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Friday, November 20, 2015 - 10:36pmSanction this postReply
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The libertarians' Gary Johnson: "We must face the fact that ISIS is a murderous, violent movement driven by Sharia ideology, not by the religion of Islam." (https://reason.com/blog/2015/11/19/gary-johnson-isis-refugees-syria-terror) This statement is a non-sequitur: Sharia is part of the religion of Islam.

 

Johnson continues, "We need not and should not be Islamophobic, but all who are free and wish to be free should be Shariaphobic." Since Sharia is part of the religion of Islam, wouldn't being Shariaphobic also make one Islamophobic, at least with respect to the Muslims who believe in imposing it?

 

The term "Islamophobia" is a PC term intended to obscure the fact that what motivates Islamic jihad is the religion itself, a fact which can easily be verified by consulting the Koran and the Hadith. So when did it become politically incorrect to fear ideologies that seek to enslave and kill us?!

 

Imagine a term like "Facistphobia," "Naziphobia" or "Marxistphobia"? Would anyone consider these to be legitimate concepts? The fact that a doctrine that commands its followers to kill the infidels and impose a dictatorship happens to be a religion should not blind us to its danger, nor disarm us from opposing it.

 

Admittedly, not every Muslim is a fundamentalist who believes in holy war. Nevertheless, the fact that there are Muslims who do not share that belief does not mean that those who do are not therefore Muslim, any more than the fact that there are Christians who do not share a belief in Biblical literalism means that those who do are not therefore Christian.

 

Just as all versions of Christianity are Christian, all versions of Islam are Islamic. "Islamophobia" prevents us from opposing any of its versions, and disarms us in our fight against its most virulent form.



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Friday, November 20, 2015 - 11:49pmSanction this postReply
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Excellent post, Bill!

 

Usually religion is a combination of some mystical mumbo-jumbo and moral commandments.  Islam is just that, but some of the moral content is also political.  And religions are nearly always filled with contradictions, parts that could only be taken literally by fools and the self-deluded.  But having said all of that, the fact remains that there are many good people, simple, sometimes uneducated working folk, who adopt the religion of the family they were born into which is often the religion common to their part of the world.  Every person needs a moral code, beliefs in what is right and wrong, and a way to express their sense of spirituality.  Religion is what has served those purposes (very poorly) from early times. 

 

At this point it is easy to see that many good people who are not intellectual and not compelled or even tempted to act upon those parts of the Koran or Hadith to harm anyone.  They believe their religion is a peaceful religion because that is what they have been told, that is how they hold it, and that is how they practice it, and how they see others around them practice it.  They see it as how they should act instead of something they are driven to force on others.  I'm not sure how they view Islamic terrorists.  But, to be religious is to let your mind accept contradictions and treat mystical mumbo-jumbo as serious wisdom.

 

We know how the jihadists see moderates: as enemies and to be destroyed.  The jihadist are fanatics and don't think.... instead of normal thought they are filled with dogma, hatred and rage.

 

It is a fact that the most cosmopolitian, kind, tolerant, moderate Muslim belongs to the very same Islam that the fundamentalist terrorist acts on behalf of.  Neither or them would want to admit that, but there is but one Islam and but one Koran.  The religion has a great many hateful statements the terrorists can take literally and focus on, and it also has benign, peaceful mumbo-jumbo that the good Muslims focus on.  That's the nature of religion and Islam has more than its share of ugly parts that make this split very easy and very severe. 

 

That's why I'm in favor of encouraging the good Muslims to reform Islam (it has to be done by Muslims, it's their project).  It will still be mumbo-jumbo for me, but if it splits the moderates from the fundamentalists in a significant way, and even makes the moderates more active in their opposition to jihad, that's an important gain in the this war.

 

That's why I don't object to "offending" the moderate Muslims by politely pointing out that the terrorists are Islamists.  They are Muslims.  That just makes it clear to people who are moderate and peaceloving that they need to address this issue and reform the religion.  Nothing less will work.  Denouncing the terrorists as not proper representatives of Islam doesn't fly - read the Koran.  Saying they are nuts, or abusing the religion, or a crazy sect.... none of those work.  Doing nothing would have worked if the fanatics weren't powered by great amounts of money and the modern technology of weapons and modern transportation.  We see this cancer of terrorism metastising at an ever-increasing rate.  What we see now will grow to world war proportions eventually if there isn't some kind of change.

 

The terrorists can mostly be killed, but if the ideology still exists, they will arise in the future and there will always be a few lurking in the shadows.  If all their economic funding is taken away that would be a massive help, but it still doesn't end the source - those vile ideas of Sharia.  That is why the moderates have to be the major force in the ideological war and it has to be done as a major reformation of the religion.

 

It really is a war and I think it has to be fought ideologically, economically, politically (alliances), and militarily.



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Saturday, November 21, 2015 - 12:43amSanction this postReply
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Notice that ISIS members kill muslims that in their eyes are not muslim enough as welllll as infidels.  In their eyes they are akin to the Maccabees that purified the jewish faith or even the knights of old Christianity that were considered the heroes and pillars of the christian faith.  These people follow the Koran to the very letter.  It is allll they knowwww.  I bet many of the leaders have the entire book memorized.  The ayatollah did and was considered a very learned and scholarly fellow, many of his earlier treatises on Islam are to this day referenced by Imams of that sect.  Look how well Iran has done under his "guidance".  I know a few really nice Iranians that insist they are Persians and hope one day Iran throws off the stranglehold of Islam so they can return to visit any remaining family they may have.

 

Today's western leaders are either idiots and or cowards.  How many times have we seen Obama decry on national press conferences "these terrorists are not representative of the muslim faith".  No "true" muslim would ever commit these acts of atrocity against their fellow man.

He is sadly mistaken.  These terrorists DO represent the religion and are pillars of it.  They are the result of taking a horrible philosophy and following it to its logical conclusion.  Still does not mean all muslims are bad, far from it.  They would be good and decent people regardless of what faith they followed.  Many remain silent and tolerate the extremists because of fear, or even guilt.  How do you turn in your own brother, cousin, father?  How do you as a moderate combat the extremist on moral grounds when these same men lead prayer groups 5 times a day and often quote scriptures to defend their actions?  If you speak too loudly you are called out as being of little faith and a bad muslim and shamed publicly.(or killed if you speak too loudly).



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Thursday, November 26, 2015 - 8:43amSanction this postReply
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Of related interest: 

 

Notes on Persecution and Toleration in the History of Christianity

George Smith

 

How to Tame Religious Terrorists

Stephen Hicks



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Thursday, November 26, 2015 - 7:31pmSanction this postReply
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Bill, 

I've asked this question many times in many places, but if people who adhere to Islam, them Muslim folks, are so dangerous, why isn't lower Eastern Michigan ablaze, or a war zone from the 100,000+ Muslims who live an hour away from me in a city called "Dearborn?"

 

No one is being harassed by Muslims, or bullied by Muslims, or forced to convert. 

 

Christians regularly harassed Muslims during an annual public Summer event in Dearborn. It got so bad that the organizers and sponsors, all Muslims,  decided to cancel it. 

 

Reports made the busybody Christians out to be the victims. 

 

If a bunch of Muslims tried converting Christians every year at the annual St. Patricks fair, attended by every race and religion,  there'd be a riot, and Muslims would still be made out to be the bad guys, and Christians the victims.  

 

I'm sick of the victim pimping. 



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Thursday, November 26, 2015 - 7:40pmSanction this postReply
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Stephen that article by Stephen Hicks is excellent.



Post 6

Thursday, November 26, 2015 - 10:36pmSanction this postReply
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Teresa,

 

This is what I got from Bill's post:

 

He said, "...Muslims who believe in imposing it [Sharia]"  Meaning he was not referring to all Muslims, but only those would impose Sharia on other with force.

 

He said, "...not every Muslim is a fundamentalist who believes in holy war. Nevertheless, the fact that there are Muslims who do not share that belief does not mean that those who do are not therefore Muslim...."  [my emphasis]

 

His point, made clearly in the last sentence, was that the term "Islamophobia" is a PC term used to intimidate people from opposing ANY version of Islam, including the version that the terrorists advocate.
-------------------

 

You asked, "...if people who adhere to Islam, them Muslim folks, are so dangerous, why isn't lower Eastern Michigan ablaze, or a war zone from the 100,000+ Muslims who live an hour away from me in a city called 'Dearborn?'"

 

The Koran and the Hadith are written such that they can be validly interpreted in ways that are violent and require of the faithful that they force Sharia on everyone and kill any non-believers who resist.  There are also parts of the Koran and the practice of Islam that are peaceful.  Until the ugly part of Islam are removed, there are likely to be people who will support the violent form of the religion.

 

I'm happy that the Muslims of Dearborn are chosing to submit to Allah's will in a peaceful way.  Most of the 1.8 billion Muslims are peaceful.  But none of the terrorists apply Islam in that way.  And large numbers of the people in Iran, Syria, Saudi Arabia, Yemen, Eygpt, Libya, Somalia and so forth are forcing people to convert or die.  Many of the Muslims in Northern Africa engage in genital mutilation of young girls.  There is a great deal of the written scriptures of that religion that need to be ignored to be peaceful, and a great many of the day to day practices that have to be ignored to pretend that it is peaceful at its root.

--------------------

 

When you read the Koran and the Hadith, you will never come away with an impression that this is a religion of tolerance and peace.  We are fortunate that the vast numbers of Muslims don't follow it more explicitly.

 

From the Hadith:

 

Bukhari (11:626) - [Muhammad said:] "I decided to order a man to lead the prayer and then take a flame to burn all those, who had not left their houses for the prayer, burning them alive inside their homes."

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"The holy war is a religious duty, because of the universalism of the Muslim mission and (the obligation to) convert everybody to Islam either by persuasion or by force."  From Ibn Khaldun, one of the most respected Islamic philosophers.
--------------

 

All Muslims are subjects of Islam.  Unfortunately those who practice it as written want to kill us if we don't convert and submit, while most of those who are peaceful are blind to the problems with their scripture or unwilling to change their religion so as to take away the moral platform being used by the terrorists.



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Saturday, November 28, 2015 - 8:50amSanction this postReply
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I don't recall hearing the word Islamophobia until this thread. From what I've seen, Bill and Steve don't have that, although I gather some of the more ignorant Christian folk in our country have it. (Jewish folk here seem immune to that phobia towards all Muslims.)

 

Up untill about 500 years ago, Christian leaders, as seen in the links I provided, were advocating murder as logical implication of their holy text. Their religion got toned down by rational liberal humanism, without converting them all to the latter full tilt. I expect that pattern is the only feasible ultimate way to end the Islamic terrorist attacks and their murderous revolutionary power grabs overseas. Of course those already developed into murderous brutes have to be continually defeated in the field, killed off, their havens taken for the peaceful factions. 



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