About
Content
Store
Forum

Rebirth of Reason
War
People
Archives
Objectivism

Post to this threadMark all messages in this thread as readMark all messages in this thread as unread


Post 0

Tuesday, January 18, 2005 - 1:07amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
I enjoyed the film but there are significant changes from the book which I would recommend more highly. Jodie Foster is great though!

Post 1

Tuesday, January 18, 2005 - 7:10amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
The book "Contact," by Carl Sagan, was one of the most intelligent sci-fi novels about how we might come into contact with intelligent life on other worlds. Sagan, an atheist, tried to present a balanced view of religious people, i.e. not simply write them all off as mere kooks but try to understand the origins of their beliefs while not siding with them either. Like many novels, it was tough to adapt "Contact" for the screen but Jim Hart did a good job. Note that Jim Hart is writting the script for "Atlas Shrugged."

Post 2

Tuesday, January 18, 2005 - 8:04amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
A good job?

I couldn't stand this film. It has just one sick and twisted message:

"Religion is just as valid as science."

What a load of crap!!!!


Post 3

Tuesday, January 18, 2005 - 8:36amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Marcus -- That's why I like the book better. (Also see Sagan's excellent book "A Demon-Haunted World," which treats many forms of superstition.) I wish the movie had come down firmly on the side of reason; I assume the decision was the director's and producer's as well as Hart's. Sagan had died before the movie was completed and thus he was not able to fine-tune the final product. I assume there will be no ambiguity in an "Atlas" movie!

Sanction: 5, No Sanction: 0
Sanction: 5, No Sanction: 0
Post 4

Tuesday, January 18, 2005 - 11:44amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit

OK,

 

I will not make any judgement on the book, but the film is diabolical.

 

They string you along, but ultimately let you down. Imagine how different it could have all been? Jodie Foster vs. the Religious nutters in court - she is proved correct and proceeds to show how bonkers religion is.

 

Everyone applauds and she goes on to continue her scientific work with universal approval.

 

However, this film does the complete opposite and denigrates science and reason. It deserves to be shunned!!!!

 

Can't think why it is up here on this site!!!!


Sanction: 1, No Sanction: 0
Post 5

Tuesday, January 18, 2005 - 1:28pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Marcus Bachler wrote:

> I couldn't stand this film. It has just one sick and twisted message: "Religion is just as valid as science."

Marcus:

I can understand your response to the film when looked at from one perspective, but let me offer another.

Although, in the overall context of the movie it is a subtle point that is not developed or made too explicit, near the end there was, in fact, some scientific evidence presented to corroborate Ellie's experiences. This was the 18-hours of static recorded during her "trip". This was objective, external data that indicated that what occurred was something much more than a mental hallucination. This information was suppressed for somewhat unclear political reasons, but I interpret it's inclusion as the defining moment of the film where science triumphs over religion. Unfortunately, most of the protagonists remain unaware of this information, but we, the viewers, have the information required to make the critical distinction between unverifiable religious "events" and what Ellie encounters. So, my view is that from the "internal" perspective of the movie's characters, there is an ambiguous parity of religion and science, but from the viewer's "external" perspective, that ambiguity is resolved in favor of science.

Certainly, one could wish for a different movie that was much clearer in its message about science vs. religion so as not to confuse the average viewer. However, I have always admired this movie for being more than a just a dialog between scientific and religious viewpoints. Through the inclusion of various political aspects throughout the plot, it tackles issues of how politics can be the handmaiden of religion by creating the very "ambiguity" we find presented at the end of the film. This is a thinking-man's film, and it is these subtler aspects that elevates it artistic value for me. The book by Carl Sagan was much more diffuse regarding these issues, which makes the movie a much more powerful and artistically successful experience.

The ending of this movie has always reminded be of the ending of Kay Nolte Smiths' novel "Mindspell". One major theme of that book was an examination of mysticism vs. reason. By the end of the book all mystical occurrences have been resolved and are shown to have rational explanations. Then in the final paragraphs something new is discovered that, upon initial examination, would seem to be a complete impossibility. The reader is left to reflect. As with "The Night of January 16th", this is a trick ending that places the reader on trial. After having shown throughout the novel, countless examples of mysticism being debunked through the use of reason, the reader must now decide where they come down on this final revelation. I see the movie "Contact" in a similar light. Rather than beat you over the head with its message, enough facts are presented to point towards the correct interpretation. However, the conclusion you draw will ultimately rest upon your metaphysical and epistemological framework.

Post 6

Wednesday, January 19, 2005 - 3:22pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Yes, contact *is* a subtle movie, and it *does* rely on the watcher to fully realize things.  I am a fan of the movie and book nonetheless.

Jeffrey explained things well.
My initial majorish complaint with the movie was that the knowledge of 18 hours of static was never widely known, and that Ellie (Foster) was fine with it; I remember her lecturing a group of visiting schoolchildren to the Very Large Array (of telescopes) on always asking questions, and pondering the universe.  This, instead of passionately defending the truth of her story where she should have been.

However, a straightforward triumph over unreason may have been too neat and un-thoughtprovoking. 

May have the message of the movie been, for some, "Aliens do really exist"? perhaps, for the uninitiated watcher.
May have it been, "have faith in your reason"? I hope not, but perhaps so for some.
Was it, "truth is attainable"? Yes.
Should and could it have been, "reason trumps"? probably.

Regardless, the book takes a more abstruse turn; it regards science and religion, and for me, was an expression of the elegance and majesty Sagan saw in the universe, probably too abstract for a major motion picture.  However, the film does well sticking to one premise of the book.
I highly recommend the book, too.  I read it when I was fourteen or so, and admired Ellie, the epitomal heroine, who, at twleve years old, seeks the nature of calculus and pi (whose nature, and a meaning of the book, is revealed for a spellbinding denoument!), and Hammond, the eccentric/genius/iconoclast capitalist.

And the movie; fine acting, decent special effects, thoughtful, and Jodie Foster.  Go rent/buy it!

-Michael

PS. Mr. Small, you ought to post more often; 1 post after 700+ members have joined?


Post 7

Wednesday, January 19, 2005 - 3:28pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Because the apparatus built according to the alien specs is still intact, why couldn't they just run the experiment again with a different observer, maybe carrying various kinds of time-keeping devices to measure what is happening?

Post 8

Wednesday, January 19, 2005 - 5:39pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Mark, Don't give away the movie, man.  I'll answer in a PM.


Post 9

Wednesday, January 19, 2005 - 7:04pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Caned N Able wrote:

> My initial majorish complaint with the movie was that the knowledge of 18 hours of static was never widely known, and that Ellie (Foster) was fine with it

My interpretation of the movie was that Ellie experienced about 18 hours of real-time, but that she was not told of the existence of the 18-hours of actual recorded static. Thus, she was left in the position of personally believing that what she experienced was real, but had no objective evidence to offer to others to validate her claims. To the rest of the world this placed her statements in the same league as those who profess to speak with God. Sure, it is maddening to see the heroic Ellie harmed by the covert actions of the politicians, but I thought this made a powerful point about what constitutes scientific evidence vs. unsubstantiated religious convictions. The viewer can experience the injustice of these events and I think that this is what gives the movie its emotional thrust, ultimately in service of reason.


Mark Plus wrote:

> Because the apparatus built according to the alien specs is still intact, why couldn't they just run the experiment again with a different observer, maybe carrying various kinds of time-keeping devices to measure what is happening?

Sure they likely could and will. The politicians know the truth, but they want to keep it from everyone else in an effort to control access to whatever lies "out there". Its the same old game, whether its about alien contact or the use of the "Harmonizer". Again, in this movie these messages are very subtle and will be missed by the majority of viewers, but the subtleness is one of the things I really enjoy. It leaves room for me to think about the implications of the events, and this is why this movie has stayed with me for such a long time.


Caned N Able wrote:

> PS. Mr. Small, you ought to post more often; 1 post after 700+ members have joined?

Oh jeez, don't get me started! :-)

Post 10

Thursday, January 20, 2005 - 1:08pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
C. Jeffrey Small:
"My interpretation of the movie was that Ellie experienced about 18 hours of real-time, but that she was not told of the existence of the 18-hours of actual recorded static. Thus, she was left in the position of personally believing that what she experienced was real, but had no objective evidence to offer to others to validate her claims."

Ah, you are completely right; for some reason, I remembered the scene as the diplomat speaking to Ellie when she ws actually speaking to..the president's advisor?
Either way, I think that my initial feeling was of disappointment that the world couldn't have known of this great thing, like they were cheated out of some great enlightening knowledge, and for what reasons?  Hopefully to inspire the audience towards objectivity.

thanks
-Michael


Post 11

Tuesday, April 14, 2009 - 3:08pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
It's been a while since I read it, but didn't Sagan's book also describe a related hypothetical search for a message inside of 'pi?'

I took this, when I read it, as a very imaginative hypothetical, a concept of what a strong unambiguous 'message' from a Creator might look like, buried inside of a mathematical constant.

I didn't take it as Sagan's belief that such a message actually existed, or even, a commentary or endorsement of 'R'eligion.

It was a brilliant piece of hypothetical, an artful answer to the question: what form might such an unambiguous 'message' from a Creator look like, if it existed?

In the book, calculating 'pi' out to some ghastly precision, and representing it in some base other than ten, and then forming a matrix from a subset of the sequence at some dimension, resulted in an image of a perfect circle with a cross in the middle, or some such; 'buried deep within the constant was a perfect image of the concept of 'pi.'

Cool. But, well hidden. Well below 'subtle.' Sort of, but not quite, the mathematical equivalent of those Talmud text Vanna White Wheel of Fortune search things; "I found Gov. Blogovich!"


I thought, by far, this was the most intriguing thread in the story, and it was totally culled from the movie, which ...I still watch every time I can. I never interpreted the movie as being all that supportive of 'R'eligion', it seemed to me more an objective acknowledgment of the widespread belief in 'R'eligion. I didn't blame the story for acknowledging that. And when dimpled Matt springs his 'prove you loved your father you' trap, it seemed rather straw man to me, not earth shattering. It was total subterfuge that left JF's character hanging out to dry, a withholding of facts at the hearing. She was publicly setup and knocked down, period. I didn't see how 'faith' came out well in the movie at all. It was as much a commentary on paranoid gov't bureacrartic paternalistic megalomania, 'they're not ready to hear this.'

"A celibate clergy is an especially good idea, because it tends to suppress any hereditary propensity toward fanaticism." Carl Sagan

Who doesn't miss Carl Sagan? He had a real talent for generating excitement and wonder. Feynman was another.





Post to this thread


User ID Password or create a free account.