RoR: Forum

Robert,

Thanks for posting that, it confirmed what I was hoping for. It's 1:25 EST and I'm due at the theater at 7pm. I never liked any of them that much after the first.

It could've always been better, but until now I didn't see the possibility of anyone outdoing what Keaton brought to the role, although Kilmer had a few moments.

rde
Holy Bat-ticket prices...

Post 1

Saturday, June 25, 2005 - 10:35am

I loved this movie. In fact, it, and the local raves, have inspired me to go pick up the animated series DVD.

That Boston reviewer is a joke. It boggles my mind that there are actually people out there that write and agree with that crap. I read it twice thinking I missed some hint of sarcasm. Even my socialist friend loved the movie. He might agree with some of the points in that review, but that didn't stop him from recognizing that it was a wonderful movie.

Post 2

Saturday, June 25, 2005 - 10:42am

Rich, I paid $9 bucks, and in terms of payoff, it was the best investment I've made at the movies in a long, long time.

This film starts deliberately, seriously, laying the psychological background first. This lends it a substance almost always absent in such fantasy creations. The backstory they've created for the gap in the Batman legend -- the transformation of little rich kid Bruce Wayne into a costumed Batman -- is also brilliant: totally true to the comic books, but inventive and original.

In addition, none of the characters, superhero or super-villains, is actually "super" in powers. They are human beings -- no more...but certainly no less: humans who have developed their powers to extraordinary levels. In short, this is actual "Romantic realism," drawn from a comic book hero, of all things.

Moreover, listen carefully to the little throwaway lines of dialogue. You'll find intelligent discussions of the rationale for Bruce Wayne exploiting mythic symbolism, explorations of the nature of justice versus vengeance, even references to Jung by a villain.

Finally, there are echoes of the Scarlet Pimpernel and even Francisco d'Anconia in the Bruce Wayne character that will resonate especially with Objectivists.

No, this ain't your average comic book on the big screen. Enjoy!

(Edited by Robert Bidinotto on 6/25, 7:28pm)

Post 3

Saturday, June 25, 2005 - 10:52am

Sarah, you raise an interesting point about your socialist friend liking the movie.

Fiction appeals to us on a metaphysical level -- or, rather, the sense of life level (which Rand describes as the preconceptual equivalent of metaphysics). Fiction touches our overall view of man's nature and his relationship to existence.

In contrast to the generally cynical European sense of life, the American sense of life is very individualistic, romantic and idealistic. Unlike (for example) French audiences, we Americans prefer self-assertive individualists as heroes, coherent and intelligible plots that lead to logical resolutions and happy endings. These sense-of-life generalizations are true of most Americans regardless of their explicit philosophy and politics. Frequently, their sense of life is far better than their explicit ideas.

That is no doubt the reason for your socialist friend's positive response -- and, surprisingly, the positive response of so many American film critics. I honestly would not have expected that. But their overwhelmingly rave reviews of Batman Begins, and also of the inspiring and equally individualism-based Cinderella Man, give me some hope: all is not lost if films of this quality are being made, and generating such positive responses -- even among intellectuals.

(Edited by Robert Bidinotto on 6/25, 7:30pm)

Post 4

Saturday, June 25, 2005 - 11:06am

Robert,

You mentioned Cinderella Man, which I saw two weekends ago, and you're spot on with that one too. How great that there are at least two films like this...that's exactly two more than I was expecting!

Thanks for the tips about things to watch for... fits nicely into me reading "Myths To Live By," per previous discussion of that.

Kewl...

rde

Post 5

Saturday, June 25, 2005 - 11:11am

OK. You got me Robert.

I'm salivating. I can't wait to see the movie.

I read the review and I found one thing comical. When this flavor of reviewer uses the name "Ayn Rand" in a derogatory fashion, it seems to be awfully hard to do so without a barrage of adjectives and modifiers.

From the review:

And getting kinda Mussolini on me. And it turns out that criminal kingpins (bad capitalists) and kinda Asian weirdo ninja Ayn Rand reading Nietzche loving superesque human death machine League guys are going to use psychotropic panic-inducing drugs to get everyone in Gotham to kill each other--starting in the poor section of town.

I almost see him gagging on her name. LOLOL...

Michael

Post 6

Saturday, June 25, 2005 - 11:12am

Robert Bidinotto said: In contrast to the generally cynical European sense of life, the American sense of life is very individualistic, romantic and idealistic. Unlike (for example) French audiences, we Americans prefer self-assertive individualists as heroes, coherent and intelligible plots that lead to logical resolutions and happy endings. These sense-of-life generalizations are generally true of most Americans regardless of their explicit philosophy and politics. Frequently, their sense of life is far better than their explicit ideas.

Perfect.

George

Post 7

Saturday, June 25, 2005 - 12:54pm

fin-de-millinneum world...

Have you ever heard anything more pretentious?

Post 8

Saturday, June 25, 2005 - 1:01pm

Per your review, Robert, may I give a hearty atheistic Amen!!!

I'm a big fan of superhero movies and the whole comic-book mythos in general, but I can say that this is one of the best superflicks I have seen. Christian Bale is the one, finally, who can play both Bruce Wayne and Batman. He has the edge, and the screen presence, that the hero needs, and he powerfully portrays the internal human conflict of the man beneath the mask.

It's a great story of overcoming one's limitations, of rising up against the challenges of life, of unapologetically asserting one's right to exist.

Kick ass movie. Highly recommended.

Post 9

Saturday, June 25, 2005 - 1:03pm

"Director Christopher Nolan approached this project with the innocence and seriousness of a child still enraptured by his hero, and with the guts to remain true to that vision as an adult."

This is an interesting thing to say, Robert. Your review is insightful, and I think you touched upon a major theme in that one sentence. In my article THE OBJECTIVIST HERO CYCLE (http://jungianobjectivism.tripod.com/id9.html), I make an argument that Rand's use of the secular American version of the Judeo-Christian hero as redeemer is partly to blame for accusations of fascism in her work and that it is linked to the accusations that her work appeals primarily to adolescents. Though I don't agree with the Boston reviewer's sentiments, the review does point to a very real characteristic of the American Hero myths, that a corrupted society can only be saved by a lone outsider because the citizens are either too weak or unable to save themselves, and the law is either corrupt or inept. The reviewer is right to say that the Batman movie is anti-democratic, which lends a fascist interpretation to heroes such as Batman (Frank Miller's depiction, on which the movie is partly based, plays up the fascist overtones of Batman.) In the HERO CYCLE, I look at the implications that Rand's use of this motif had on her work, but also challenge my own arguments in THE INCREDIBLE EVOLUTION (http://jungianobjectivism.tripod.com/id25.html) by claiming that Rand inverted the hero cycle and challenged her own Nietzschean sympathies with the evolution of her characters into the Objectivist hero mold.

Having said all this, I thought the movie was brilliant, and if I believe Spiderman 2 was the best comic book movie, (tied with Superman 2),Batman Begins is not a distance third!

Post 10

Saturday, June 25, 2005 - 1:10pm

Robert D., not only is it pretentious, the semi-literate bum couldn't even spell millennium -- or, for that matter, heroes. That last is understandable, as the concept is no doubt unfamiliar to him.

Luke, nice comments, and we are totally in agreement. The psychological and ethical dimensions of this film help it transcend the usual limitations of the superhero genre.

Post 11

Saturday, June 25, 2005 - 1:16pm

Robert,

I looked at that, but gave him the benefit of the doubt that it was the French spelling.

Post 12

Saturday, June 25, 2005 - 1:21pm

Joe, I think what Rand draws upon is not unique to American hero mythology, and it doesn't have its source in Christian legends, either. The hero myth you describe is timeless, as Joseph Campbell so well illustrated in his seminal book on the topic, Hero With a Thousand Faces. In fact, this familiar myth lies at the core of hundreds of successful films (and novels), as Hollywood "script doctor" Christopher Vogler demonstrates in his excellent book on film writing, The Writer's Journey.

For this reason, I don't see either fascistic or Nietszchean overtones in Batman Begins. Rather, I would say that Nietszche and the fascists -- like Rand, Bob Kane (the creator of Batman), Jerry Siegel (creator of Superman), Mickey Spillane, Robert B. Parker, plus the writers and directors of such films as Shane, The Matrix, Dirty Harry, Star Wars, Raiders of the Lost Ark, Lawrence of Arabia and thousands more -- were all either subconsciously or consciously drawing upon the same wellsprings of myth.

In the superhero genre, while I liked Superman II, I don't think it touches Batman Begins. For its unusually sophisticated psychological and ethical dimension, I'd even give the new Batman the edge over the second Spidey film, and the two X-Men movies, which I thought were terrific.

(Edited by Robert Bidinotto
on 6/25, 1:27pm)

(Edited by Robert Bidinotto
on 6/25, 1:31pm)

Post 13

Saturday, June 25, 2005 - 1:29pm

In the context used here , define 'fascism' please.....

Post 14

Saturday, June 25, 2005 - 1:55pm

Robert M., the use of the term "fascist" did not originate with me. Joe discusses it in the article he wrote, but in Part II of that article he seems to use the term very generally to refer to authoritarian, "anti-democratic" behavior and personality characteristics. This is far too fuzzy; it melds the morality of self-interest and/or the initiation of force and/or an autocratic personality style, along with hostility to political majoritarianism and/or populism. All too many notions, none of them logically necessitating or related to any of the others, are tossed into a blender here. For leftists, what comes out of the blender is a mindless epithet -- "fascist" -- which is thus nothing more than a smear. (I recall the same epithet used by the late liberal critic Pauline Kael to attack the films Dirty Harry and Death Wish back in the '70s.)

But let's not get this thread diverted down this rhetorical dead end, please!

Sticking with Batman Begins, it's very obvious that the protagonist is in the classic tradition of lone-wolf American individualist heroes. Because the Boston reviewer can't differentiate his politics from his ethics, he chooses to review the film in familiar political terms; Bruce Wayne thus becomes a "fascist." But the hatred of individualist characters by the hard left transcends politics because, as the reviewer also makes it clear, it's Bruce Wayne's lack of self-abasing altruism that he finds fundamentally objectionable.

(Edited by Robert Bidinotto on 6/25, 2:19pm)

Post 15

Saturday, June 25, 2005 - 2:00pm

Robert B.,

For its unusually sophisticated psychological and ethical dimension, I'd even give the new Batman the edge over the second Spidey film,

I'd have to agree that Batman Begins is a better film overall, but really, Peter and MJ getting together... I can't let Begins top out Spidey 2 as my favorite.

Sarah

Post 16

Saturday, June 25, 2005 - 2:12pm

Sarah, that's of course perfectly fine. A personal favorite may have nothing to do with a qualititative comparison.

In my article on the top ten films for Objectivists, I put Cash McCall in the number one spot. But it is by no means the best film qualitatively, or even my personal favorite. Among the great films I compared, it simply best captured uniquely Objectivist themes. Of the others I mentioned, I'd easily place October Sky and Apollo 13 ahead of Cash McCall in terms of quality and personal impact. And "personal impact" depends upon one's own private context of specific, individual values.

Post 17

Saturday, June 25, 2005 - 11:14am

I thoroughly enjoyed this movie. Batman's character reminded me very much of Francisco D'Anconia.

Simply awesome.

Post 18

Saturday, June 25, 2005 - 2:51pm

I agree, Heather. I mentioned that fact in my blog entry about the film.

Incidentally, I hope all of you posting here who truly love this film will give it a sanction click. (I obviously don't need any more of those little Atlas guys, but I want to make sure that this film gets your votes, which might encourage others to go see it.)

Post 19

Saturday, June 25, 2005 - 5:10pm