About
Content
Store
Forum

Rebirth of Reason
War
People
Archives
Objectivism

Post to this threadMark all messages in this thread as readMark all messages in this thread as unreadBack one pagePage 0Page 1


Post 20

Wednesday, November 13, 2013 - 8:56pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Well worded, Dean.

I'm also in 80+% agreement with what you said.

Ed


Post 21

Thursday, November 14, 2013 - 6:01amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Ed:

I hope I'm wrong. I hope you are right.

The 'employer half of FICA' has been around since the 30's as an idea. That was 80 years ago. 4 generations have been inured to the idea that their employer is really paying half of their FICA/MEDI tax, with no realized sense at all that it is -their earnings- that are being taxed, 100%. Employers know about the 941, and know exactly what their fully burdened cost of labor is when they offer wages. On payday, they write out a check for the gross, hand it to their office manager, and instruct them to print whatever the government insists on their employees paystubs and deal out the taxes on those earnings as the government insists.

The great Holy Average stares at their pay stub and dutifully observes, "Hey, look, my employer is paying half of my FICA/MEDI" ... and everyone is happy.

And the great Holy Average votes.

For the exact same reason as above, the great holy Average isn't about to figure out that Obamacare is a massive phased tax increase on earnings as benefits-- one that they are largely begging for. One that they are told was to provide health insurance to the uninsured...even though in plain site, there is a minimum income level posted for eligibility for Obamacare-- pushing the very people we've been told were supposed to benefit from Obamacare onto a MEDICAID program that isn't being expanded. This is done in plain site.

In the fringe byways, maybe folks are talking about this. Meanwhile, like Kurzweil's observation, what can happen will happen.


Post 22

Thursday, November 14, 2013 - 6:10amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Look at the numbers.

50,000? 30,000? 100,000? signed up for Obamacare.

440,000 signed up for MEDICAID.

The people who needed HI rushed in to find out they weren't eligible for Obamacare...and were pushed onto an already stressed MEDICAID program that largely isn't being expanded.

Can you imagine what health care is going to be like at the -already were dwindling fast chokepoints- that accept MEDICAID patients?

The website is the least of the current failure. The only remaining question is, is this catastrophe due to incompetence or malevolence? As well, given the filter of our media, will those who vote have a prayer of having enough information to actually decide?

regards,
Fred

Post 23

Saturday, November 16, 2013 - 7:36amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Fred,
The 'employer half of FICA' has been around since the 30's as an idea. That was 80 years ago. 4 generations have been inured to the idea that their employer is really paying half of their FICA/MEDI tax, with no realized sense at all that it is -their earnings- that are being taxed, 100%.
This is changing. People are figuring out the Austrian theory of economics. Ron Paul named it explicitly in news interviews. Pretty soon, a critical mass of people will realize that costs are always 'shared' (i.e., that redistribution is not just morally wrong, but also contrary-to-stated-purpose). You can fool some of the people some of the time, but you cannot fool enough of the people -- a threshold of 75% is required -- all of the time. If 25% of the people get convinced that you don't respond to reason or to feedback, then your time in power will be limited.

Ed


Post 24

Saturday, November 16, 2013 - 8:42amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Pretty soon, a critical mass of people will realize that costs are always 'shared' (i.e., that redistribution is not just morally wrong, but also contrary-to-stated-purpose). You can fool some of the people some of the time, but you cannot fool enough of the people -- a threshold of 75% is required -- all of the time.
Ed, I wish I had your confidence that things were trending in that direction, but the fact is that we have been, and continue to be, a society that is moving to the left.

A number of cities around the country are planning on using eminent domain to take the mortgage on homes under water as a way to give relief to the homeowners. Seattle just elected a woman to city council who ran, explicitly, as a socialist. Those are just two of the news items I noticed today.

The universities and colleges continue to turn out more graduates who have been taught progressive/collective viewpoints than libertarian/Austrian/Individualist viewpoints. I do believe that the better ideas will eventually win out, but "eventually" will be a very long time arriving given the momentum of the active left in politics, their near monopoly in academia, and their predominance in mass media.

Post 25

Saturday, November 16, 2013 - 9:37amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Ed,
Game Theory empirically tests the limits of variation in repeated human interactions. Perhaps the simplest example is the Laffer Curve, where there is no government revenue at a 0% tax rate, and there is also (eventually) no government revenue at a 100% tax rate.
I suspect that a fair amount of game theory is actually mistaken assertions of what is or isn't part of human nature. And, that it would be more accurately understood as projections (or polls, or statistical expressions) of predominant beliefs in the particular culture. I'm not clear on what the underlying principle of game theory is.

As I understand the Laffer Curve, it predicts that there must be some point where increasing the annual tax rate will actually decrease the annual revenues. After all, if you grant that there will be some tax revenues coming in at low tax rates, and that there will be none with a zero tax rate, and also no revenues (eventually) at 100% tax rate, then you have created a curve but not said where on that curve the apex (maximum revenues) is. Your only implied assumption about the human actions is that eventually no one will be willing to work for money, when it is all taken away (the 100% tax rate), and that there will be some kind of distribution such that some kind of curve will be graphed as the relation of tax rates to revenues is plotted on a chart .

That point on the graph where any increase in the tax rate will result in lower total revenues and any decrease in the tax rate will be bring higher (or the same) tax revenues, that apex on the chart, will of course vary to some degree, for different cultures, different economic states, different kinds of taxes, and different beliefs held in the society relative to taxes. I'm not sure how any of this is "game theory."

Is "game theory" an attempt to ascertain or measure a fact or principle of human nature? Or does it use an established assumption regarding human nature to predict a behavior or the statistical population distribution of a behavior?

Is "game theory" relying on a distribution of certain beliefs in the population? And if so, does it say anything about volition, and the fact that beliefs change?

Is "game theory" implying that certain beliefs are endemic in humans in genetically determined ratio - not unlike eye color where there are certain ratios of blue eyes to brown eyes? Or that we will act in certain ways, regardless of beliefs or genes?

There is a mathematical model for predicting the optimum number of "faithful" males to philandering males - among birds. Faithful males, as part of a two-parent system, increase the portion of hatchlings that survive to reproduce. Philandering males produce far more eggs overall, but aren't there making efforts to feed and protect the eggs and hatchlings so that fewer of the eggs make it to the stage of being successful reproducing birds themselves. Which is the better strategy for overall numbers? It turns out that some ratio of faithful males to philandering males will yield the most reproducing offspring. This mathematical model uses values from the observed success rates in a given environment (which varies from geographical area to area (varying in predators, food, etc.) and from species to species) and it operates on the assumption that the faithful/philandering behaviors are genetically transmitted. It is saying that the genes for philandering will find expression in the population at X percent.

You can see how this would NOT be a model that could be used for humans UNLESS you discard the notion of volition, and pickup the view of genetically encoded beliefs.

Post 26

Saturday, November 16, 2013 - 9:49amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Steve,

It's true that, in this country, we are experiencing The Rise of the Radical Hippie Socialists* -- a truly terrible thing. But according to Heritage, there are now 5 free countries in the world:

Hong Kong, 89.3
Singapore, 88.0
Australia, 82.6
New Zealand, 81.4
Switzerland, 81.0

And, of the countries that are not yet free, many of them are becoming more free over time:

Estonia, +2.1
Finlan, +1.7
Sweden, +1.2
Germany, +1.8
Georgia, +2.8
Iceland, +1.2
Austria, +1.5
UAE, +1.8
Czech Republic, +1.0
Botswana, +1.0
Norway, +1.7
The Bahamas, +2.1
Columbia, +1.6
Slovakia, +1.7
Mexico, +1.7
Jamaica, +1.7
Latvia, +1.3
Poland, +1.8
Sri Lanka, +2.4
Italy, +1.8
Gabon, +1.4
Benin, +1.9
Moldova, +1.1
Seychelles, +1.9
Guyana, +2.5
Guinea-Bissau, +1.0
Lesotho, +1.3
Comoros, +1.8
Zimbabwe, +2.3

That's 29 countries (well over 10% of the total) which are at least 1% more free this year than they were last year. Along with these successes, I left out countries where freedom improved, but did not improve by at least 1%. All said, more than a third (and up to one half!) of all countries are getting more free, as time goes by.

Ed

*Hannity says we're witnessing the Rise of Radical Islam, but we just don't (all) know it yet.


Post 27

Saturday, November 16, 2013 - 9:52amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Steve,

Re: post 25, you make good points. I'll have "good" answers soon ...

Ed


Post 28

Saturday, November 16, 2013 - 3:38pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Ed, I mostly agree with the Heritage Foundation study, but I still think that we are one of the countries going the wrong way in more substantial and fundamental terms than their study indicates, and will continue to go the wrong way for quite a while - because of the universities and colleges and the generations they have churned out - there are very active forces moving us to the left and they are increasing each year at this time.

But human beings are capable of waking up and seeing that freedom is a better choice... usually in the face of a crisis (although we have to remember that they could choose to go the other way in a crisis).

Did you notice that over 30 countries in that list are becoming less free with time (by more than 1 point in the last year)? Just saying.



(Edited by Steve Wolfer on 11/16, 3:41pm)


Post 29

Saturday, November 16, 2013 - 4:35pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Ed, I think I made a post some time back where I pointed out that since Islam first began, there have not been that many years where a Caliphate did NOT exist. The different sects have nearly always fought with each other, but they have also united again and again to form a powerful, multi-national, theocracies joined together as one empire - a Caliphate.

Take a look at the history:
(From Wikipedia)
1.1 Rashidun, 632–661 AD.
1.2 Umayyads, 7th–8th centuries
1.2.1 The Caliphates in Hispania
- The Caliphate of Córdoba from 929 to 1031
1.3 Abbasids, 8th–13th centuries
1.4 Fatimids, 10th–12th centuries
1.5 Ayyubid rule
1.6 Mamluk rule, 13th–16th centuries
1.7 Ottomans, 16th–20th century
1.8 Sokoto, 19th century
1.9 Ahmadiyya Caliphate, 1908-Present
1.10 Khilafat Movement, 1920
1.11 End of the last Caliphate, 1924

Saudi Arabia and Pakistan have come into existence since 1924, along with the overthrow of the Shah in Iran.

If the "Arab Spring" continues we may be back on track to have most of the Muslims around the world listening to the voice of one man - the Caliph - on all matters of religion and politics.

Many Islamic scholars believe that the Caliphate is required by Islam, and that it is forbidden that a Muslim have more than one leader. Al Qaeda has, as a clearly stated, main goal the establishment of a Caliphate.

I think Hannity is right - Islam's political manifestation is returning.


Post 30

Saturday, November 16, 2013 - 5:29pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Dean, I have a problem.
DMG: "But societies have collapsed due to coin currency debasement and decentralized bank fiat debasement and central bank fiat debasement... you'd think that people would have learned by now."

Can you name one?

I would say that the two events were in parallel, if at all.
Ancient Rome is the classic case. And I can point to the decentralized fiat of the Wildcat Era which did NOT result in the collapse of society -- unless you consider that to have been the Civil War... but wildcat banking is never cited as a cause of the Civil War. Maybe it should be, but that would be an independent thesis. And contrariwise, I point to the entire run of the Middle Ages when debasement of the myriad coinages was frequent, common, expected, normal and accounted for, for about 1000 years, a pretty long run.

I raise the admittedly perhaps minor point because in general, I am in accordance with your perspectives on digital currencies. (I am also concordant on babies.)


Post 31

Saturday, November 16, 2013 - 7:11pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Steve,
I suspect that a fair amount of game theory is actually mistaken assertions of what is or isn't part of human nature.
That's probably true, but it isn't special. All social sciences (e.g., psychology, sociology, etc.) are guilty of this. There are 2 important issues:

1) Is Game Theory/Decision Theory/Social Choice Theory especially guilty?
2) Are the mistakes great enough to disqualify the empirical evidence?

I don't think that (1) can be affirmed, and as for (2) it's good to mentally separate the empirical evidence from the philosophic explanation of the empirical evidence. Scientists who tell you that they don't have a worldview (a philosophy) but instead are just reporting about their findings are actually part of the problem -- though they picture themselves as being part of the solution. There is the science, and there is the understanding of the science. You can be really good at one of them, without being really good at the other. Let's imagine comical discussion regarding science informed by philosophy:

Larry: I think that matter is composed of tiny, individual atoms.

Curly: Why?

Larry: Because of my political philosophy, libertarianism, where the unit of value is the individual, and society is always to be viewed as merely a geographic collection of individual agents who should be free to experiment with their own lives and make their own personal choices about matters ranging from petty things like fashion up to important things like health care insurance.

Moe: That's stupid, your worldview doesn't tell you what reality is like -- whether it is made of discrete atoms or not -- you have to look at the science first. You have to let the science speak for itself on the matter.

Curly: Moe is right, Larry. It's not that philosophy doesn't matter, you could never understand/communicate scientific findings without philosophy -- and scientists who brag that they are free from such a requirement are actually just wrongheaded blowhards -- it's just that all empirical evidence matters, and all empirical evidence can be retroactively integrated into a coherent and reality-correspondent worldview.

Larry: Does this mean that even the sometimes-shoddy research of scientists, who don't understand the implications of what they are doing, does this mean that even that crappy research has value?

Curly: Yes. Let's say that you prematurely arrived at the conclusion, based on nothing other than your political philosophy of libertarianism, that you prematurely thought that matter was made of atoms -- and you were devising some experiments to test or verify that that is, indeed, the case.

Larry: Well, okay.

Curly: Now, let's say that I'm also interested in the matter and want to look over your research. Considering how you arrived at your conclusion prematurely, is that a fool's bargain for me (would looking over your research necessarily lead me astray from reality)?

Larry: Oh, I get it! So, it's like there are 2 things: (1) the empirical evidence and (2) the philosophic understanding of what that empirical evidence means.

Curly: Right. And your personal philosophy or psychology as a researcher does not disqualify whatever empirical evidence you may find by performing standardized, repeatable tests.

Larry: Cool.





Steve, you also said:
I'm not clear on what the underlying principle of game theory is.
It's that the decisions -- and the deliberations behind those decisions -- which are made in social situations, are something which you can study and even come to understand (i.e., that there is a science, however fuzzy and immature, about decision-making in social situations).

That point on the graph where any increase in the tax rate will result in lower total revenues and any decrease in the tax rate will be bring higher (or the same) tax revenues, that apex on the chart, will of course vary to some degree, for different cultures, different economic states, different kinds of taxes, and different beliefs held in the society relative to taxes. I'm not sure how any of this is "game theory."
Think of paying taxes as actually being a matter of making a decision to contribute to a common pool of resources, upon which individuals either routinely or sporadically draw. Looked at as a decision, the level of socially-acceptable taxation can then be empirically studied. Different individuals -- having certain personal projects, and personal plans for the future, and financial ups and downs, and whatever -- will make different decisions as to how much taxation they would find acceptable and/or tolerable, but there will be a mean level of taxation, and there will be upper and lower bounds. From watching people play games, it can be surmised that most people would be willing to pay a total tax rate (local + state + federal + sales + corporate + property + estate + etc.) of about 10-20%.

You can discover this by looking at Public Goods Games (which examine the issue directly), or by looking at small (9-person) groups in a large (> 100 people) network, as in the following study:

Social Experiments in the Mesoscale: Humans Playing a Spatial Prisoner's Dilemma

... found that people learn about the behavior of others, and that they learn that there are some people in the world who will cheat or who will try to free-ride on the efforts/contributions of others. Crucially, they discovered that, after finding out that the other people are not all a bunch of immaculate angels, people adjust their willingness to contribute/invest/propose from an initially high and hopeful level ... down to about 20%.

Now, you can argue that the people in the study are Spanish, and that Spanish people are either more altruist-collectivist-statist than Americans, or that altruism-collectivism-statism is "good" for Spanish people -- e.g., Spaniards will and/or should pay a total tax rate of 20% -- but that is another debate. Contrary to intuition, it actually doesn't detract from the findings. All empirical evidence matters, it just needs to be properly understood. All nationalities, denominations, cultures, gangs, cliques, individuals, etc. should be studied. It is the job of the scientists to do the science. It is our job to understand the science. Optimally, the scientists themselves will understand their own research, because then they can tailor and tweak the studies to make the studies themselves produce more ready-made packages of objective data which are already ripened to correspond to reality.

Is "game theory" an attempt to ascertain or measure a fact or principle of human nature? Or does it use an established assumption regarding human nature to predict a behavior or the statistical population distribution of a behavior?
Interested parties may attempt either one or the other or both, but that doesn't detract from the fact that all empirical evidence matters. There is the science and there are the scientists. It is often the case that the scientists are wrong but, barring explicit dishonesty, it is never the case that the "science" is wrong -- i.e., that facts found weren't facts (or weren't found).

Is "game theory" relying on a distribution of certain beliefs in the population? And if so, does it say anything about volition, and the fact that beliefs change?
Yes and yes. In the linked study above, the learning process was evident as people reduced their willingness to make cooperative offers regarding informal contracts.

Is "game theory" implying that certain beliefs are endemic in humans in genetically determined ratio - not unlike eye color where there are certain ratios of blue eyes to brown eyes? Or that we will act in certain ways, regardless of beliefs or genes?
Interested parties may attempt to interpret the empirical evidence as being proof that humans are mindless automatons whose whole lives were preordained by a power beyond their control and who are woefully stuck playing the part of a string puppet in a hallucinogenic, global tragedy -- but that doesn't detract from the empirical evidence. The main point is that the science doesn't take these positions, people do. People who interpret science from the perspective of a wrong worldview will often make grand claims, either to cover up for a personal deficiency or to mask a personal fear.

If I hate responsibility, I may try to interpret scientific findings as being proof that humans have absolutely no responsibility to themselves or to others -- but that is a problem with me, not with the empirical evidence.

There is a mathematical model for predicting the optimum number of "faithful" males to philandering males - among birds. ... You can see how this would NOT be a model that could be used for humans UNLESS you discard the notion of volition, and pickup the view of genetically encoded beliefs.
As an aside, some evolutionary biologists may want to believe that philandering males provide a service to society -- in order to justify having cheated on their wives. Even so, I get your point. With animals, it is much easier to ascribe governing factors of behavior as being evidence of employment of the "instruction manual" encoded in genetic material -- but you can't do that with humans! That's because we have culture (an example of volition) and, for humans, culture is more important than heredity. You can take the person with the "healthiest genes" and place him in a culture that makes him unhealthy or dead. Genes cannot save you from culture. One's culture is more important than one's ancestry.

Ed

p.s., We currently have a culture of corruption and entitlement, but not completely so -- we are not completely corrupt, and we do not have a complete sense of 'participation-trophy' entitlement. It's just that powerful figures from the baby-boomer generation -- particularly the young-adult flower-children from the 1960s (rich people who are in their early-to-mid-60s today) are currently pushing for that sort of a thing. It's an across-the-board oligarchy. They are everywhere (sports, politics, universities, etc.), making decisions for everyone -- but that effort cannot last. Caveat: I'm not saying that everyone who is 60-65 years old right now is wrong about how society should be formed, I'm just saying that if someone is between the ages of 60 and 65 AND they went to Woodstock AND they like "Cat Stevens" THEN they are wrong about how society should be formed. At the very least, they should be restricted from obtaining political power.

:-)

(Edited by Ed Thompson on 11/16, 7:40pm)


Post 32

Saturday, November 16, 2013 - 8:02pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Ed,

Thanks for the detailed answers. I'm still going to look at most "game theory" with a jaundiced eye - guilty till proven innocent, for me.

I'm left with the understanding that game theory is closer to a poll than anything else. Just a more complex, and somewhat dynamic poll (for example, there could be a series of interactions, each requiring separate decisions, and each decision affected by the previous decision and/or what others decided).

To me, game theory is a distraction from grasping those principles that will tell us what SHOULD be, rather than what our current population would decide.
----------------
Think of paying taxes as actually being a matter of making a decision to contribute to a common pool of resources, upon which individuals either routinely or sporadically draw.
My understanding is that the decision in question is about how much am I willing to work and/or invest relative to what I'm allowed to keep. I think if you attempt to introduce the consideration of routinely or sporadically drawing from a common pool you have another factor at play that wasn't part of what Art Laffer was projecting.
----------------

The biologists doing the bird study started by asking which model - the faithful male or the philandering male would be the most successful (assuming that one would win out over the other over time). And they were surprised to discover that for that species, at that time and place, the species did better with a certain mixture. They weren't making any value judgments on philandering - at least not for the birds. It was an important statement on the complexities of looking at genes across an entire species. The genes can only express their effect via their own individual phenotype, yet there is some kind of interactions at work, else faithful or philandering, one or the other, would be better make the other extinct in time.

Post 33

Saturday, November 16, 2013 - 10:44pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Steve,

Game theory works like this: given a game with certain decisions that particular players can decide, and particular reward distribution given each possible decision combination... Given that every player wants to and is capable of playing the best strategy possible to maximize their gains and minimize their losses, what decisions should a particular player make?

The answers are different depending on whether a game is played anonymously and whether the game is played repeatedly, those would be different games.

Its not a question of whether game theory is right, game theory is right given an optimal solution is proven by deduction... the question is whether a particular game represents some actual situation that humans face in their lives.

======

MEM: I was thinking Rome, Germany, and US for coin debasement, centralized fiat debasement, and distributed bank defaults. Except yea, I think you are right, the distributed bank default in the US didn't result in society collapse. And then furthermore, people don't really recognize in the first place that inflation/bank defaults are a big cause of economic slowdowns. And maybe I shouldn't have said collapse, because that is a strong word on the scale of economic slowdown proportions. And I'm guessing that all of these situations had a lot of other causes going on than just currency debasement.

Post 34

Sunday, November 17, 2013 - 11:30amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Dean,
Game theory works like this...[and you described]
Okay, but that is a process, a description of how to do it, or what is done. And my question is more about what is it? And, why do it?
---------
Given that every player wants to and is capable of playing the best strategy possible to maximize their gains and minimize their losses, what decisions should a particular player make?
One of my objections is the assumption of what is a gain and what is a loss - these are value issues and arise out a philosophical/cultural/psychological viewpoint. I could understand if it were a training, or teaching tool to help make a better decision, but it seems to claim to be much more than that. I have seen examples used in philosophy, economics, politics, etc. And often there isn't much clarity about what was obtained through the exercise.
----------

Dean, Ed,

I went to the Wikipedia page on Prisoner's Dilemma to see if I understand game theory, at least that game, better. From Wikipedia:
The prisoner's dilemma (or prisoners' dilemma) is a canonical example of a game analyzed in game theory that shows why two individuals might not cooperate, even if it appears that it is in their best interests to do so.
I hate how fuzzy much of the social sciences are. "...it is a game... analyzed in game theory..." Okay, but I don't think we would put it in the same category as poker, touch football, or Monopoly - all "games" - so I'll assume it is a game of the kind that belongs to 'Game Theory' which doesn't carry any explanitory value. And when they say "cooperate" are they talking about one prisoner cooperating with the other prisoner, or cooperating with the authorities? Fuzzy. And it appears that the game is intended to demonstrate something that should be the subject of a psychology, or moral philosophy class. That is it deals with values and presumably the psychology under those values. Why two individuals would not do something even if it is in their best interest to do so, is a strange statement as well. If it is in their best self-interest then maybe they don't know that it is. Or maybe they are under a belief system that puts other things above their self-interest. Shouldn't we be looking at those questions?

Later in the Wikipedia article, it says, In traditional game theory, some very restrictive assumptions on prisoner behavior are made. It is assumed that both understand the nature of the game, and that despite being members of the same gang, they have no loyalty to each other and will have no opportunity for retribution or reward outside the game. Most importantly, a very narrow interpretation of "rationality" is applied in defining the decision-making strategies of the prisoners. So they stack the deck. Decisions come from emotions which are born of internalized values, or decisions come from reasoning based upon chosen values. But they have taken away entire realms of values that would normally apply. With no loyalty and no fear, actually, nothing but what they call a "rational" examination of the rewards and punishments that are given, then everyone should choose the least punishment. But it is really a guessing game as to what the other prisoner will do. Since this variable isn't dealt with, to me the game is only measuring the estimation of the probability the other person will betray versus stay silent. How can anyone answer that intelligently? You have no evidence since the other prisoner isn't described such that you can make an intelligent guess. The rational decision would be to betray since there is a 50% chance of being set free, versus a 50% chance of serving two years. Being silent means a 50% chance of 1 year, versus a 50% chance of 3 years.

From Wikipedia:
In reality, humans display a systematic bias towards cooperative behavior in this and similar games, much more so than predicted by simple models of "rational" self-interested action.
But what is done with that discrepancy? What hypothesis is born of this? Why are they putting "rational" in quote marks? Do they look for differences in results from different populations to see if it is a cultural bias, or a philosophical bias? Not that I read in that article. I get the sense that they want these results, taken from the stacked deck, to illustrate something rather than to examine the results to find why they are what they are.

I'm still seeing game theory, as I understand it from my limited exposure, as a pseudo-science - a kind of cargo-cult science - academic masturbation, if you will.


Post 35

Sunday, November 17, 2013 - 6:30pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Steve,

Generally the person who designs the game assigns different numerical values to different outcomes of the game. Commonly its just "points" or "money"... its up to the game designer to determine what process results in a player getting more or less or even negative points.

It is true that games can be made that have little or no relation to real life.

In prisoner's dilemma for example, maybe a single play of the game might be like for how a simple minded person would act... but in real life most people don't just think about the rewards/punishment by the police but also by other people in the world.

But games can be made that correctly model real life. For example you can make a game that compares capitalist wealth allocation to socialist wealth creation like I had one before, there's an article on here somewhere about that.

Post 36

Monday, November 18, 2013 - 5:59amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
If in some taxonomy, 'game theory' is a subset of 'modeling', then what distinguishes 'game theory' from 'modeling?'

'Game theory' is somethng other than 'a game,' but before trying to weigh what 'game theory' is, what is 'a game?'

Games are often associated with entertainment, but more fundamental than that, they are associated with virtuality-- non real world simulation. When militaries participate in 'war games' they don't do so for entertainment purposes. So the concept 'game' is clearly not restricted to frivolous play. But they have arbitrary rules, and participants, when they play by the rules, are limited in their actions and choices. Participants often have an equal chance of prevailing. An exception might be a game like chess, or checkers, or tic tac toe, where there may or may not be some advantage to being the first player to act. And so, analysis of the rules of a particular game, such as considerations of first player advantage, start to get into 'game theory.'

But game theory, it seems, as a field, seems to claim to offer up insight into real world modeling. The assumption is, the rules of an arbitrary game adequately model some economic playing fields(often by referring to them as a playing field), such that focus on a virtual model/game constrained to the stated set of rules provides some more general insight about the real world.

Nothing wrong with making such a claim...if it is verified by calibration to ground truth in some manner. How often is that done? I don't mean in a circular fashion ("we set up these rules, hired grad students to play the game, and got these actual results") but rather "this game-model analysis accurately predicted these real world outcomes in these scenarios and failed in these.") If it is simply "we set up these pins and then knocked them down" then I don't see how much weight can be placed on generalizations based on the results of analyzing the rules.

It's not totally clear that actual warfare is restricted in any meanigful way to arbitrary rules; physics, maybe, though those aren't arbitrary, they are given.

Post 37

Monday, November 18, 2013 - 7:46amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
The difference between a game and a model is the distinction between an economy and a geography.

If in some taxonomy, 'game theory' is a subset of 'modeling', then what distinguishes 'game theory' from 'modeling?'
'Game theory' is somethng other than 'a game,' but before trying to weigh what 'game theory' is, what is 'a game?'


Game theory is about choices made by sentient beings seeking to maximize their returns. On the other hand mountains do not care if the rains erode them. We can model both, but game theory does not apply to mountains (or galaxies, etc.).

A game is a model of a hunt. The words share an etymology: to throw - the spear or the dice. Baseball, soccer, quoits, parchesi, gin rummy, ... they are all models in which nothing (and no one) actually gets killed: you can run the story again.

It is like the old joke (again that root word: jagd, iacta) about the civil engineer, the electrical engineer, and the computer programmer. ... and the programmer says, "Let's drive the car back to the point before the crash and try it with the windows rolled down."

Post 38

Thursday, November 21, 2013 - 6:17pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Steve,
Do they look for differences in results from different populations to see if it is a cultural bias, or a philosophical bias? Not that I read in that article. I get the sense that they want these results, taken from the stacked deck, to illustrate something rather than to examine the results to find why they are what they are.

I'm still seeing game theory, as I understand it from my limited exposure, as a pseudo-science - a kind of cargo-cult science - academic masturbation, if you will.
Mike posted a book link referencing a review where a researcher gathered all the data from all the people in the world (in order to "look for differences in results from different populations to see if it is a cultural bias ..."). Mike says they found key differences and that African Bushmen don't fall for visual illusions (like Westerners), but I** discovered that their kids do. Little, tiny, African Bushmen (or you could say Bushbabies or Bushkids or, to be politically correct you could say: Children of the !Kung San) fall for the visual illusions, but their parents don't. That indicates it's learned and not something genetic or whatever. These guys train themselves in spotting patterns in the world. This training immunizes them from falling for the Muller-Lyer illusion. But with the same training, anyone could accomplish that.

In short, Bushmen are people, too. We are all people, and we all need the exact same things (freedom, property rights, etc.).

Notice the difference between me and a petty, tyrant, totalitarian dictator (PTTD). The PTTD will say we all need the same things, but he is concrete bound and looking at needs that way. I am not concrete bound, and can therefore see deeper (more fundamental) human needs. I don't want to give the impression I'm special for that. Rand saw it, too. Peikoff sees it, too. Branden sees it, too. Kelley sees it, too. Dwyer sees it, too. Hell, most people who post here see it. It doesn't take a genius to see what humans really need, it just takes honesty and mental discipline.

Ed

**Mike doesn't like me bringing this up, but him and I are like the Green Lantern and the Yellow Lantern (opposite comic book super-heroes). Mike's good at finding and highlighting differences in things, I'm good at finding and highlighting similarities (differentiation is his strength, integration is mine). He's Heraclitus, I'm Parmenides. So it's no surprise that he says: "Look, we are all different!" and it is no surprise that I say: "Look deeper, we are all the same!"

:-)


Post to this threadBack one pagePage 0Page 1


User ID Password or create a free account.