RoR: Forum

Robert B.,

I understand where you are coming from, but I want to add that the distinction in the American hero monomyth as opposed to the classic hero monomyth is not my assertion, but of the authors of THE MYTH OF THE AMERICAN SUPERHERO (http://www.americansuperhero.com/, or the amazon link:
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0802849113/104-2733448-7007153?v=glance

I don't agree with everything they say, and I think in making the case the that antidemocracy equals fascism, they overlook the idea of a republic. But I think their argument that the American Hero Cycle is markedly different than the traditional hero tales is valid, and that Rand absorbed the difference through her preference of American fiction and her time in Hollywood.

The use of the word "fascism" has been debated here before, and I don't want to start that up again, but I do think that the authors of the book may be using it loosely, and that authoritarian may be more appropriate. But in the context of their argument, I can see why they would use the word fascism.

Post 21

Saturday, June 25, 2005 - 5:25pm

Robert B,

I take the link and find you talking about another list of 100 greatest. You are such an under achiever.

Post 22

Saturday, June 25, 2005 - 6:17pm

Robert D.,

Nah, I'm a loafer who just watches a lot of movies.

;^)

Post 23

Saturday, June 25, 2005 - 7:03pm

In Post 19, Scott reminds me to recommend Frank Miller's two extended "comic book" (a.k.a. "graphic novel") classics from the 1980s which revolutionized and rejuvenated the Batman concept: Batman: The Dark Knight Returns, and Batman: Year One.

These two stories were much more gritty, grown-up treatments of the Batman character than the one-dimensional Boy Scout I had grown up with during the '50s and '60s. Miller's vision of this character and his world was remarkable: his stories for the first time made real and plausible Bruce Wayne's rage against evil, and the parodies of our morally relativistic culture were brutal and unsparing. The artwork was almost primitive in its stylization, and I found the rapid visual cuts from scene to scene at times disorienting. But these noir tales somehow reached and held you at a primal level, as all good myths do, and they were the first "comic books" I'd ever read that could arguably be called "art."

You can find them in chain bookstores, and on Amazon.com, here and here.

Post 24

Saturday, June 25, 2005 - 7:54pm

Yep, I second Robert's high recommendation of those graphic novels. Astoundingly powerful and poignant.

Post 25

Saturday, June 25, 2005 - 8:08pm

I just returned from the theater and can vouch for this film as a "must see." A good friend has already watched it twice during his vacation. Sanction!

Post 26

Saturday, June 25, 2005 - 8:09pm

Sir Robert,

Who in our crew is out in Annapolis? I want to go tomorrow evening, and I want to go with our sort!

Julia

Post 27

Saturday, June 25, 2005 - 8:16pm

Julia, I don't know. But if you can round up a few of the troops, I'll be glad to see it again. I'll see it a third time when my daughter comes to visit us in another week.

If you can get a gang together, just drop me an email at: bidinotto@verizon.net

Post 28

Saturday, June 25, 2005 - 8:38pm

Working on it. If Andrew from New Zealand shows up, then we'll see some chaos.

Julia

Post 29

Saturday, June 25, 2005 - 8:42pm

Great, Julia. I don't know any Objectivists out here, so let me know what you can do.

Post 30

Sunday, June 26, 2005 - 2:58am

I am set to go and see this movie in the coming week, probably on Wednesday. Having read the review and comments here I can hardly wait - especially if Miller's influence is evident (I love his Batman and Daredevil stories).

Post 31

Sunday, June 26, 2005 - 7:09am

Batman to romantic interest Rachel Dawes (throwing her own quote back at her): "It's not who I am underneath, but what I do, that defines me."

My favorite line:
Batman to Ras Al Ghul: "I won't kill you, but I don't have to save you." Shades of Steve Ditko's Question and Mr. A!

The new batmobile was ingenious, awesome!!

I second Robert's recommendations for Frank Miller's Batman work. Batman: Year One is my all time favorite Batman comic. Don't forget Miller's

Batman: the Dark Knight Strikes Again, the sequel to Batman: the Dark Knight Returns.

Overall, I give this movie a B+. Definitely the best Batman movie ever made.

Post 32

Sunday, June 26, 2005 - 8:03am

Matthew, check out the revealing interview with the film's co-writer, David Goyer, available on the "Interview" section of the film's website. There are explicit allusions to Frank Miller's work, especially his Batman: Year One, which developed the "backstory" of Bruce Wayne becoming Batman.

Besides trying to integrate itself with that backstory, the film also goes into the years just before Bruce Wayne returns to Gotham, and shows how he became an astounding martial artist and crime fighter.

This Batman is also far more credible because he is one scary, scary dude. There's almost a hint of Anne Rice in this creature of the night, who soars in out of the mists and shadows, snatches bad guys, then swoops out of sight. The director and writer explicitly wanted a mythical approach to Batman, and that is what contributes to the power of the film. Simultaneously, they managed to walk the tightrope of realism, trying to keep everything within the realm of scientific and physical plausibility, and having all the fine actors say their lines "straight," and with restraint. There are no over-the-top histrionics and flamboyant posturing.

In short, they present this story in a style quite similar to Miller's. I think you'll be impressed.

Post 33

Sunday, June 26, 2005 - 12:58pm

I saw Batman Begins opening weekend, and like Robert, I left the theatre thinking "that was the best 8 bucks I've spent on a movie in a LONG time"....

This was a particularly refreshing feeling after the experience of watching Lucas' final hurrah...

I was particularly tickled to see SO much of my soon to be ex-city, Chicago, in the background. Having spent hours and hours hiking through the city streets of Chicago, I was able to spot a great deal of Chicago's magnificent and eclectic architecture in the movie; for me, this added a uniquely personal level to the movie

Who ever scouted the city for the locations really, really knew what they were doing. The day light skyline shots are some of my very favorite Chicago vistas. Also, the nighttime panoramic shots of the "narrows" are taken out from Lake Michigan looking back onto the awesome Chicago skyline (with the "narrows" added in via CGI).

Choosing the dramatic, awe-inspiring, and canyon-like "LaSalle Street" bank-corridor for the location of Wayne's corporate headquarters (which is in reality the Board of Trade building tweaked with some CGI magic), was to my mind a touch of brilliance in stylization.

"Lower Wacker" drive (a la The Blue's Brother's famous chase scene) is also prominently, and aptly featured in the film, along with Chicago's many draw-bridges.

In so many subtle ways, "Batman Begins" is an thrilling tribute to the city of Chicago, made all the more so, through its clever and well-integrated *stylization* of the city.

On this level, (and more) "Batman Begins" is an awesome tribute to the art and craft of Romantic Realism...

RCR

Post 34

Sunday, June 26, 2005 - 10:42pm

Folks, I just saw the film a second time, and you know what? I think I understated just how good it is!

Post 35

Monday, June 27, 2005 - 3:12am

Robert,

Thanks for the information :-) The website wouldn't work when tried it, but I'll have another go later.

I take it this is more of a "reboot" of the franchise rather than a strict prequel to the Tim Burton/Joel Schumacher movies? (In Burton's 1989 Batman it was shown that Jack Napier/the Joker was the killer of Bruce's parents, and the sequels followed or at least didn't contradict this continuity; I get the impression that in Batman Begins the killer is somebody else.)

MH

Post 36

Monday, June 27, 2005 - 6:52am

"Reboot" is right, Matthew. Forget about all the previous films, and certainly that abominable, campy TV series of the '60s. Batman Begins is the first film that takes pains to be totally loyal to the content and spirit of the original Batman comic books, and to the backstory they contained.

Previous films by Tim Burton et al. took all sorts of ridiculous liberties with the characters and their histories, and then camped it all up to boot. For example, they made the killer of Bruce Wayne's parents one "Jack Napier," then had him transform himself into the Joker. But in the original comic books their killer was named Joe Chill, and had no relation to the Joker. Batman Begins reclaims Joe Chill as the killer, and cleverly weaves him into a wider plot that integrates well with the existing history. The film also draws and builds directly on the relationship between Bruce Wayne and Police Commissioner Gordon as it was developed by Frank Miller in his terrific graphic novel, Batman: Year One -- a story that DC Comics commissioned in the mid-80s to fill in the gaps in the "official" Batman legend.

I can't begin to stress how brilliantly imaginative these new filmmakers were in this project, while remaining dedicated to the style, spirit and content of the source material. The closest comparison I can make is to the recently filmed Lord of the Rings trilogy, which also took itself seriously and remained utterly loyal to Tolkien's vision.

Trust me, when you see this one, you'll want to expunge from memory all that has come before.

Post 37

Monday, June 27, 2005 - 10:30am

I agree it is by far the best . One area of confusion .I didnt really understand the Liam Neeson character. What was his motivation.Vengeance turned against everyone.?
I could have enjoyed more detail on the gadgets, how he learns to use the batwings etc.These are small gripes though.
Bale was great, and Caine,Oldman,Wilkinson. There may also have been some americans in it I think!

Post 38

Monday, June 27, 2005 - 4:52am

Matt: In the comics, Joe Chill was always the guy who killed the Waynes. (I believe Bob Kane actually wrote that sequence of events.)

Post 39

Monday, June 27, 2005 - 12:58pm