles.

We need to teach our kids early to survive that as themselves. Not all conformity is bad, by far; it's a good thing when we reach a consensus about things like murder and rape and which side of the road to drive on. (In fact much conformity is of this beneficial kind.) But blind conformity-- conformity without reason, conformity as a primary value -- is just a recipe to lose yourself.

Literally.


So, there is the biggest challenge, not just in teaching our kids but in ourselves: where do we get the wisdom to choose, good conformity from bad conformity?

My older sister was a Jr. High English teacher for 30 years; it was kind of her theme. I married a Jr. High English teacher. It's where the mob is born from cliques. Most of us grow up and get on with our lives. The rest just carry that clique mentality straight into politics.

regards,
Fred

PS: My older sister, in her first year of teaching, saved me in Jr. High. When I was 14, she threw her well-worn copy of Atlas Shrugged at me and said, simply, 'Read it.' It was 1969.
(Edited by Fred Bartlett on 9/29, 6:01am)


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Saturday, September 29, 2012 - 11:23amSanction this postReply
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[I had to edit this because I mistakenly left Steve out (the first planter of fruitful seed here).]

Here's a relevant quote from Peikoff's book The DIM Hypothesis (p 138-142). It ties-in the problem as outlined by Kate, as well as the correct 'seedbed' for 'planting' a solution -- a seedbed 'tilled' first by Steve, then Deanna, and then approved of by Fred:
The Progressive child does not, however, enjoy the same independence in relation to other children. Self-expression, though still important, is transcended by a more important goal: adaptation to one's peers. ...

The purpose of using [group] assignments is to let the student absorb by experience the lesson that, even when using his own mind, he cannot function successfully without melding into a body of other people.

... the child's peers and teachers alike, for Dewey, are merely a collection of uncertain actors deprived of contact with an independent reality, and thus left with no option but to make decisions together, by consensus. ...

Dewey goes further; communicating knowledge to a student, he holds, may be not only unimportant, but downright harmful. "The mere absorbing of facts and truths is so exclusively individual an affair," he writes, "that it tends very naturally to pass into selfishness. There is no obvious social motive for the acquirement of learning, there is no clear social gain in success thereat."

Ed

p.s. I'm only 180 pages into this book, but I already recommend it.

(Edited by Ed Thompson on 9/29, 10:36pm)


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